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When did Kurds and Persians first names use ?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: When did Kurds and Persians first names use ?
    Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 15:31
I tend to agree that modern claims that seem to move around the internet, are mostly "bunk!"


Always take stuff like this like a purgative! LOL
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 16:21
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince



The Corduene existed at the same time period as the Sassanids.  Maybe Kurds from West Iran went north and assimilated/mixed with the Corduene?

No one really knows what langauge the Corduene spoke, some say Mede or Sycthian dialect.
 
According to the ancient Judaic sources Corduene is explicitly the same as Kurditsan, a land of Kurds. Most likely Kurds used to live in several Kurdish states which were under either Iranian or Roman sway. Corduene and Adiabene for instance were both Kurdish territories next to each other, as the Islamic sources attest the Kurdishness of the later in addition to its early rulers' first names which are obviously of Iranian origin.      

The language of Adiabene was Assyrian, not Kurdish, and while the populations were mixed, the culture was Assyrian in nature, it was the home of our Church at one point, though many Iranians migrated there and adopted our culture, which their lines went on to become Assyrians today. Courdene (Kurdistan) was north of Adiabene (Assyria).

Originally posted by Quaere Verum

That probability is to be refuted in fact. Kirmanji Kurdish (the language of the bulk of Kurds) is essentially a blend out of Median and Scythian (northwestern and northeastern Iranian languages respectively) with a possible Hurro-Urartian (non-Indo-European but probably related to Caucasian languages) background which is mostly grammatic, and a significant range of southwestern Iranian loans and a couple of non-Iranian Indo-European words from Hittite. 

Median I can see, but clearly not Scythian, the only surviving language today that derives from Scythian is Ossetian, that's it, not to mention Sythian in nature is an Eastern Iranic language, not Western like Kurdish, so unless you can say there's a similarity between Kurdish and Ossetian (Which probably there is but even less so than Persian and Kurdish), Scythian is out of the question.
 
[quote]They are native to Middle East but they cannot be considered a non-Iranian people at all. Kurds are eminently a distinct Iranian people with regard to cultural, linguistic, and historical aspects; nevertheless they carry a Hurrian (probably related to Caucasian) background.

The Kurds are only Iranian in language, in genetics they are very similar to Assyrians, Armenians, Anatolian Turks, Syrians, Lebanese, and other north middle eastern populations, they're also usually further from their Iranian brethren to the east, if you're Kurdish, join 23andMe and you see how you'll score higher with the groups I mentioned.

In fact one of the closest language to Kurdish today is Baluchi, but genetically they are very far from one another.


So are Persians any other Iranian groups in Iran they all are related to their neighbours in genetics more then they are to other Iranians in the east.  When the Aryan tribes came they blended with the native population, how do we know that they did not Aryanise many other Iranians groups?.

I know that Y-dna is not reliable and gentics is not the most important part, as the Ancient Medes could of been native middle-easteners that were Aryanised.  Haplogroup J2 is found very high in North Iran.

Like I mentioned before Kurds don't only share Language with Iranians, they share culture and history like Kurds were their when the Sassanids were born, Ardashir 1 founder of the Sassanids was half Kurdish.    

Kurds have been Iranians for over 2500+ years and have always been part of what is known as Greater Iran.

Nobody is even sure that modern term Kurd is even related to the Qardu.  Their were also of tribes that had similar name to Kurd like the Cyrtii/Kyrtii.


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 17:01
So, which is it? Is it "Courduene?" or "Corduene?:, etc.?

One might well note that in my opinion, there could exist a great deal of difference between "Cour", and "Cor?"

Although, read this first!

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/197178.html

Edited by opuslola - 22-Jun-2010 at 17:06
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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 19:11
Originally posted by Ince


So are Persians any other Iranian groups in Iran they all are related to their neighbours in genetics more then they are to other Iranians in the east.  When the Aryan tribes came they blended with the native population, how do we know that they did not Aryanise many other Iranians groups?.

I know that Y-dna is not reliable and gentics is not the most important part, as the Ancient Medes could of been native middle-easteners that were Aryanised.  Haplogroup J2 is found very high in North Iran.

Like I mentioned before Kurds don't only share Language with Iranians, they share culture and history like Kurds were their when the Sassanids were born, Ardashir 1 founder of the Sassanids was half Kurdish.    

Kurds have been Iranians for over 2500+ years and have always been part of what is known as Greater Iran.

Nobody is even sure that modern term Kurd is even related to the Qardu.  Their were also of tribes that had similar name to Kurd like the Cyrtii/Kyrtii.

The problem is you're saying genetics are not important yet you're talking about haplogroup J2 and what not, if you want to continue talking about that, no problem, the Iranians (Not to be confused with Indo-Aryans although they do have the same origin) came into the middle east from the area where the original Indo-Iranians (Iranians and Indo-Aryans) originated, and this located is in South Central Asia (Around Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and norther parts of Pakistan), or perhaps the origins were a little north of that (Southern Kazakhstan), we see an earlier wave of Indo-Aryans (Not Iranians) come down to India and Pakistan where you see Indo-Aryan languages established today, perhaps a very small wave made it to the middle east through Iran (The Mitanni) but that's still under debate whether they were actually Indo-Aryans or not since the majority of their population spoke Hurrian (Caucasian language).

The Iranians were a later arrival, unlike the Indo-Aryans they did not go deep into South Asia, instead they roamed north into the steppes (Scythians and later the Sarmatians who became Alans), into the middle east through Iran (Medes, Persians, and Parthians), and many remained scattered around South Central Asia (Indo-Scythians which are also known as Saka for most part), clearly the middle eastern Iranian heritage comes from the 3 I mentioned (Persian, Median, and Parthian), while those who still remain in South Central Asia like Pashtun, Pamirs, Tajikis, and so on have an Indo-Scythian heritage (Even though many of Tajiks and Afghans adopted Farsi as their language), and the only legacy for the northern Iranians (Scythians and Sarmatians/Alans) would be the modern Ossetians.

Of course you bring up J2 into this, haplogroup J2 might have originated in Anatolia but it spread out of there long time ago, when we're dealing with Iranians, the time-line is only 4000-5000 years ago at max, haplogroup J2 spread out of Anatolia thousands of years before that, meaning when the Indo-Iranians were being developed in South Central Asia, there was already a number of haplogroups mixed there such as R1a1a, J2, R2, and L2/L3, so the original Indo-Iranians were a mix of these haplogroups for most part.

Also another thing, the term Qardu is indeed Kurd, till this day we call Kurds Qurdayeh, and the Q is not a K, but rather a hard Q like the Arabic letter Qaaf.


Edited by Putty19 - 22-Jun-2010 at 19:13
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 05:37
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince


So are Persians any other Iranian groups in Iran they all are related to their neighbours in genetics more then they are to other Iranians in the east.  When the Aryan tribes came they blended with the native population, how do we know that they did not Aryanise many other Iranians groups?.

I know that Y-dna is not reliable and gentics is not the most important part, as the Ancient Medes could of been native middle-easteners that were Aryanised.  Haplogroup J2 is found very high in North Iran.

Like I mentioned before Kurds don't only share Language with Iranians, they share culture and history like Kurds were their when the Sassanids were born, Ardashir 1 founder of the Sassanids was half Kurdish.    

Kurds have been Iranians for over 2500+ years and have always been part of what is known as Greater Iran.

Nobody is even sure that modern term Kurd is even related to the Qardu.  Their were also of tribes that had similar name to Kurd like the Cyrtii/Kyrtii.

The problem is you're saying genetics are not important yet you're talking about haplogroup J2 and what not, if you want to continue talking about that, no problem, the Iranians (Not to be confused with Indo-Aryans although they do have the same origin) came into the middle east from the area where the original Indo-Iranians (Iranians and Indo-Aryans) originated, and this located is in South Central Asia (Around Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and norther parts of Pakistan), or perhaps the origins were a little north of that (Southern Kazakhstan), we see an earlier wave of Indo-Aryans (Not Iranians) come down to India and Pakistan where you see Indo-Aryan languages established today, perhaps a very small wave made it to the middle east through Iran (The Mitanni) but that's still under debate whether they were actually Indo-Aryans or not since the majority of their population spoke Hurrian (Caucasian language).

The Iranians were a later arrival, unlike the Indo-Aryans they did not go deep into South Asia, instead they roamed north into the steppes (Scythians and later the Sarmatians who became Alans), into the middle east through Iran (Medes, Persians, and Parthians), and many remained scattered around South Central Asia (Indo-Scythians which are also known as Saka for most part), clearly the middle eastern Iranian heritage comes from the 3 I mentioned (Persian, Median, and Parthian), while those who still remain in South Central Asia like Pashtun, Pamirs, Tajikis, and so on have an Indo-Scythian heritage (Even though many of Tajiks and Afghans adopted Farsi as their language), and the only legacy for the northern Iranians (Scythians and Sarmatians/Alans) would be the modern Ossetians.

Of course you bring up J2 into this, haplogroup J2 might have originated in Anatolia but it spread out of there long time ago, when we're dealing with Iranians, the time-line is only 4000-5000 years ago at max, haplogroup J2 spread out of Anatolia thousands of years before that, meaning when the Indo-Iranians were being developed in South Central Asia, there was already a number of haplogroups mixed there such as R1a1a, J2, R2, and L2/L3, so the original Indo-Iranians were a mix of these haplogroups for most part.

Also another thing, the term Qardu is indeed Kurd, till this day we call Kurds Qurdayeh, and the Q is not a K, but rather a hard Q like the Arabic letter Qaaf.


Persians in Iran have the same Y-dna make up of as Kurds do.   To say Kurds are natives because they are related to middle-easterners.  People that live in the Ilam province in Iran are really Elamites? because the name is still the same? Lurs are considerd to be natives that were Persionized, so they are not Iranians as well?

You are still ignoring the important fact Kurds are considerd Iranian and I never heard who calls Kurds Qurdayeh that was the first time I heard it. The Arabs use to call Kurds Akrad when they invaded Sassanids and not only that but they reffered to all non Persian iranians as Akrad.  In Turkey they call Kurds Kurt and in Iran Kord. 

The Qardu existed so long ago.  No one is really sure if all current Kurdish tribes come from the Qardu if any, as they only existed in small part of what is now Kurdistan, when Kurds lived in Fars in the Sassanids times and central Anatolia today.   Modern day Kurds have Iranian culture and Language, they became Iranian.  Many iranian tribes were absorbed into what is Kurds today, to say they have no Iranian ancestory is crazy.   You are also forgeting the Mittani and the Sycthian impact on the Kurds.  So many Aryan/Iranian elements yet you are saying they are not Iranians? For thousands of years now Kurds have kept their Iranian language and Culture even after by non Iranian rulers like Arabs and Turks.   Then again everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As for the Mittani, their is a Kurdish tribe by the name of Sindi and Matinni that exists to this day.





Edited by Ince - 23-Jun-2010 at 11:45
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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 12:04
Originally posted by Ince


Persians in Iran have the same Y-dna make up of as Kurds do.   To say Kurds are natives because they are related to middle-easterners.  People that live in the Ilam province in Iran are really Elamites? because the name is still the same? Lurs are considerd to be natives that were Persionized, so they are not Iranians as well?

You are still ignoring the important fact Kurds are considerd Iranian and I never heard who calls Kurds Qurdayeh that was the first time I heard it. The Arabs use to call Kurds Akrad when they invaded Sassanids and not only that but they reffered to all non Persian iranians as Akrad.  In Turkey they call Kurds Kurt and in Iran Kord. 

The Qardu existed so long ago.  No one is really sure if all current Kurdish tribes come from the Qardu if any, as they only existed in small part of what is now Kurdistan, when Kurds lived in Fars in the Sassanids times and central Anatolia today.   Modern day Kurds have Iranian culture and Language, they became Iranian.  Many iranian tribes were absorbed into what is Kurds today, to say they have no Iranian ancestory is crazy.   You are also forgeting the Mittani and the Sycthian impact on the Kurds.  So many Aryan/Iranian elements yet you are saying they are not Iranians? For thousands of years now Kurds have kept their Iranian language and Culture even after by non Iranian rulers like Arabs and Turks.   Then again everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As for the Mittani, their is a Kurdish tribe by the name of Sindi and Matinni that exists to this day.


We (Assyrians) call Kurds Qurdayeh which comes from Qardu, also you can't base their background on Y-DNA haplogroups, this is wrong, it's the autosomal tests that count which tracks all your lines and tries to figure out your ethnicity, in this test the Kurds score higher with other middle eastern populations rather than the Iranians in general.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 13:01
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince


Persians in Iran have the same Y-dna make up of as Kurds do.   To say Kurds are natives because they are related to middle-easterners.  People that live in the Ilam province in Iran are really Elamites? because the name is still the same? Lurs are considerd to be natives that were Persionized, so they are not Iranians as well?

You are still ignoring the important fact Kurds are considerd Iranian and I never heard who calls Kurds Qurdayeh that was the first time I heard it. The Arabs use to call Kurds Akrad when they invaded Sassanids and not only that but they reffered to all non Persian iranians as Akrad.  In Turkey they call Kurds Kurt and in Iran Kord. 

The Qardu existed so long ago.  No one is really sure if all current Kurdish tribes come from the Qardu if any, as they only existed in small part of what is now Kurdistan, when Kurds lived in Fars in the Sassanids times and central Anatolia today.   Modern day Kurds have Iranian culture and Language, they became Iranian.  Many iranian tribes were absorbed into what is Kurds today, to say they have no Iranian ancestory is crazy.   You are also forgeting the Mittani and the Sycthian impact on the Kurds.  So many Aryan/Iranian elements yet you are saying they are not Iranians? For thousands of years now Kurds have kept their Iranian language and Culture even after by non Iranian rulers like Arabs and Turks.   Then again everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As for the Mittani, their is a Kurdish tribe by the name of Sindi and Matinni that exists to this day.


We (Assyrians) call Kurds Qurdayeh which comes from Qardu, also you can't base their background on Y-DNA haplogroups, this is wrong, it's the autosomal tests that count which tracks all your lines and tries to figure out your ethnicity, in this test the Kurds score higher with other middle eastern populations rather than the Iranians in general.


That depends on which region they did these tests on.  Y-dna make up of Kurds in Anatolia differes from Kurds from Iraq.  Anatolian Kurds for example have lower frequancey of J2 and no J1, where as Kurds of Iraq have higher frequancey of J2 and some J1.   Intermixing with local population will cause different genetic make up of Kurds from different regions.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 13:12
Now it seems whe have the "Qurdayeh which comes from Qardu", as well as "The Arabs use to call Kurds Akrad when they invaded Sassanids and not only that but they reffered to all non Persian iranians as Akrad. In Turkey they call Kurds Kurt and in Iran Kord."

But, it seems all answers point to or are related in sound of spelling with the word "Kurd!"

And re. the "Q" spelling we are told; "..and the Q is not a K, but rather a hard Q like the Arabic letter Qaaf."

Does that mean it is similar to the word "Cumquat / Kumquat?"

Does anyone know what the Hebrew word for Kurd might be?

Isn't it true that early Arabic like Hebrew was at one time a consonant only written language?

Thus, it seems to me that KuRD, whould be spelled in both languages as K-R-D! Or maybe Q-R-D?, and due to similar sounds or mistaken sounds it might well also have been written in other languages as C-R-D?, or even Q-R-D?

Is not the earliest representation of the Kurds one of a group of pastorialist or herders of sheep or goats, etc.?

Here is a site with a humorous look at the problem!

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kurds

Now there can be no doubt that Kurds eat a lot of Curds! So, just why could not a naming connection also be made?

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/linguistics/lectures/05lect22.html

Edited by opuslola - 23-Jun-2010 at 14:11
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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 21:15
Originally posted by Ince


That depends on which region they did these tests on.  Y-dna make up of Kurds in Anatolia differes from Kurds from Iraq.  Anatolian Kurds for example have lower frequancey of J2 and no J1, where as Kurds of Iraq have higher frequancey of J2 and some J1.   Intermixing with local population will cause different genetic make up of Kurds from different regions.


Once again you're bringing Y-DNA haplogroups into the picture, these don't mean anything at all, check this out:

Age of the term Kurd --> Less than 3000 years.
Age of J2 --> 18,000 years.

The two have nothing to do with one another, when you speak of DNA tests only speak of significant tests, Y-DNA are mostly useful for deep ancestry that tracks us all the way back to Africa, being a J1 or a J2 does not prove a Kurdish ancestry, the autosomal tests I told you about on the other hand does prove where Kurds generally fit in, and as I said, the Kurds score higher with north middle eastern populations rather than Iranian ones.

In fact, the Kurds have a lot in common with Assyrians, people bitch over who was there first and what not, the truth is they were both there, the only difference is the Kurds adopted an Iranian language and the Assyrians adopted a Semitic one, so I'm pretty sure people in that region had common ancestors and that includes both Assyrians and Kurds along with others like Armenians, Anatolian Turks, so on.


Edited by Putty19 - 23-Jun-2010 at 21:15
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  Quote Zert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 00:30
Originally posted by opuslola


Here is a site with a humorous look at the problem!

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kurds



LOLThat's hilarious.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 05:45
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince


That depends on which region they did these tests on.  Y-dna make up of Kurds in Anatolia differes from Kurds from Iraq.  Anatolian Kurds for example have lower frequancey of J2 and no J1, where as Kurds of Iraq have higher frequancey of J2 and some J1.   Intermixing with local population will cause different genetic make up of Kurds from different regions.


Once again you're bringing Y-DNA haplogroups into the picture, these don't mean anything at all, check this out:

Age of the term Kurd --> Less than 3000 years.
Age of J2 --> 18,000 years.

The two have nothing to do with one another, when you speak of DNA tests only speak of significant tests, Y-DNA are mostly useful for deep ancestry that tracks us all the way back to Africa, being a J1 or a J2 does not prove a Kurdish ancestry, the autosomal tests I told you about on the other hand does prove where Kurds generally fit in, and as I said, the Kurds score higher with north middle eastern populations rather than Iranian ones.

In fact, the Kurds have a lot in common with Assyrians, people bitch over who was there first and what not, the truth is they were both there, the only difference is the Kurds adopted an Iranian language and the Assyrians adopted a Semitic one, so I'm pretty sure people in that region had common ancestors and that includes both Assyrians and Kurds along with others like Armenians, Anatolian Turks, so on.


I know the age of J2,  J2 is found in high frequancey in the middle-east and southern europe.  But at low levels in cenetral asia.   Even tho Y-dna is not that reliable due to not knowing the genetic make up of the ancient middle-easteners.

I know Kurds and Assyrians have many things in common, they are neighbours and that would be the case plus I am sure many Assyrians were Kurdified. 
Ancient Iranians were heavily influenced by Assyrians, just look at Persepolis.

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  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 07:02

Originally posted by Putty19

The language of Adiabene was Assyrian, not Kurdish,

I am sorry but Assyrian language was already extinct by that time. Adiabene is founded in 15, whilst the spoken Assyrian Akadian most likely began to completely fade away before the 4th century BC. Its total extinction is based on the last text pertaining to it which belongs to the fist century. The official (not native) language of Adiabene was Aramaic, which brings no wonder nor any point about since this Semitic language was already the lingua franca and an official language of the whole Iranian empire. Even there are 1000 Aramaic words (known as Hezarvash) which were used in the official letters written all over the territory of Iranian languages (Sogdian, Parthian, Middle Persian, etc.). Also it had a huge impact on Semitic speaking folks of Mesopotamia to the degree that even Jesus Christ as a Jewish by blood spoke Aramaic for sure (with the appearance of Adiabene simulatneously).

Originally posted by Putty19

the culture was Assyrian in nature

I doubt it at all. For your knowledge the first and the only time that the term Assyria appears in the history of Adiabene was when Romans conquerred it and named it Assyria. Afterwards some other western historians followed such a Roman designation, which does not match with the facts that we know about Adiabene for sure:

-Its ethnic majority is uncertain up to now but we know that Adiabene was socially a mixture of various people.

-There was most likely an Iranian ruling class over there since its rulers' forenames are to be explained by Iranian etymology (e.g. Izates, Meharaspes, etc.).
 
-Its official language was Aramaic, like the other western parts of Iranian territories (since the reign of the Cyrus the Great who put an end to the Babylonians and ancient Assyrians bestiality and respective languages forever and made Aramaic as the official langauge and lingua franca in the entire mesopotamia, though it was later replaced by Arabic in the post-Islamic era).

-Romans conquer Adiabene some 100 years after its appearance in the history and then name it Assyria after its annexation to their province of Assyria.

-Afterall Arabs invade Adiabene and there they only face "Al-Akrad", which is Arabic for "The Kurds" indeed.

-After the collapse of Adiabene, no other people ever declared to be related to it, but Kurds did in fact. Hedhbani Kurds, whom Saladin was their descendant, are named after Adiabene.

-Adiabene fame could be speculated mostly due to its conversion into Judaism and the later assistance that it contributed to the other Jews in their fight against Romans. As a matter of fact today all Jews from the respective area do consider themselves ethnic Kurds and not Assyrian, however their religious language is-the same as the bulk of Middle Eastern Jews, an Aramaic speech. Their respective Neo-Aramaic speech is even referred to as "Kurdit" by the other Jews in fact.

As I have already affirmed, the ethnic majority of Adiabene is uncertain but if we were ever going to presume its majority then it would not be that much hard to recognize the prevailing Kurdish (Iranian) identity of Adiabene in accordance with the above facts. 

  

Originally posted by Putty19

it was the home of our Church at one point

It firstly converted into Judaism very soon after getting established which paved way to the later conversion into Christianity subsequently. By the way you cannot overlook or deny the existence of Judaism and Zoroastrianism at the same time over there.

Originally posted by Putty19

though many Iranians migrated there and adopted our culture, which their lines went on to become Assyrians today.

Any accounts? By the way what are the elements of your ancient Assyrian culture that any Iranian folk could ever adopt?

Originally posted by Putty19

Courdene (Kurdistan) was north of Adiabene (Assyria).

As I have already said the first and the last time that the term Assyria was applied to Adiabene was after its conquest by Roman invadors in 115-116 when they annexed it to the Roman Province of Assyria. I am sure you are aware of the fact that the Kingdom of Adiabene became over in the very same year-116!

Originally posted by Putty19

Median I can see, but clearly not Scythian

I am not gonna doubt your know-how, but in terms of Iranian linguistics you seem to have a vague idea. The Scythian essence of Kirmanji Kurdish may even be much clearer than that of Median in fact. Since we only know a few words from Medes' language which are mentioned within the ancient Greek accounts whilst on the other hand there are a pretty good amount of ancient and middle Scythian (particularly Khotanese Scythian) materials at reach (e.g. retention of ancient "c-" in the common Iranian verb for "to go" is exclusively restricted to Scythian, Kurdish, and Ossetic: Old Iranian "cyev", Avestan "shyev", Parthian "shew", Gilaki "shu-", Azari "sho-", Middle Persian "shew", New Persian "sho-",  Scythian "cu-", Kurdish "cu-", Ossetic "cu-".) 


Originally posted by Putty19

the only surviving language today that derives from Scythian is Ossetian, that's it, not to mention Sythian in nature is an Eastern Iranic language, not Western like Kurdish

For your knowledge, again, the case of being western, eastern, southern, or northern, is merely theoretical in terms of Iranian linguistics. For instance Kurdish as a theoretically Northwestern Iranian language has been disputed to represent Southwestern characteristics (despite whether the conclusions are reasonable or not). Linguistic theories are to be alterred or refuted based on rational reasonings out of authentic materials.

Originally posted by Putty19

so unless you can say there's a similarity between Kurdish and Ossetian (Which probably there is but even less so than Persian and Kurdish)

Indeed the essential likenesses between Kirmanji Kurdish and Ossetic outnumber those between Kirmanji Kurdish and Persian (I am sure you are not gonna reckon loans into similarities anyway). I myself am conversant with Persian and Kurdish languages as well as am a linguistic buff, particularly regarding to Iranian linguistics (which of course encompasses Scythian and Ossetic).

Originally posted by Putty19

Scythian is out of the question.

Not at all.

Originally posted by Putty19

The Kurds are only Iranian in language,

That is definitely wrong. Historically and culturally, Kurds do share their very exclusive part amongst Iranian peoples.

Originally posted by Putty19

in genetics they are very similar to Assyrians, Armenians, Anatolian Turks, Syrians, Lebanese, and other north middle eastern populations, they're also usually further from their Iranian brethren to the east, if you're Kurdish, join 23andMe and you see how you'll score higher with the groups I mentioned.

In accordance with the following genetic researches Kurds are:

"Similar to Azeris [do you need to be reminded of Azeris Iranian origins?], Ossetians [an Iranic people indeed], and Armenians" ~ Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, et al. (November 2000).

"Possibly closer to European rather than Caucasian." ~ Nasidze I, Quinque D, Ozturk M, Bendukidze N, Stoneking M (July 2005). "MtDNA and Y-chromosome variation in Kurdish groups". ~ Annals of Human Genetics 69 (4): 401–12

"Sharing close similarity with Georgian in terms of MtDNA sequence." ~ Comas D, Calafell F, Bendukidze N, Fa?an?s L, Bertranpetit J (May 2000). "Georgian and kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 112 (1): 5–16.

"Originating from the same Old Mediterrenean ancestry along with Turks, Iranians, Jews, Lebandese and other Western and Eastern Mediterrenean peoples." ~ Arnaiz-Villena A, Karin M, Bendikuze N, et al. (April 2001). "HLA alleles and haplotypes in the Turkish population: relatedness to Kurds, Armenians and other Mediterraneans". Tissue Antigens 57 (4): 308–17.

"Close to  Anatolian Turks along with the other East Mediterrenean peoples" ~ Arnaiz-Villena A, Martinez-Laso J, Alonso-Garci? J (September 2001). "The correlation between languages and genes: the Usko-Mediterranean peoples". Human Immunology 62 (9): 1051–61

"Relatedness with Jews [by blood]" ~ Nebel A, Filon D, Brinkmann B, Majumder PP, Faerman M, Oppenheim A (November 2001). American Journal of Human Genetics 69 (5): 1095–112.

Accordingly there is definitely no such a point in regards with genetics to dismiss the Iranian essence of Kurdish people.

Also I didn't notice a single direct mention to Assyrians within the above sources, as well as you had omitted Iranians obviously. Although I believe it is not intentionally.

Originally posted by Putty19

In fact one of the closest language to Kurdish today is Baluchi

That is wrong. If you once excluded Southwestern loans, there would remain no exclusive similarities between them both unless some dialectal likenesses which are hardly to imply any significant connection out of the theoretically common Northwestern Iranian characteristics (e.g. adding an initial "h-": Kurdish "hesin" ~ Baluchi "hesin", Kurdish "hesp", Baluchi "hesp"; which also is noticeable amongst other Iranian languages indeed and thus not that much remarkable).   

Originally posted by Putty19

but genetically they are very far from one another.

And it has nothing to do with the fact that Kurds are an Iranian people, unless fallaciously. I recommend you to observe various aspects of Kurdish people (their culture, their feasts, their calender, their months, their lifestyle, their proverbs, their myths, their folklore songs, their costumes, etc.) and compare them with those of the other Iranian poeples in order to appreciate the very Iranian tone of Kurdish people in practice.



Edited by Quaere Verum - 24-Jun-2010 at 07:10
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 16:54
Even the Kurdish flag is Iranian.  It's basically the pre-1979 flag of Iran upside down and without the Lion.


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 17:01
May I interject and ask what may be a stupid question, but just how does anyone know that the Assyrian language was extinct in 15 CE? Or even 15 BCE?

Just how would anyone know?

It takes a lot of "Gaul" to make such a statement, even though we know that there seemed to be a lot of "Gauls" / "Gals" to chose from!

Edited by opuslola - 24-Jun-2010 at 17:05
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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 23:19
Originally posted by Quaere Verum

I am sorry but Assyrian language was already extinct by that time. Adiabene is founded in 15, whilst the spoken Assyrian Akadian most likely began to completely fade away before the 4th century BC. Its total extinction is based on the last text pertaining to it which belongs to the fist century. The official (not native) language of Adiabene was Aramaic, which brings no wonder nor any point about since this Semitic language was already the lingua franca and an official language of the whole Iranian empire. Even there are 1000 Aramaic words (known as Hezarvash) which were used in the official letters written all over the territory of Iranian languages (Sogdian, Parthian, Middle Persian, etc.). Also it had a huge impact on Semitic speaking folks of Mesopotamia to the degree that even Jesus Christ as a Jewish by blood spoke Aramaic for sure (with the appearance of Adiabene simulatneously).


What, did I break your Kurdish heart that I mentioned Adiabene and Assyrian being one of the same? I'm sorry, but it is what it is and you need to deal with it, you talk about language, first of all there's no such thing as Assyrian language to begin with, there are only languages that are spoken by Assyrians, Akkadian happens to be the older language, and Aramaic was the newer language, the ancient Assyrians themselves switched Akkadian to Aramaic during the 8th century BC when Assyria was at its might, therefore the Aramaic that was spoken in Adiabene was there because the ancient Assyrians themselves switched the official language, meaning both of Akkadian and Aramaic were languages of the ancient Assyrian people and thus, Assyrian languages.

Also for your information the Assyrians contributed to Aramaic so much that even the modern Jews call their Hebrew script (Which happens to come from Aramaic) Ketav Ashuri, and that's because it's the ancient Assyrian version of the Aramaic letters.

I doubt it at all. For your knowledge the first and the only time that the term Assyria appears in the history of Adiabene was when Romans conquerred it and named it Assyria. Afterwards some other western historians followed such a Roman designation, which does not match with the facts that we know about Adiabene for sure:

-Its ethnic majority is uncertain up to now but we know that Adiabene was socially a mixture of various people.

-There was most likely an Iranian ruling class over there since its rulers' forenames are to be explained by Iranian etymology (e.g. Izates, Meharaspes, etc.).
 
-Its official language was Aramaic, like the other western parts of Iranian territories (since the reign of the Cyrus the Great who put an end to the Babylonians and ancient Assyrians bestiality and respective languages forever and made Aramaic as the official langauge and lingua franca in the entire mesopotamia, though it was later replaced by Arabic in the post-Islamic era).

-Romans conquer Adiabene some 100 years after its appearance in the history and then name it Assyria after its annexation to their province of Assyria.

-Afterall Arabs invade Adiabene and there they only face "Al-Akrad", which is Arabic for "The Kurds" indeed.

-After the collapse of Adiabene, no other people ever declared to be related to it, but Kurds did in fact. Hedhbani Kurds, whom Saladin was their descendant, are named after Adiabene.

-Adiabene fame could be speculated mostly due to its conversion into Judaism and the later assistance that it contributed to the other Jews in their fight against Romans. As a matter of fact today all Jews from the respective area do consider themselves ethnic Kurds and not Assyrian, however their religious language is-the same as the bulk of Middle Eastern Jews, an Aramaic speech. Their respective Neo-Aramaic speech is even referred to as "Kurdit" by the other Jews in fact.

As I have already affirmed, the ethnic majority of Adiabene is uncertain but if we were ever going to presume its majority then it would not be that much hard to recognize the prevailing Kurdish (Iranian) identity of Adiabene in accordance with the above facts.


What's interesting is on one end, you say most of the region were Kurds, on the other hand you recognize the language of the people was Aramaic, hmm, I wonder, where did all these Iranian speaking Kurds come from and where did the so-called Aramaic speaking Kurds disappear to? Anyways, it's non sense, the Aramaic speaking Assyrians lived in proper Assyria (Adiabene) and the Kurds lived north of them for most part, it always has been that way throughout ancient history.

Does that mean Adiabene did not have an Iranian presence? No it does not mean that, but clearly it was not strong enough to influence the language change from Aramaic to the newly Iranian tongue.

As far as Jews go, for your information they never think of themselves as Kurds, but rather Jews, they call themselves Kurdish Jews because they come from an area today which most people know it as Kurdistan, much so like Yemeni Jews, Moroccan Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, so on.

It firstly converted into Judaism very soon after getting established which paved way to the later conversion into Christianity subsequently. By the way you cannot overlook or deny the existence of Judaism and Zoroastrianism at the same time over there.

I never did that, but you also cannot deny that the Iranian presence was not strong enough to shift the language change, in any case I had already said that the Iranians were indeed there and even in some modern Assyrians we have some Iranian blood.

Any accounts? By the way what are the elements of your ancient Assyrian culture that any Iranian folk could ever adopt?

The Iranian element in modern Assyrians comes mostly from the Parthian and Sassanid periods, for instance we have plenty of Iranian saints within our church that established many great thing, Rabban Hurmizd is one great example, he was an Iranian Christian saint from the 5th/6th century and today, one of the most oldest and most prestige Assyrian monasteries still exists under his name in the town of Alqosh which happens to be one of the most Assyrian towns you'll ever find, which brings me to another Iranian saint from Alqosh by the name of Mar Qardakh, also another one would be Mar Behnam and a few more.

Not to mention to this day, we still use Iranian names from those days such as Narsai, Hurmizd, Mirza, so on, these are all Iranian names that we adopted during those times by mixing with them.


As I have already said the first and the last time that the term Assyria was applied to Adiabene was after its conquest by Roman invadors in 115-116 when they annexed it to the Roman Province of Assyria. I am sure you are aware of the fact that the Kingdom of Adiabene became over in the very same year-116!

In any case, the name of Adiabene was very short lived and it was over the land of Assyria, call it the land of Banana for all I care, in the end of the day all those rulers that came by used Assyria at one point or another to identify the land including the Iranians.

I am not gonna doubt your know-how, but in terms of Iranian linguistics you seem to have a vague idea. The Scythian essence of Kirmanji Kurdish may even be much clearer than that of Median in fact. Since we only know a few words from Medes' language which are mentioned within the ancient Greek accounts whilst on the other hand there are a pretty good amount of ancient and middle Scythian (particularly Khotanese Scythian) materials at reach (e.g. retention of ancient "c-" in the common Iranian verb for "to go" is exclusively restricted to Scythian, Kurdish, and Ossetic: Old Iranian "cyev", Avestan "shyev", Parthian "shew", Gilaki "shu-", Azari "sho-", Middle Persian "shew", New Persian "sho-",  Scythian "cu-", Kurdish "cu-", Ossetic "cu-".)

There's more to language than borrowing words, there are more Akkadian words in modern Assyrian Aramaic than Arabic, but Akkadian is in fact closer to Arabic than to modern Assyrian, it's called grammar, but I guess all these scholars that consider Kurdish a northwestern Iranian language and Ossetian to be the only Scythian language are just talking out of their ass I guess.

In accordance with the following genetic researches Kurds are:

"Similar to Azeris [do you need to be reminded of Azeris Iranian origins?], Ossetians [an Iranic people indeed], and Armenians" ~ Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, et al. (November 2000).

"Possibly closer to European rather than Caucasian." ~ Nasidze I, Quinque D, Ozturk M, Bendukidze N, Stoneking M (July 2005). "MtDNA and Y-chromosome variation in Kurdish groups". ~ Annals of Human Genetics 69 (4): 401–12

"Sharing close similarity with Georgian in terms of MtDNA sequence." ~ Comas D, Calafell F, Bendukidze N, Fa?an?s L, Bertranpetit J (May 2000). "Georgian and kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 112 (1): 5–16.

"Originating from the same Old Mediterrenean ancestry along with Turks, Iranians, Jews, Lebandese and other Western and Eastern Mediterrenean peoples." ~ Arnaiz-Villena A, Karin M, Bendikuze N, et al. (April 2001). "HLA alleles and haplotypes in the Turkish population: relatedness to Kurds, Armenians and other Mediterraneans". Tissue Antigens 57 (4): 308–17.

"Close to  Anatolian Turks along with the other East Mediterrenean peoples" ~ Arnaiz-Villena A, Martinez-Laso J, Alonso-Garci? J (September 2001). "The correlation between languages and genes: the Usko-Mediterranean peoples". Human Immunology 62 (9): 1051–61

"Relatedness with Jews [by blood]" ~ Nebel A, Filon D, Brinkmann B, Majumder PP, Faerman M, Oppenheim A (November 2001). American Journal of Human Genetics 69 (5): 1095–112.

Accordingly there is definitely no such a point in regards with genetics to dismiss the Iranian essence of Kurdish people.

Also I didn't notice a single direct mention to Assyrians within the above sources, as well as you had omitted Iranians obviously. Although I believe it is not intentionally.


A) There's no mention to the Assyrians because we're a smaller nation, but generally it's looking like that the Assyrians are like Armenians and Anatolian Turks in terms of genetics (This being proven now by the 23andMe samples we are gathering).

B) The Iranian homeland is South Central Asia, a Kurd is a whole lot closer to an Assyrian rather than a Pashtun or a Tajik per say, again this is being proven by autosomal results at 23andMe.

If you're really interested in finding out where you fit in, drop the whole Y-DNA and mtDNA none sense and test at 23andMe, it won't take you long to realize that originally you're more middle eastern than you would like to be, if you were an Iranian you would show an affinity to South Central Asia.

That is wrong. If you once excluded Southwestern loans, there would remain no exclusive similarities between them both unless some dialectal likenesses which are hardly to imply any significant connection out of the theoretically common Northwestern Iranian characteristics (e.g. adding an initial "h-": Kurdish "hesin" ~ Baluchi "hesin", Kurdish "hesp", Baluchi "hesp"; which also is noticeable amongst other Iranian languages indeed and thus not that much remarkable).  

I'm not gonna argue about that, this is not me who says this, it's the scholars who group Kurdish and Baluchi under the same branch.

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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 23:24
Originally posted by Ince

Even the Kurdish flag is Iranian.  It's basically the pre-1979 flag of Iran upside down and without the Lion.






This is really funny, but hey I can play too, look at the Iraqi flag, it's just an old German flag flipped upside down but with someone scribbling Allahu Akbar on it, I guess this proves the German background of Iraqis LOL


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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 02:31
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince

Even the Kurdish flag is Iranian.  It's basically the pre-1979 flag of Iran upside down and without the Lion.






This is really funny, but hey I can play too, look at the Iraqi flag, it's just an old German flag flipped upside down but with someone scribbling Allahu Akbar on it, I guess this proves the German background of Iraqis LOL




The designe behind the Kurdish flag is somehow related to the Iranian one, maybe someone with more knowledge has more info?
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  Quote Zert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 02:38
I know that it uses the Pan-Iranian colours, but that's it. I'm quite sure they purposefully chose those colours because Iran has the same ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Iranian_colors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_flag

There's a Kurdish page with more info, maybe someone can translate some bits of it?
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 02:43
Originally posted by Putty19


B) The Iranian homeland is South Central Asia, a Kurd is a whole lot closer to an Assyrian rather than a Pashtun or a Tajik per say, again this is being proven by autosomal results at 23andMe.

If you're really interested in finding out where you fit in, drop the whole Y-DNA and mtDNA none sense and test at 23andMe, it won't take you long to realize that originally you're more middle eastern than you would like to be, if you were an Iranian you would show an affinity to South Central Asia.


But so is the whole of Iran, the whole country is by genetics mainly natives of the middle-east and are closer to Assyrians and Anatolian Turks.  I don't know why you just single out the Kurds, the Azaris,Persians,Lurs..ect all have genetics that would be considerd closer to Middle-easteners rather then East Iranians.

We do not know what happend when the Aryan tribes came and mixed with the natives or how big of a genetic impact they had.  They could of had small genetic impact.




Edited by Ince - 25-Jun-2010 at 02:45
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  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 03:08
Originally posted by Putty19


What, did I break your Kurdish heart that I mentioned Adiabene and Assyrian being one of the same? I'm sorry, but it is what it is and you need to deal with it
 
Did I say it is not what it is? I am afraid but seemingly it is you who needs to deal with the truth. Because you boastfully claimed Assyrian to be the language of Adiabene, while it is all wrong since its official language was for sure Aramaic (like the other western parts of those days Iranian empires) and its native languages are currently uncertain, but presumable indeed. As well as you affirmed that Adiabene is equal to Assyria, in spite of the very fact that the term Assyria was only applied to Adiabene at the end of its independence (after some 100 years) when Romans annexed it to their Roman province of Assyria
 
 
Originally posted by Putty19

you talk about language, first of all there's no such thing as Assyrian language to begin with,
 
I am sorry but the above clauses do not correspond with your previous states. It was you who talked about language, particularly considereing an extinct language such as Assyrian to be the language of Adiabene!
 
Originally posted by Putty19

there are only languages that are spoken by Assyrians,
 
Peoples who are nowadays referred to as Assyrian (either Aturaye* or Suryaye*, the later one which is disputable) do speak Neo-Aramaic speeches unanimously.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

Akkadian happens to be the older language, and Aramaic was the newer language
 
I am sorry but your words in this regard are not clear. Akkadian and Aramaic are two distinct Semitic languages. Both got their own old forms, whilst Aramaic is still spoken in new forms (Neo-Aramaic speeches are related to the Old Aramaic since they are all Aramaic languages), but Akaddian is by all means an extinct language. 
 
 
Originally posted by Putty19

the ancient Assyrians themselves switched Akkadian to Aramaic during the 8th century BC when Assyria was at its might,
 
There is not such a stuff at all. Aramaic is supposed to be replacing Akkadian (Assyrian as well as Babylonian dialects) as lingua franca (and not first language) since your aforesaid time. But as a matter of fact the most important era for Old Aramaic getting pervaded all over the mesopotamia (as first language) begins with the rise of Achaemenid dynasty. And its usage as a lingua franca is not restricted to Babylon or Assyria, but to many other lands as well.
 
 
Originally posted by Putty19

therefore the Aramaic that was spoken in Adiabene was there because the ancient Assyrians themselves switched the official language meaning both of Akkadian and Aramaic were languages of the ancient Assyrian people and thus, Assyrian languages.
 
You do exactly mean after this therefore because of this! Aramaic as official language cannot imply any connection with being Assyrian in a thousand years, because otherwise the entire ancient Iranians, Jews, etc. would be Assyrians too! Currently Semitic Christians, Jews, and even some Muslims speak Neo-Aramaic speeches over Middle East. Please spend some time reading linguistic and historical sources about Assyrian Akkadian and Old Aramaic in order to perceive the very fact that they are two distinct languages respectively spoken by two distinct peoples, namely Assyrians and Arameans.

Originally posted by Putty19

Also for your information the Assyrians contributed to Aramaic so much that even the modern Jews call their Hebrew script (Which happens to come from Aramaic) Ketav Ashuri, and that's because it's the ancient Assyrian version of the Aramaic letters.
 
Could we conlcude that Aramaic is the same as Assyrian Akkadian only on account of Jews calling their Hebrew script "Ketav Ashuri"?! Anyways I again suggest you to read more about Assyrian Akkadian and Aramaic and for your knowledge scripts do not implicate any thing on their own. For instance many middle Iranian languages were written in Aramaic scripts too, or today Persian is written in an Arabic (particularly the Perso-Arabic) script, which for sure they call it "Khatt-e Farsi" (Persian script; since Persians contributed to develop it).

Originally posted by Putty19

What's interesting is on one end, you say most of the region were Kurds, on the other hand you recognize the language of the people was Aramaic, hmm, I wonder, where did all these Iranian speaking Kurds come from and where did the so-called Aramaic speaking Kurds disappear to?
 
What is interesting and causes my wonder is that most likely you do not discern native language (of people) and official language. By the way Kurdish Jews using Neo-Aramaic dialects is a stuff due to the fact that it is their religious language indeed as well as they are a mixture of Jews by blood (whose first language was Aramaic by those times) and converted ethnic Kurds. By the way Aramaic lonlily has nothing to do with any Assyrian entity at all.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

Anyways, it's non sense, the Aramaic speaking Assyrians lived in proper Assyria (Adiabene) and the Kurds lived north of them for most part, it always has been that way throughout ancient history.
 
Firstly speaking Aramaic is not restricted to Assyrians. It is an unfortunate fact that you do not distinguish Aramaic from Assyrian. Secondly on how come you do dare refer to Adiabene as Assyria since the first and the only time that it got associated with Assyria was after the Romans conquest and its annexation into their Province of Assyria?! 


Originally posted by Putty19

Does that mean Adiabene did not have an Iranian presence? No it does not mean that, but clearly it was not strong enough to influence the language change from Aramaic to the newly Iranian tongue.
 
Aramaic also was an official language of the entire Iranian empire, but it got nothing to do with either native languages nor any prevailing Assyrian ethnicity in fact. 
 

Originally posted by Putty19

As far as Jews go, for your information they never think of themselves as Kurds, but rather Jews,
 
No need to your partial information. My auntie's son-in-law and his family as Kurdish Jews asseverate their Kurdish identity in their own words.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

they call themselves Kurdish Jews because they come from an area today which most people know it as Kurdistan, much so like Yemeni Jews, Moroccan Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, so on.
 
Most people might not recognize it as Kurdistan, but the prevailing ethnicity in the respective area is Kurdish. By the away in accordance with Judaic sources many ethnic Kurds have converted into Judaism as well.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

I never did that,
 
You just pasted it from Wikipedia ("Adiabene was home to our [< Assyrian] Church") and meantime omitted the rest (namely "Persian Zoroastrians").
 
Originally posted by Putty19

but you also cannot deny that the Iranian presence was not strong enough to shift the language change.
 
Please read more about official and native languages to perceive them properly. Back to our discussion as for the native language we do not have any certain ideas but as a matter of fact Adiabenese rulers first names were mostly of Iranian origin (while the entire Assyrian kings did have Semitic names for sure). The only and the first direct historical mention to the populantion of Adiabene is made by Arab conquerers, where they explicitly record the prevailing ethnicity of Adiabenese people as Kurdish.

Originally posted by Putty19

The Iranian element in modern Assyrians comes mostly from the Parthian and Sassanid periods, for instance we have plenty of Iranian saints within our church that established many great thing, Rabban Hurmizd is one great example, he was an Iranian Christian saint from the 5th/6th century and today, one of the most oldest and most prestige Assyrian monasteries still exists under his name in the town of Alqosh which happens to be one of the most Assyrian towns you'll ever find, which brings me to another Iranian saint from Alqosh by the name of Mar Qardakh, also another one would be Mar Behnam and a few more. Not to mention to this day, we still use Iranian names from those days such as Narsai, Hurmizd, Mirza, so on, these are all Iranian names that we adopted during those times by mixing with them.

Thanks, appealing information.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

In any case, the name of Adiabene was very short lived
 
Sure thing, and it of course had nothing to do with the term Assyria during its short life.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

and it was over the land of Assyria, call it the land of Banana for all I care,
 
The term Assyria only appears in the Adiabenese history when Romans conquer it and subsequently annex it into their Province of Assyria. By the way I am sorry but your self-designation is immaterial in this case.

Originally posted by Putty19

There's more to language than borrowing words, there are more Akkadian words in modern Assyrian Aramaic than Arabic, but Akkadian is in fact closer to Arabic than to modern Assyrian, it's called grammar,

Your comparison is fallacious. You claimed that Scythian is clearly not to be reckoned as an origin of Kirmanji Kurdish, which in fact is due to your lack of knowledge in terms of Iranian linguistics. Although I am looking forward for any authentic words of yours regarding to your pretention about denying Scythian and Kurdish exclusive connection.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

but I guess all these scholars that consider Kurdish a northwestern Iranian language and Ossetian to be the only Scythian language are just talking out of their ass I guess.
 
For your knowledge all those shcolars once read a Middle Persian word such as "lwc", written in Aramaic letters, as "roc" and then changed their minds and got that they had got it all the way wrong and thus suggested a new pronunciation: "roz". But there is nothing wrong with this, since thoeretical ideas might be alterred or changed at any time.
 
By the way we all, as humans, are supposed to behave ourselves.


Originally posted by Putty19

A) There's no mention to the Assyrians because we're a smaller nation, but generally it's looking like that the Assyrians are like Armenians and Anatolian Turks in terms of genetics (This being proven now by the 23andMe samples we are gathering).

So you just put the Assyrians deliberatelyAlso may I have your authentic proofs in this regard or it just looks like so?  
 
Originally posted by Putty19

B) The Iranian homeland is South Central Asia,
 
It is only a hypothesis.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

a Kurd is a whole lot closer to an Assyrian rather than a Pashtun or a Tajik per say,
 
Do you mean that Pashtuns or Tajiks the only Iranians?! You are better to consider Azaris, Lurs, Bakhtiaries, and Persians in this regard too. By the way genetics cannot abolish cultural, historical, and social facts.
 
Originally posted by Putty19

again this is being proven by autosomal results at 23andMe.
 
Does 23andMe asseverate that Kurds are not related to Iranians but to Assyrians?

Originally posted by Putty19

If you're really interested in finding out where you fit in, drop the whole Y-DNA and mtDNA none sense and test at 23andMe,

Y-DNA and MtDNA are nonsense?
 
Originally posted by Putty19

if you were an Iranian you would show an affinity to South Central Asia.
 
The idea that Iranians are originated from Central Asia is a hypothesis. But in case of South Central Asian DNA, do you mean the present South Central Asian characteristics or its characteristics of prehistoric era to be compared with those of Kurds?

Originally posted by Putty19

I'm not gonna argue about that, this is not me who says this, it's the scholars who group Kurdish and Baluchi under the same branch.

 
Linguists do not affirm that Baluchi is the closest language to Kurdish but disputing them both in terms of representing Northwestern or Southwestern, assumbaly. It was obviously you who affirmed that Baluchi is the closest language to Kurdish and inferred that therefore Kurdish language comes from the Southwest Iran and most likey then Kurds are closer to Assyrians rather than Iranians!!
 
I again recommend you to study various cultural, historical, and social aspects of Kurdish people and other Iranian peoples in order to appreciate their truly Iranian essence in practice.  
Blessed are the meek
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