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Avestan Directions
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balochii View Drop Down
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Avestan Directions
    Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:35
^ i personally think it was more of a cultural relations
 
I personally think aryans whoever they were existed some where in today's Afghanistan, Eastern Iran, Tajikistan and northern areas of pakistan.
 
It is important to know where Sanskrit and avestan were founded, Sanskrit was founded somewhere in the northern pakistan area of today and Avestan was found in modern Afghanistan. Like i said before these areas play a huge role in this aryan debate, But i dont think no one has done too much reasearch in these areas.


Edited by balochii - 20-Jul-2010 at 06:37
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Posts: 15 		  Quote Vivekanand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:48
The home of Iranian people may be quoted as from else where, 

But why cant it be that this particular cultural relations with Indian people, the Sanatani ( as Hindus were known prior to 5000  BC) might have exchanged, remember the keyword is exchange (give and take) ...

When a relationship establishes, both sides would exchange the good and bad parts... The fact that we have more remnants on the Indian side of the table (over several millenia) might even lead us to believe that India could have been a major contributor as well...

Discrediting the aboriginal Indians, as some prefer to call them, or  the Sanatani (Hindus) of their knowledge  and religion is not done... They contributed, as well as accepted learning from whichever culture they came across to build the basis of the oldest standing mordern religion... the Sanatana Dharma, the ritual name of Hinduism...

Now, the point I am making is that, telling  us you were nothing, we gave you all is nothing but equally boisterous as the purported Aryan Invasion...
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balochii View Drop Down
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:05
^ i dont think anyone is suggesting that though, India already had a civilization, however the exchanges that took place from aryans added to the indian civilization, especially the language(Sanskrit) and literature.
 
For example even in modern India many indians have adopted (english) as their main language and westernization mixing it with their own culture. I believe some thing similar might have taken place when aryans existed just west of india, this also took place when (mughals) from central asia came, for example much of what we call north indian food today is mughali food


Edited by balochii - 20-Jul-2010 at 07:06
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Posts: 15 		  Quote Vivekanand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:15
Balochii,

I also have come across 'The out of India' theory which the Nationalist say.. It does not propose any large scale migration..

It in fact sources its reference to the Shruti/Smriti texts ( Hear/Memorize texts) ...the unwritten ones, which are passed on from generation to generation via oral tradition...

What these texts say is stories from the time before the Vedas were asssimiliated...  I guess the Vedas.. all four of them would have been written and rewritten over a period of several centuries..

Now these oral texts ( an oxymoron :-) ) speak of indigenous Indians, travelling in their horses to various lands.. as explorers, where they spread their knowledge, learnt new things and came back.. sometimes even after several centuries they return.. their generations...

Now, you cant blame the Hindu Nationalist, as they believe what they read as historical fact.. Whether there is any truth in these texts or its filled with whims and imaginations of a few prehistoric dreamers...only time will tell.. if it can..

I am quite excited about the prospect that you suggest, that Sanskrit was founded in northern Pakistan, according to pre-vedic texts, this region would be called Gandhara, after sage Gandhara..
The idea is new indeed.. but quite possible.. it could well be the meeting point of the cultures from both sides...

Do you see any evidence in any texts or researches?
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balochii View Drop Down
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:27
wow this is amazing, this is the exact thing we are talking about in northern pakistan, apprantly the objects belong to Aryan civilization near Chitral, but again the security fears are of concern:
 
 


Edited by balochii - 20-Jul-2010 at 07:28
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:42
^ Chitral area is key, that where the Kalash people live, an ancient European looking people. No on is sure of their origin.
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Posts: 15 		  Quote Vivekanand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 10:24
Its amazing.. yet ironical...

The same site which is mentioned in texts, dating to 5000 BC and before, talks of this place.. about Sage  Gandhara moving from mainland India towards west preaching his knowhow.. and the place getting its name from him

How come this is called an Aryan site by the article..

Politics is fine, we all know Pakistan and India donot share good vibes, but if this relationship causes intervention in historical research, then there is as well no point in digging these places up...

But as Klaus Schmidt says 'When new gods come, the old ones must be buried'
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 11:22
^ we need proof of what you say, where does it say that exactly? what is mainland india? Uttar pardesh?
 
What does mainland india have to do with this site or any other sites in northern pakistan? you guys dont own the land or history of that area. Gandhara didn't even stretch any part of modern india of today


Edited by balochii - 20-Jul-2010 at 11:25
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Posts: 15 		  Quote Vivekanand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 11:50
Again Balochii... you miss the whole point.. Mordern day India/Pak does not come into picture.. do you realize that both these countries share common history.. before as near in the past as 1947

We are talking of 7000 - 8000 yrs old stuff.. only proof I have is some words from an oral tradition.. which no one other than Hindus would accept as truth :-) 

Whatever we know of Gandhara is max 1500 - 2000 BC old.. hope such excavations bring to light its antiquity... the Persians took over this place in 6 century BC, then the buddhist.. and so on...
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 11:57
^ but when did gandhara specifically extend in to modern india? i mean if it did then i would yes there is comman history, but Gandhara did not at all. Hindu shahis of Gandhara are not the hindu indians of today, if there are hindus in the chitral valley, which i believe do exist then yes this history belongs to them but not the hindus of modern india, ethinically people of chitral are different from indians of today

Edited by balochii - 20-Jul-2010 at 12:01
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Posts: 15 		  Quote Vivekanand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 12:08
This is an excerpt from a quite well translated version of Smrti Texts... it will give more clarity

http://www.sindhulogy.org/DynImageContent.aspx?pid=76&xmlpath=Theme10Part1&xsltpath=std01
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 12:55
^ lol who wrote that article, even claiming iranian territory as hindu indian, its clear its written by some nationalistic indian who has no sense of real history. why can't you guys ever bring sources from outside your nationlistic circles?
 
also since when was sadhu gandhara of your's mentioned in the article i posted?
 
gandhara civilization and its history belongs to the populations of northern pakistan of today be it muslim, hindu, buddhist. not hindus, muslims or sikhs from india of today, they have nothing to do with the place.


Edited by balochii - 20-Jul-2010 at 18:26
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:45
Kindly follow the link to know what archaeologists found  in Indus-Saraswati valley
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:47
Kindly go through the following link to know what genetical studies say about Indus-Saraswati civilization and the so called "Aryan invasion"


http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:54
^ again the links lead to some nationalistic indian page, for once post a link that is not done by an indian nationalistic, also we are not talking about indus valley per say, we are talking about Gandhara, which is totally based today's pakistan and eastern afghanistan, modern india has nothing to do with this.

Edited by balochii - 20-Jul-2010 at 21:56
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:56
Dear Balochi,

Both Archaeology and genetics had   clearly and doubtlessly ruled out any possibility of an Aryan invasion/migration to the Indus-Saraswati valley.
And about the mythical concept of Indus-Saraswati civilization being a dravidian one kindly visit the site given earlier ie cycle of time.
Linguistics also is in favour of this ie in case of rivernames ,placenames and names of dieties worshipped by rigvedic people.

Linguistic methodologies have limitations it cannot give a timeline for any developmen and apart from this it completely fails in addressing the direction of propogations.Every thing is based on assumptions 

And whether or not to acknowledge facts is one's decision.And if you want you can continue your propoganda of getting confused and confusing others in matters where you have little understanding.
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:57
^ again read my above post
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 22:19
Originally posted by balochii

^ i dont think anyone is suggesting that though, India already had a civilization, however the exchanges that took place from aryans added to the indian civilization, especially the language(Sanskrit) and literature.
 
For example even in modern India many indians have adopted (english) as their main language and westernization mixing it with their own culture. I believe some thing similar might have taken place when aryans existed just west of india, this also took place when (mughals) from central asia came, for example much of what we call north indian food today is mughali food

When there never took place a Aryan invasion at allhow do you expect such exchanges..

And about english in India, only less than 10% of Indian population are well versed in it and more than 95% of schools of India teaches in their colocial or locational languages.
And people learn english in India purely for career purpose.
And the whole of prehistoric literature ,the names of all the places , rivers and even all the dieties are in sanskrit..
How do you explain that.
A group or groups of so called aryans numbering only thousands, came to Indus-saraswati valley civilization which stretched from Balochistan to Karnataka in South India spanning more than 2 million square kilometres and accomodated a population of more than 20 million people and conquered them in 1700-1500Bc and taught them sanskrit& religion and fire worship  and made them write around 17500+ books in pre-classical sanskrit within next 200 years..

Great imagination Clap
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Posts: 15 		  Quote Vivekanand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 23:23
Originally posted by balochii

^ lol who wrote that article, even claiming iranian territory as hindu indian, its clear its written by some nationalistic indian who has no sense of real history. why can't you guys ever bring sources from outside your nationlistic circles?

 
This is the reaction I expected, as you would believe whatever is written in ancient scriptures, scrolls of west, but ancient Indian / Hindu scriptures and scrolls are considered myths.. :-) even if they corroborate with mordern places... Herat, Namaksar, Gandhara Civilization all exist and you can see it was mentioned in these scripts... It is proof enough for me.. I am no nationalist.. I dont want to claim everything came from India..  But ancient Bharata Varsha, as mentioned in those texts, has a pretty high and significant contribution to the development of the Hindu religion, spirituality and Sanskrit as well..

Whether this Sanskrit is the source of all languages is at the moment boisterous speculation and needs more study.. The Hindu scriptures donot talk of giving away free spiritual, linguistic knowledge to world all over.. so, even in that aspect, we are confined to Bharatha Varsha and odd expeditions South of Asia and into Europe for explorations... No way suggesting a mass influence on the world...

I dont want to say Hinduism is the origin of all religions, Sanskrit mother of all languages and so on... My point is Hindu religion is entirely Indian, (in the sense of Bharatha Varsha) surely blended with learnings by our sages from different parts they visited , and Sanskrit is a language we created.. then wrote several thousands of volumes of texts..the Upanishads, Nishads, the Vedas and many more...

Donot impose West on us... when the truth, and our own scriptures, says otherwise...
 
Originally posted by balochii

also since when was sadhu gandhara of your's mentioned in the article i posted?
 

Sad it was not... it will never be, because of political reasons.. The words from the Quran, the Avestan texts or the Bible will be taken for reference, but Hindu texts ignored.. why?

Originally posted by balochii
gandhara civilization and its history belongs to the populations of northern pakistan of today be it muslim, hindu, buddhist. not hindus, muslims or sikhs from india of today, they have nothing to do with the place.
[/QUOTE


Yes, it belongs to Pakistan.. materially..the land belongs to you and you are the immediate succesors of the people who lived their.. 

but the legacy has always been followed by us.. we on a daily basis perform th

Yes, it belongs to Pakistan.. materially..the land belongs to you and you are the immediate succesors of the people who lived their.. 

but the legacy has always been followed by us.. we on a daily basis perform the similiar rituals that the people in these sites used to perform 5000 years ago, we believed the same spiritual path, the same representations of the supreme power whom we refer to as  gods.. while you don't.. nobody can take that away from us... We are happy with our legacy... we dont stake any claims on anybody else's land or property
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 00:11

Dear Balochi.

Earlier I posted a link  ie  http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/indology_en.asp  which is a greek site and authored by Dr.Nicholas Kazanas , a greek citizen and a British subject.In what respect are you calling him a hindu nationalist..?

Second link I posted is

http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory

which is a site which contains the details of studies carried out by several geneticists of different nationalities. Or do you mean to call people of all nationalities, (except a few which only you know) as Hindu nationalists..? What is the basis of your claim..?

 

Third site

http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=54 is authored by Simone boger who is a Brazilian citizen and a freelane journalist who had worked for a number of media outlets, including Globonews TV, the BBC World Service, Deutsche Welle and a variety of magazines and newspapers.

How come you call her a Hindu Nationalist..? What is wrong with you..?

 

What makes you so distinct & qualified enough to throw allegations against them..?
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