Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Iranian Diversity

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>
Author
Miller View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 487
  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Iranian Diversity
    Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 22:18
Originally posted by Molokane



Originally posted by Miller


According to Greek historians. There were a couple million Persians at Thermapylae that is more than all the population of Greece at the time if not all Europe. With that logic all of Europe is Persian.


In reality war by themselves did not change the demographics by much. If that was not the case most of Eastern Europe would have looked Mongolian by now

That's very interesting. Who and how many historians claimed this event? And when did this happen exactly? If we can obtain the year of the battle (I assume it's a battle) we can source the approximate number of Europeans at the time and free lance theory from there.



480 BC

Per Herdotous the size of Persian force was about 2.5 mil with another 2.5 mil doing the support work


Edited by Miller - 27-Apr-2010 at 22:22
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 20:21
@Miller & Molokane:
 
Historians always highly, highly inflate the number of opposing forces, thereby highly, highly inflating the heroism of their own home forces. Especially, especially when their home forces won, as in the Battle of Thermopylae.
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
kalhur View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 23-Jan-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 263
  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 12:06
russian have higher  R1a y hg then iranian . the r1a is old iranian y hg that means a lotWink we have a kind of brotherhood att that areaLOL
in Europe, R1a, again almost entirely in the R1a1a sub-clade, is found at highest levels among peoples of Eastern European descent (Sorbs, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians; 50 to 65%).[13][14][15] In the Baltic countries R1a frequencies decrease from Lithuania (45%) to Estonia (around 30%).[16] Levels in Hungarians have been noted between 20 and 60% [17]


Edited by kalhur - 27-Apr-2010 at 12:08
Back to Top
Molokane View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 07-Apr-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Molokane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 17:40
Originally posted by Miller

According to Greek historians. There were a couple million Persians at Thermapylae that is more than all the population of Greece at the time if not all Europe. With that logic all of Europe is Persian.

In reality war by themselves did not change the demographics by much. If that was not the case most of Eastern Europe would have looked Mongolian by now



That's very interesting. Who and how many historians claimed this event? And when did this happen exactly?

If we can obtain the year of the battle (I assume it's a battle) we can source the approximate number of Europeans at the time and free lance theory from there.


Edited by Molokane - 26-Apr-2010 at 17:41
Back to Top
Miller View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 487
  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 17:16

According to Greek historians. There were a couple million Persians at Thermapylae that is more than all the population of Greece at the time if not all Europe. With that logic all of Europe is Persian.

In reality war by themselves did not change the demographics by much. If that was not the case most of Eastern Europe would have looked Mongolian by now

Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 23:50
Originally posted by Molokane

Has anyone taken into consideration of the Greeks/Byzantines and Russian influences in Persia? Greeks have been at war with the Persians since the beginning of time and it's safe to say people did pillage a lot of the areas back in the day. And the Russo-Persian wars did dwell for centuries to come in the North part of Iran. Perhaps that's why the North is much lighter than the rest of Iran? After all it just takes a few minutes to implant your seed.
Rape, pillage and plunder. The spoils of war.
 
Well, whatever 'implantations' that occurred would have occurred in both directions. Cos neither the Greeks nor the Russians were on the winning side all the time against the Persians.
 
The Macedonians, for example, were whupped by the Persians under General Marduniya (Mardonius) and submitted to Persian hegemony during the time of Daraya (Darius) and Khashayar Shah (Xerxes). Khashayar Shah even married a Macedonian princess, a sister of Alexander I, an ancient ancestor of Philip. So he would have had not a few minutes, but many, many happy, enjoyable years of of slow, unhurried 'implantations'.Approve
 
For all ya know, considering the penchant among royalty to marry amongst their own kind, an offspring of that royal Persian-Macedonian union could very well have contributed to the ancestry of Philip, thereby making Alexander the Great a descendant of Khashayar Shah (Xerxes).Smile


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 28-Apr-2010 at 18:30
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Molokane View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 07-Apr-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Molokane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 22:37
Originally posted by kalhur

i do not mean facial feature, but if you go skiing in high altitude where there is great amount of UV   you can get a  much more brown skin temporarely. many people from scandinavia are going to yearly sun vaccation and they go white and coming back nicely copper brown after only a few week exposure to stronger sun. there is huge difference in climate between northern iran and  coasts of persian gulf!of course facial feature is not so different between a khuzestani in south and mazandarani or kurds in northern part, but more stronger sun a more darker skin in general, but there are always some exceptions too.


My apologies Kalhur. I misread your statement.
Back to Top
Molokane View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 07-Apr-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Molokane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 22:27
Has anyone taken into consideration of the Greeks/Byzantines and Russian influences in Persia? Greeks have been at war with the Persians since the beginning of time and it's safe to say people did pillage a lot of the areas back in the day. And the Russo-Persian wars did dwell for centuries to come in the North part of Iran. Perhaps that's why the North is much lighter than the rest of Iran? After all it just takes a few minutes to implant your seed.
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 15:43
Originally posted by Molokane

Originally posted by kalhur

those talyshi girls are looking very original iranian to me, the variation in skin colour is much depending on  UV rays rather than race . the same people with same racial background can have different skin colour depending to the geografical location. Iran is a very large country with very different climate and same people can have a great variation in skin colour . because of this factor,
by the way they do not look different from azeris or kurds. or persians. there are many persian vilagers in alborz mountain they have same fair skin  and look due to the climate. 


On a larger scale, climate will affect skin pigmentation. But Indo-Europeans have only been around in central Asia for less than a triennium. That is not enough time for any characteristic to evolve. However, what may be a better theory is that since Iran is indeed so versatile to its climate, several ethnic groups favored certain climates according to their levels of melanin and migrated accordingly, such as the Talysh peoples in the North and darker various groups to the south. Siberia is a perfect example of climactic evolution. It's one of the coldest places on Earth and yet its people indigenous to the land reflect an abundance of Mongoloid traits (dark skin, hair, and almond eyes, etc.). 


The eskimos skin tone is to due them geting Vitamin D from fish.  As for others they might be not natives and could of arived much later.
Back to Top
kalhur View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 23-Jan-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 263
  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 15:43
i do not mean facial feature, but if you go skiing in high altitude where there is great amount of UV   you can get a  much more brown skin temporarely. many people from scandinavia are going to yearly sun vaccation and they go white and coming back nicely copper brown after only a few week exposure to stronger sun. there is huge difference in climate between northern iran and  coasts of persian gulf!of course facial feature is not so different between a khuzestani in south and mazandarani or kurds in northern part, but more stronger sun a more darker skin in general, but there are always some exceptions too.

Edited by kalhur - 25-Apr-2010 at 15:44
Back to Top
Molokane View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 07-Apr-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Molokane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 15:09
Originally posted by kalhur

those talyshi girls are looking very original iranian to me, the variation in skin colour is much depending on  UV rays rather than race . the same people with same racial background can have different skin colour depending to the geografical location. Iran is a very large country with very different climate and same people can have a great variation in skin colour . because of this factor,
by the way they do not look different from azeris or kurds. or persians. there are many persian vilagers in alborz mountain they have same fair skin  and look due to the climate. 


On a larger scale, climate will affect skin pigmentation. But Indo-Europeans have only been around in central Asia for less than a triennium. That is not enough time for any characteristic to evolve. However, what may be a better theory is that since Iran is indeed so versatile to its climate, several ethnic groups favored certain climates according to their levels of melanin and migrated accordingly, such as the Talysh peoples in the North and darker various groups to the south. Siberia is a perfect example of climactic evolution. It's one of the coldest places on Earth and yet its people indigenous to the land reflect an abundance of Mongoloid traits (dark skin, hair, and almond eyes, etc.). 
Back to Top
kalhur View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 23-Jan-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 263
  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 14:31
those talyshi girls are looking very original iranian to me, the variation in skin colour is much depending on  UV rays rather than race . the same people with same racial background can have different skin colour depending to the geografical location. Iran is a very large country with very different climate and same people can have a great variation in skin colour . because of this factor,
by the way they do not look different from azeris or kurds. or persians. there are many persian vilagers in alborz mountain they have same fair skin  and look due to the climate. 
Emil i wonder how we can see  the difference if some one is persian or kurd or azeri  and how could we discriminate azeris and not persian or talyshis?



Edited by kalhur - 25-Apr-2010 at 14:40
Back to Top
TheGreatSimba View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 22-Nov-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1152
  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 14:12
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev

Simba, what are you bubbling about?


What I'm talking about is your skewed view of history and actual historical facts, which then interferes with your ability to have a real discussion on modern day issues.
Back to Top
Emil_Diniyev View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2007
Location: Azerbaijan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253
  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 13:03
Simba, what are you bubbling about?


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 25-Apr-2010 at 13:17
Back to Top
Molokane View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 07-Apr-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Molokane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 12:59
So the most intricate and perplexed issue in Persian anthropology is:

Did Europeans migrate to Iran from Scandinavia or did Europeans migrate from Persia to the rest of Europe?

Another good question would be,

If Europeans migrated to Europe from Iran, did any of these groups such as the ancient Slavs and Balts go back to Persia and help preserve the phenotypes such as the Qashqai or Talysh?
Back to Top
TheGreatSimba View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 22-Nov-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1152
  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 12:57
Guys seriously, no amount of evidence, facts, science, etc... will convince Emil otherwise. He has been brainwashed by decades of pan Turkist and Soviet propaganda. He will not change his mind over a simple discussion in a thread.

Believe me, these people will only change if they want to, and he doesnt want to. I can post him pages and pages of historical documents, historical maps, genetic data, etc... which prove him wrong, yet he will simply ignore it all because that is what hes been programmed to do. This is how brainwashing works, its hopeless until hes willing to accept that his point of view may be wrong, which hes not programmed to do.
Back to Top
Emil_Diniyev View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2007
Location: Azerbaijan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253
  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 05:08
Very funny about Talyshs. They enjoy far more rights then Azeris in Iran for instance.
Back to Top
Emil_Diniyev View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2007
Location: Azerbaijan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253
  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2010 at 05:05
Sorry but what do you know about Derbent? Untill 1922 it was part of Azerbaijan (as always) but given to Dagestan by Bolsheviks. Even today its still Azeri majority.

Derbent (Russian: Дербе́нт; Azeri: Dərbənd; Lezgian: Кьвевар; Avar: Дербенд; Persian: دربند; Judæo-Tat: דארבּאנד / Дэрбэнд / Dərbənd[1]) is a city in the Republic of Dagestan, Russia, close to the Azerbaijani border. It is the southernmost city in Russia, and it is the second most important city of Dagestan. Population: 101,031 (2002 Census); 78,371 (1989 Census). The Azeris are the main ethnic group (80%), followed by Lezgins (15%) and Tabasarans (5%).

Tats are insignificant.


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 25-Apr-2010 at 05:07
Back to Top
Kanas_Krumesis View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2010 at 23:15
 I have a feeling that Pan-Turkist Azerbaijani government making an attempt to erase all Iranic past of their lands. They use typical for Pan-Turkist fascistic methods like mother tongue ban, compulsory official language, population replacing, assimilation, fake demographics, economical oppression... Such a things very, very familiar to me.
 
According to talysh activist Ismail Shabanov:
"A massive resettlement of Kurds to the originally Talysh-populated southern regions of Azerbaijan is underway. Some 5,000 Kurds have moved to Lenkoran alone, plus some 500-1,500 people per village. Intolerable conditions for the locals are being created: they cannot buy land or open businesses. While the Talysh population is strangulated by excessive regulation, the newcomers are given preferential treatment. All the young Talysh people have left the region. In broad daylight, we see Azerbaijan destroy the ancient civilization and the language in which Avesta, the primary collection of sacred texts of Zoroastrianism, was written"
 
International organizations such as Washington Profile, UNPO and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty have voiced their concerns about the arrest of Novruzali Mamedov, Chairman of the Talysh Cultural Centre and editor-in-chief of the "Tolyshi Sado" newspaper. He was arrested and tried in the court of grave crimes, after the newspaper published articles showing well known Persian poet Nezami, whose mother, named Ra'isa, was of a Kurdish background, and Iranian historical hero Babak Khoramdin as Talysh
 
Tats people who lived from very ancient time in southern slopes of Caucasus mountain are present from official propaganda as a new-comers. The ancient Sassanid fortress of Derbent (now in Russia)- as an Azeri fortress and even Azeri have a territorial claims over this region.
 
Azerbaijani soldiers filmed from Iran destroying Armenian khachkars (ancient stone crosses) at Julfa.
Back to Top
Kanas_Krumesis View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2010 at 23:04

Talysh people

 
The Talysh peoples (Harzani, Kajali, Karingani, Takistani, Talysh) inhabit the northwestern regions of Iran. One group can also be found in southeastern Azerbaijan. They occupy a land of sharp contrasts, ranging from the high, forested Talysh Mountains, to the subtropical coastal land along the Caspian Sea. They refer to themselves as the Talushon, and speak an Indo-Iranian language that is also called Talysh. Although all of the Talysh groups speak their native language, most are also fluent in Azerbaijani, and some speak Russian or Farsi.

The Talysh have lived in the southwest Caspian Sea region for thousands of years. They came under Turkish influence during the Middle Ages, but established their own independent khanate, or kingdom, in the 1600's. In the early 1800's, the Talysh of present day Azerbaijan fell under Russian control, which continued until 1991 when Azerbaijan seceded from the Soviet Union. Today, the Talysh face the same dilemma as many other Central Asian peoples as they attempt to decide whether to follow the Islamic traditions of the past, or the Western culture and technology of the present.

What Are Their Lives Like?
The lifestyles of the five Talysh groups vary greatly due to the differences in their environments. However, regardless of the region in which they live, the majority of Talysh are farmers. In some areas, rice is the primary crop; in others, wheat and barley are grown. Tea and citrus fruits are raised in the lowlands near the Caspian Sea. Many of the Talysh living in the lowlands cultivate fresh produce, including garlic, onions, pumpkins, melons, peas, and grapes.

Not all of the Talysh are farmers. Some have become skilled craftsmen. Their primary handicrafts include silk, rugs, and felt. Some work with tin, make shoes, or design jewelry.

The Talysh live in various styles of houses, depending on the region in which they are located. Those in the mountainous areas typically live in flat-roofed homes built of uncut stone. Those in the coastal zone live in clay houses that have roofs made of reeds or sedge (grass-like plants with solid stems). The homes usually have high doors reaching to the ceiling, since there is no opening in the roof to allow smoke from the cooking fires to escape. The traditional Talysh homes have no furniture. However, today, a growing number of homes have adopted Western-style furnishings.

Talysh women once wore traditional Muslim clothing, which consisted of veils over their faces and long robes that completely covered their bodies. Today, many Talysh women, especially those in Azerbaijan, have abandoned the customary outfit and wear Western-style clothing.

Although Islamic law permits men to have as many as four wives, most Talysh men take only one wife. Boys usually marry while they are between the ages of 15 and 20; whereas, girls usually wed while they are between the ages of 12 and 16. The groom's family is required to pay a bride-price, or kebin, which consists of money and items such as carpets or utensils. To avoid paying the kebin, a young man will sometimes "kidnap" the prospective bride, taking her as his wife.

What are their beliefs?
The Talysh are virtually 100% Muslim, primarily of the Shi'ite branch. They consider Jesus to be a prophet, a teacher, and a good man, but not God's son. Since Islam is a religion of works, they believe that after death they will be judged by their good deeds and by their knowledge of the Koran. Like other Muslims, they observe the five "pillars" of Islam, which include affirming that Allah is the only god and Mohammed is his prophet, praying five times a day, giving alms generously, fasting, and making a pilgrimage to Mecca.

Although the Talysh are professing Muslims, some remnants of their pre-Islamic religion remain. For example, they have a great reverence for trees and groves, and trees form some of their most sacred sites. They also believe in the presence of both good and evil spirits, with the most dangerous spirit being Alazhan, the "Red Woman." Alazhan is believed to attack women during childbirth, as well as newborn babies.

What are their needs?
Azerbaijan faces the most severe economic problems of the three former Soviet Transcaucasus republics. It is burdened with high unemployment and a long tradition of corruption, both of which pose a threat to economic growth.

Iran has strictly enforced the "Islamic code of conduct" since the 1979 revolution. This code states that men are the leaders and women care for the children and home. The government's persecution of Christians has increased dramatically since the revolution.

The Talysh have been bound by Islam for many years. Most of them have not had an opportunity to hear a clear presentation of the Gospel. These precious people are in desperate need of Christian resources in their own language. At the present time, there are no Christian broadcasts, Bibles, or literature available to them, and none of the groups are being targeted by missions agencies. Willing laborers and evangelistic tools are needed to effectively penetrate these groups with the Light of the Gospel. Most importantly, they need people who will begin to faithfully intercede for them, tearing down the strongholds that are keeping them in spiritual bondage. Only then will their hearts be prepared to receive the Gospel as it is presented to them.

Prayer Points
Pray for greater freedom to preach the Gospel in Iran and Azerbaijan.
Ask God to give the small number of Talysh believers opportunities to share the Gospel with their friends and families.
Pray that God will send medical teams and humanitarian aid workers to minister to the needs of the Talysh.
Ask God to raise up prayer teams who faithfully stand in the gap for the Talysh.
Take authority over the spiritual principalities and powers that are keeping the Talysh bound.
Pray that the Lord Jesus will reveal Himself to these precious people through dreams and visions.
Ask God to raise up linguists to translate the Bible and other Christian materials into Talysh.
Pray that local churches will be planted among the Harzani, Kajali, Karingani, Takistani, Talysh.

 
Image from Talysh land


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 23-Apr-2010 at 23:53
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.082 seconds.