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Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?

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  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?
    Posted: 13-Jan-2011 at 20:51
Do you know that Armenians expeled all Yezidi Kurds from Armenia and all those Kurds are now in Russia or Europe?
 
There took an ethnic cleansing on Yezidi Kurds!
 
 
So how can we trust their results on Kurds, with sampel numer of n = 25 ?


Edited by MediaWarLord - 13-Jan-2011 at 20:52
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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2011 at 20:52
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Those tests on Yezidi Kurds were made by the Armenians, and Armenians hate Yezidi Kurds. As an Yezidi Kurd (from Georgia) I don't consider those results as "neutral". It's all fake, BOGUS!


I doubt that bro, the Yezidis in Georgian likely sufferd from the Bottle-Neck effect, in which they only had to mix with Yezidi tribes that were in Georgia, due to no other Yezidis been present, which resulted in high amounts of certian Haplogroups.
Are you serious?
 
n = 25  !?!?!?!?!
 
They say that they just took samples from 25 Yezidi Kurds. It's all bogus, I don't doubt about it at all. With 25 Yezid Kurds you can't draw a genetic map of Yezidi Kurds. It's not scientific at all. I did mathematics and statistics at the uni, I know what I'm talking about!
 
I'm waiting for the tests and results taken by the Kurdish government!


This is why I refuse to debate with you, you don't know anything about this subject and your claims are just laughable, the people that carried out the study were the following:

Ivan Nasidze
Dominique Quinque
Murat Ozturk
Nina Bendukidze
Mark Stoneking

Not a single Armenian among them, if you went to university you would bother reading first before making funny comments.
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  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2011 at 20:53
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Those tests on Yezidi Kurds were made by the Armenians, and Armenians hate Yezidi Kurds. As an Yezidi Kurd (from Georgia) I don't consider those results as "neutral". It's all fake, BOGUS!


I doubt that bro, the Yezidis in Georgian likely sufferd from the Bottle-Neck effect, in which they only had to mix with Yezidi tribes that were in Georgia, due to no other Yezidis been present, which resulted in high amounts of certian Haplogroups.
Are you serious?
 
n = 25  !?!?!?!?!
 
They say that they just took samples from 25 Yezidi Kurds. It's all bogus, I don't doubt about it at all. With 25 Yezid Kurds you can't draw a genetic map of Yezidi Kurds. It's not scientific at all. I did mathematics and statistics at the uni, I know what I'm talking about!
 
I'm waiting for the tests and results taken by the Kurdish government!
This is why I refuse to debate with you, you don't know anything about this subject and your claims are just laughable, the people that carried out the study were the following:

Ivan Nasidze
Dominique Quinque
Murat Ozturk
Nina Bendukidze
Mark Stoneking

Not a single Armenian among them, if you went to university you would bother reading first before making funny comments.
No, Nasidze et al, took the results on Yezidi Kurds from another study ...
 
 
Do you know that Armenians expeled all Yezidi Kurds from Armenia and all those Kurds are now in Russia or Europe?
 
There took an ethnic cleansing on Yezidi Kurds!
 
 
So how can we trust their results on Kurds, with sampel numer of n = 25 ?


Edited by MediaWarLord - 13-Jan-2011 at 21:45
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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2011 at 20:55
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

No, Nasidze at all, have taken the results on Yezidi Kurds from another paper ...


Show me your proof that Armenians carried out the study, don't just make up stuff.
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  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2011 at 20:56
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

No, Nasidze et al, took the results on Yezidi Kurds from another paper...


Show me your proof that Armenians carried out the study, don't just make up stuff.
Ok, I'll prove it you right now:
 
Before this paper was written (2005) Nasidze worked on a study with Tamara Sarkisian (and other people) on Y-Chromosome in Caucasus. I think that the results for this paper (on Yezidi Kurds) were taken from that study.
 
Some of the results of their common study were published in Human Genetics, volume 12, number 3 in 2003!
 
 
Some of the results were published in Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68, 588-599 in 2004.
And some of them (about Yezidi Kurds or Kurmanji_G) in this paper in 2005.
 
 
Tamara Sarksian (and Manoukian) sounds Armenian to me, so I smell fraud...


Edited by MediaWarLord - 13-Jan-2011 at 21:51
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2011 at 23:48
Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by Xorto

Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by Xorto

Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by New Corduene

Originally posted by Ince



It was mentioned on few articles I had read and it also in the book  Shadows in the desert: ancient Persia at war By Kaveh Farrokh
..........etc.



Thank you very much for this useful information, I'm mighty grateful.


No problem.  I just think that the term Kurd was used likely to describe non-Persian, Iranian tribes, as even Persians reffered to the Daylamites as Kurds of Tabriz and the Zaza believe they are the descendeds of the Daylamites. 

When the Arabs invaded, they also mentioned that Kurds were living in west Iran and in Fars.   I once read somewhere, where a Kurd believed it was the Kurds from west Iran that Kurdified/Mixed the Kurds in the North, which might explain the Middle-Persian influence in Kurmanji/Sorani as it has less Modern Persian influence, then again it just a someones opinion.


And here is another good example how you can´t teach Ince anything even while you told him 5000 times and he repeated ok I understand. The Daylamites better known as Dunbulis originated in Anatolia the Kurmanci Kurds are also descends of a tribe called Dunbuli the name Dimli comes from the Name Dunbuli. Not the Kurds expanded from Fars this is the biggest nonsense I have ever heared but the Persians also known as Pars expanded from a Region between lake Urmiye and Kirmashan known as PARSU. This Tribe moved south and became Persians. There is no genetic evidence showing Kurmanci or Zazaki speakers originated anywere from south or North Iran lose this Stories. Kurmanci has less Persian influence than Persian has Kurdish one. In your mouth everything sounds like The Kurds were hardly influenced by Persian but the Persian were not. Boy even the word for Gold Zar is a kurdish( northwestiranian loanword). You read to much Pan persian sources sorry made. At next you will claim we are one of the lost Persian tribes just to feel closer to good old Aryanam. Persians are related to us but they are not our forefather in fact it is rather that Persians originated from Kurdistan south of Urmiye.



Let me see all the claims I make are just my opinion based on the current knowledge that I read and will change over time, when I read more into history.  I never claimed I 100% believed in everyclaim it just a judgnment I go by untill I read better into Kurdish history.  Actually the sources I read were not "Pan-Persian", they were either written by Kurds(like Izady) or Western Historians.  Persians don't really write about Kurdish history, apart from Persian Nationalists bloggers, who go by nationalistc views. 

Regarding the linguastic, it is western language experts who make the claim that Kurdish has SOME Persian influence,  Which would be the case as Persian was widely spoken and even has major influence in Turkish and other languages in the region.


I have Izady´s work here as pdf WHERE THE HELL DO IZADY WRITE KURDISH COMES FROM PERSIAN OR SOUTH CENTRAL?  why can´t you understand that Kurdish in heritage IS OLDER  than Middle Persian it has Properties older than Old Persian so how ridiculous must a Person be to believe Kurdish originated from Middle Persian.  I tell you Stop to  read 100 YEAR old linguistic sources WE ARE NOW IN 2011. We know today that Xw used in Kurmanci is NOT from Middle persian but old Iranic Avesta it was Xw Too. We know that the V=B change is much older and even used by Scythians we know that Northwestiranic had more impact   on Southwestiranic than most people imagined. So why no one talks about Persian being descend from kurdish while kurdish is much older but such superbrainers  still come with such fuc.ed up things like kurdish originated from Southiranic. SERIOUS?



Dude where on earth did I say Izady said it? Please read what I typed correctly.  I said "Western lingustic experts" Never did I mention Izady name regarding languages.   My knowledge on Kurdish language is very small and go by what I read from articles on Kurdish languages, so don't flame me for reading what you believe as been wrong.  All I had said was Kurdish was likely influenced a little bit from Persian, the word Influences does not mean it came from Persian, Influences in the sense the same way Turkish has Persian influences.  Never did I type Kurdish was a Southwestern language, nor did I even say Kurdish comes from Persian.

I think you seem to be misunderstanding what I type or just somehow reading it wrong.  


I would love to know the name of this "international" linguist who says kurdish originated from Persian :D

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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2011 at 23:51
Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by Xorto

Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by New Corduene

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by New Corduene

Here is an article which explains this issue;

Kurds, Yezidis in Armenia and Turkey debate identity


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=the-unsolvable-controversy-of-kurds-and-yezidis-in-armenia-2010-08-13 
Bull, Turkish propaganda! Of course there're some @ssh#les among Yezidi Kurds who are ready to say anything for money. And our enemies (Arabs, Turks) benefit from this situation and pay them money to divide and weaken Kurdish people. But hey, their words (lies) don't disprove the fact that Yezidi Kurds are Kurds. Words can't change someone's ethnicity & culture.
 
I've family members who're active in Kurdish politics on regional (high) level. I know a lot Yezidi Kurds who have connections with the PKK and even KRG (PUK & KDP of S. Kurdistan).
 

The representative (agent) of KRG (KDP, Barzani) in Russia is an Yezidi Kurd, etc...



I agree, still the vast majority of the Yezidis consider themselves Kurds, but if the current assimilation policies continue, in a near future this could alter.

Just like the Lakis and Lurs in South-western present day Iran and how most of them (espeially Lurs) consider themselves different even though in the past they were one with the Kurds.


I thought that majority of Lakis consider themselves Kurds? and some consider themselves Lurs.

What next,  Alevi Kurds will also claim they are not Kurds? because the Sunni Kurds don't look to kindly towards Alevis?  Then again what has happened with the Yezidis is a sad case, those Kurds who treated Yezidis badly should be ashamed of themselves.  Then again I blame Islam for that. 


Thank to people like you who feel the need to link any little kurdish culture to their neighbours a Pan Iranic Guy like you is not better as a pan islamic guy working for Turks both of you are throw our People in "Others" hands just to feel more linked to their "Brothers". I also feel linked to Persians but Iam definitly not so obsessed on them like you.



What are you on about? Because I do not have anger or hate for Persians does not necessary make me a Pan-Iranist.   I have Persian friends and think not all people are bad regardless of their governments policeys or doing.   Please, using the word obsessed? Because I made few comments that that I like Persian people does not mean I am obsessed. 


Ince you are the one who is defending the idea of kurds being pure aryans. You are the one who rejects everything non Iranic on Kurds so how can someone show better how obsessed he is over something? Not only you have Persian friends I also know Persians from Esfahan but still I don´t walk in and act like I have seen my "lost " Brother.

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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:00
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Xorto


The original Scythian homeland was North of Blacksea they moved from their to east. I don´t know about which Greek historian you are talking about but Heredotus clearly calls only the Scythians from Northblacksea and Westasia Scythians and the Scythians from East Sakens! You people are still using old sources newer sources show that Scythic was not a unique language but many different dialects!



No, originally the Scythians lived somewhere in South Central Asia, the Cimmerians lived around the black sea area, this is what Heredotus says about them:

"Ardys took Priene and made war upon Miletus. In his reign the Cimmerians, driven from their homes by the nomads of Scythia, entered Asia and captured Sardis, all but the citadel."


He says that the Cimmerians were driven out by the Scythians, how could they be the same if they were driven out by them? Also some more on Scythian homeland:

"There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria. For the land which is now inhabited by the Scyths was formerly the country of the Cimmerians."


http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/herodotus/h4/">http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/herodotus/h4/

Basically they were from Asia, but due to constant wars with other groups they just migrated from the east, now they had wars with the Massagetae, these were Iranian people in South Central Asia, look at their location in the map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Asia_323bc.jpg

That's where the Scythians come from originally, South Central Asia, this is the region where Indo-Iranians developed and split to Iranians and Indo-Aryans.

Kurds are not pure Indoeuropean. NO ONE IS PURE.


I agree with you, as far as the clothing subject, the videos I provided were not from the Iraqi Kurds, it was from the Anatolian Kurds, as I said earlier, there's diversity in clothing, but the style I'm talking about is clearly the dominant style in Kurds of most parts.



I think you didn´t understand your own sources very well. The Cimmerians lived on the Cimmerian Bosporus this was just some Miles away from their Homeland north of Black sea. I don´t know how the hell you could read out Scythians being from Southcentral by this


"Ardys took Priene and made war upon Miletus. In his reign the Cimmerians, driven from their homes by the nomads of Scythia, entered Asia and captured Sardis, all but the citadel."

The Iranic speaking groups developed North of the Caucasus this is a almost proven fact they later migrated to South Central Asia. And why should Heredotus call the Scythians of East Saceans while calling the ones from Black Sea Scythians if the real Scythians came from Central? Your hole idea is based on OLD researches. Today we know that the Scythians did not developed in Central Asia.

I agree with you, as far as the clothing subject, the videos I provided were not from the Iraqi Kurds, it was from the Anatolian Kurds, as I said earlier, there's diversity in clothing, but the style I'm talking about is clearly the dominant style in Kurds of most parts.


I know that photo it is from first gulf war and they are iraqi Kurds 



Edited by Xorto - 14-Jan-2011 at 01:13
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:06
Originally posted by Zert

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Putty19

The Medes simply get their name from the name of the land (Just like the Assyrians, Babylonians, Akkadians, so on), but in 2200 BC there was no such thing as Iranians in this region, and since you like Wikipedia so much, this is what it says about ancient Iranians:

"Iranian peoples first appear in Assyrian records in the 9th century BC."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples

Before that there was no such thing as Iranians in the area or Media, that quote from Herodotus where he calls the Medes "Aryans" is actually from around 450 BC, NOT 2200 BC.
"Iranians first appear in Assyrian records" doesn't mean they didn't exist before, they just first appeared in their records. When the Medes were mentioned and have been living in Kurdistan Assyrians didn't even exist!
 
Herodotus was a historian, he wrote about the history! He wrote about what happened before his era. He wrote about 'the Medes before his time'.

 The DNA study was NOT done by Armenians, it was done by a scientific DNA company, once again, go read before you comment, you choose to ignore scientific evidence because you have an agenda of some sort, there's just as much Gypsy blood in Kurds I would say considering the large land they live in and the amount of diverse people living in, heck if we compare Kurds to Iranians, then you likely carry a much higher South Asian percentage than the Armenians, not all of South Asian blood is Gypsy, but some of certainly is.

Based on this chart from the study, the Kurds fall somewhere between Armenians and Iranians (Persians):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

Their pull toward the Persians means the South Asian percentage in Kurds is probably somewhere around 5% and greater than Armenian who have less than 1%, if you want to argue with science, I simply won't discuss this matter with you anymore since you clearly have not read much about it.
Wow, hocus pocus! Now you're g
uessing the Kurdish DNA and the percentage of other people in them, without any correct sources, without any valid information and without help of authentic documentation. Kurds are much less mixed than Armenians and modern Iranians.
 
You can assimilate people without change your Y-DNA. In theory, if Armenian men slept with Armenian women, Armenian Y-DNA wouldn't change. What you're saying is pure nonsense.
And if those mixed people slept with Armenian (Urartu) women, the mtDNA wouldn't change either. But they still care that Gypsy gene in them.
And since they have assimilated a huge population of Gypsies, they changed their genetica for ever!
 
The Y-DNA of most African American men is European (because the European slave owners raped their female slaves) , but are they European, is their DNA European? The Y-DNA proves nothing!
 
The fact is that Armenians assimilated lots of Gypsies. Gypsies lost their identity and became Armenians. But nobody is saying and nowhere is documented that Kurds assimilated Gypsies. The assimilation of the Gypsies by Armenians is well documented through the history of 1000 years! Where are those Gypsies who lived in Armenia? Armenians are partly Gypsies. Armenia is a Gypsieland, period!
 
I don't care if Armenians are Gypsies or not. But don't compare them with the Kurds and don't spread lies after lies about us!
I'm done with you. After all what people say about my people, won't change our roots, culture, ethnicity and language. Leave us alone and we will leave you alone. Let us live!


2 things:
-please stop the whole Gypsy thing, it proves nothing.
-Assyrians were definitely in Mesopotamia before the Medes, no arguing there.


No they didn´t the one you are talking about were the Akkadians and Babylonians. The Assyrians came later.

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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:27
 
Originally posted by Putty19

 

Based on this chart from the study, the Kurds fall somewhere between Armenians and Iranians (Persians):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

Their pull toward the Persians means the South Asian percentage in Kurds is probably somewhere around 5% and greater than Armenian who have less than 1%, if you want to argue with science, I simply won't discuss this matter with you anymore since you clearly have not read much about it.


So putty you  Source faker. And you expect from us that we get you serious if you use a Fst distance map were IRAQI Kurds are used, who also stay geographically between Iran and Turkey, as a representation for the kurds as whole? The iraqi Kurds stay on this map between Georgians and Northiranians I highly doubt that the Northiranians have more Contact to Southeastasian Populations than any other group of Westasia. Here is the table for this Fst Map


Cluster 1 is Northeuro 2 is Southeuro 3 isolated Sardinian one. 4 is Levant-Southeasteuro 5. is Westasian 6. also Levant 7. is a link to Centralasia! ......  11 and 12. are South- Centralasian.  Now tell me were do you see all 24 samples of Kurds. And tell me were you see a Link between iraqi Kurds and Southeastasian . Tell me which of this Groups is the most homogeneous Westasian  one and which groups show a link to Centralasia! 4 of ARMENIAN, 8 of Turkish(most probably their Turkic admixture) and 4 Iranian show a link to Central Asia while all 24 kurdish ones are in the Westasian Cluster. So stop talking about probably your probably has no value.



Edited by Xorto - 14-Jan-2011 at 01:14
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:30
     





Edited by Xorto - 14-Jan-2011 at 01:15
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:31
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince


Not surpirsed that Kurds will cluster closer to Iranians of Iran.  Kurds were historically most of the time part of the Iranian dynastys in the early days.   The Sassanids armys was likey dominated by Kurds. 


Technically speaking they're between the Armenians and Iranian Persians, this seems to fit the area pretty well actually since the Persians are more on the eastern side while the Armenians are more on the Anatolian side, the Kurds sit in between so this seems to point to the Zagros area as the home of the Kurds.

On this same chart you'll notice the Assyrians sitting between the Armenians and the Levant populations (Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians), once again this seems to fit the homeland where the Assyrians live in (North Mesopotamia), the amazing part is most of the oriental Jewish groups such as Iraqi, Iranian, Kurdish, Azeri, Uzbek, and Georgian Jews actually cluster with the Assyrians, this might be a connection that goes back to the days of Adiabene or some even further back to the lost tribes days.

One more thing, the Kurdish samples in this study are actually Iraqi Kurds taken from another major study, unfortunately there are no Iranian or Anatolian Kurds in the project.



So like you mentioned it is about iraqi Kurds and they stay between Anatolia and Northwestiran so this is no suprise.

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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:45
Originally posted by ancalimon

Originally posted by Xorto

Originally posted by ancalimon

According to Petersburg Academy, the dictionary called "Kurdish-Russian-German" contains 8307 Kurdish words. 3080 of these words are Turkic. 2640 of these words are Persian. 2000 of these words are Arabic that turned into different words and should be considered Turkic as well. That makes 5080 out of 8307 Kurdish words Turkic. There are 300 real Kurdish words.

When the English were ruling Iraq, they made Kurmanci the lingua franca and written and education language of Iraq. They made it represent three languages.

Someone simply tried to create a slave nation out of four different group of free people.

They simply were another tribe of Turkic bod just like most of Persians that are shown as non-Turkic.


This is why you can´t find a source about Petersburg academy any more. I ones asked you tell me only 20 Turkic words in kurdish and stop bitching around the Forum globe with such a nonsense.



Here are some words that entered Kurdish from Turkic (sometimes via Arabic&Persian)
bayram (Turkic) > beyrem (Kurdish)
becer (Turkic) > becer (Kurdish)
belli (Turkic) > bewli (Kurdish)
beniz (Turkic) > benz, bengz, begz, bekz (Kurdish)
bıçkı (Turkic) > bıxçı, bışki, böxşi (Kurdish)
bilezik (Turkic) > bilerzik (Kurdish)
inanç (Turkic) > inanca (Kurdish)
davar (Turkic) > davar (Kurdish)
ısot (Turkic) > isot (Kurdish)
kürt (Turkic) > Kürd (Kurdish)


Bayram uncorrect. 90% of Kurds use the kurdish word Cejn or the arabic Eyd!

What is Becer? Do you mean becermek? Kurds use karîn for that never heared of a Kurd who knows his Language well using Becermek.

Belli is only used by Kurds who don´t know their langauge very well thanx to your language oppressing Turkey. Belli is beyan.

Never heared of Binez.  I asked a turkish Friend about that Word. Hell you are using words which are not even known by Turks them self.

Bilezik is in kurdish Bazin! not bilerzik. You use the same word just putting in r between and expect we believe that nonsense.

bicki kurdish mişar 

Inanc in kurdish inanca? :D were the hell do you got this stupid words. kurdish believe is Bawerî

Davar is not a ethnic turkish but Iranic word.

Isot is the iranic word turkish is Biber go try to tell your bulls.it someone else.

about the last word we don´t even need to talk.







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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:48
Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince


Not surpirsed that Kurds will cluster closer to Iranians of Iran.  Kurds were historically most of the time part of the Iranian dynastys in the early days.   The Sassanids armys was likey dominated by Kurds. 


Technically speaking they're between the Armenians and Iranian Persians, this seems to fit the area pretty well actually since the Persians are more on the eastern side while the Armenians are more on the Anatolian side, the Kurds sit in between so this seems to point to the Zagros area as the home of the Kurds.

On this same chart you'll notice the Assyrians sitting between the Armenians and the Levant populations (Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians), once again this seems to fit the homeland where the Assyrians live in (North Mesopotamia), the amazing part is most of the oriental Jewish groups such as Iraqi, Iranian, Kurdish, Azeri, Uzbek, and Georgian Jews actually cluster with the Assyrians, this might be a connection that goes back to the days of Adiabene or some even further back to the lost tribes days.

One more thing, the Kurdish samples in this study are actually Iraqi Kurds taken from another major study, unfortunately there are no Iranian or Anatolian Kurds in the project.




Anatolian samples might be similar to Iraq Kurds, sit between Armenians/Turks and Iranians.  As for Kurds in Iran, they will most probably show closer ties to Iran as they have  always been part of Iran.  


and There are studies about Iranian Kurds too also a map made by Nasidze et al. they stay also between Iranians T(Teheran) and Georgians, Armenians. Iran is a Big country write it on your hand and don´t forget it they are close To Iranians from Teheran as well to Caucasians but they are hell of far away from Iranians from East. So they can´t cluster exactly in Iran is it so hard for you to understand?



Edited by Xorto - 14-Jan-2011 at 01:17
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:58

Originally posted by Ince

I believe Y-Dna is the only way of telling Kurdish ancestory.   For example Kurds likely have more Aryan linage then Turks of Turkey do Turkic.  Sadly only a few Y-dna tests have been done on the Kurdish population, ones that have are too small to get a good picture.  Only one study done on Anatolian Kurds and many on Iraqi Kurds and we can see from that they they have genetic ties to all the people that settled in Kurdistan from the Hurrians to Indo-Aryan Mittanis and the later Iranian tribes and then intermixing with their neighbouring populations,  I know Kurds in Urfa and Mardin who have Arabic ancestory, to Kurds who have Turkic ancestory like myself and people in my family.  


Ince what are you talking about here again after so much time I tried to explain you things. How many times do I need to tell you. there is no arabic Gene. The Arabs from Urfa and the little minority of arabs in Mardin are Levant people mostly of J2 and some of J1c  The Kurds in Urfa live in North and  to most  seperated from Arabs in Southurfa only in the City Urfa they have contact and still they usually don´t marry each other ask who you want the People especially the one from urfa are very conservative. The Turks in Anatolia are only up to 1/10 turkic the Rest is Anatolian.The Mitannis were Hurrians had almost zero Indo-Iranian input.



Edited by Xorto - 14-Jan-2011 at 01:20
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 01:01
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince

I believe Y-Dna is the only way of telling Kurdish ancestory.   For example Kurds likely have more Aryan linage then Turks of Turkey do Turkic.  Sadly only a few Y-dna tests have been done on the Kurdish population, ones that have are too small to get a good picture.  Only one study done on Anatolian Kurds and many on Iraqi Kurds and we can see from that they they have genetic ties to all the people that settled in Kurdistan from the Hurrians to Indo-Aryan Mittanis and the later Iranian tribes and then intermixing with their neighbouring populations,  I know Kurds in Urfa and Mardin who have Arabic ancestory, to Kurds who have Turkic ancestory like myself and people in my family.  


There has been DNA studies done on ancient remains of ancient Scythian Indo-Iranian skeletons in the Eurasian steppes, almost every single sample turned out to be haplogroup R1a1:

Ancient Kurgan remains

To help unravel some of the early Eurasian steppe migration movements, we determined the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the fourth century AD. In order to go further in the search of the geographic origin and physical traits of these south Siberian specimens, we also typed phenotype-informative single nucleotide polymorphisms. Our autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses reveal that whereas few specimens seem to be related matrilineally or patrilineally, nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans. Our results also confirm that at the Bronze and Iron Ages, south Siberia was a region of overwhelmingly predominant European settlement, suggesting an eastward migration of Kurgan people across the Russo-Kazakh steppe. Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization. To the best of our knowledge, no equivalent molecular analysis has been undertaken so far.


Today this marker is most common in Eastern Europe and India, among Kurds haplogroup R1a1 is usually less than 20% in most cases, this is the frequency from (Nebel et al.):

J2 - 28.4%
R1b - 16.8%
I - 16.8%
R1a - 11.6%
J1 - 11.6%
E1b1b - 7.4%
G - 4.2%
L - 3.2

(Nebel et al.)

As you can see from the frequency, the Kurds only carry 11.6% R1a1, keep in mind that just because someone carries this lineage that was carried by the ancient Indo-Iranians, it does not mean they come from Indo-Iranians, this lineage is very old and much older than the Proto-Indo-Europeans, it actually already existed in other places such as India, Middle East, and even as far as East Asia, to prove a point here in the same study we see the Arab Bedouins actually carried 9.4% R1a1 which is pretty much almost as much as the Kurds.

Overall the majority of Kurdish Y-DNA seems to be native to Anatolia/Caucasus, J2, J1, R1b, and G are all native lineages to these parts, that's 61% of the sample, E1b1b is East African but its existence in the Middle East is also very old and way before the rise civilizations, L could also be Middle Eastern if it's L2, if it's L1 or L3 then it's South/Central Asian, haplogroup I is a European lineage but also common in Anatolia, the subclade the Kurds carry is very likely I2 since this is most common around the Balkans and western parts of Anatolia, this same subclade is actually found in Turks and Armenians, haplogroup I1 on the other hand is very rare in the middle east and it's most common in Scandinavia among Germanic populations, whenever it is found in the middle east it's usually among Levant population which indicates a possible Crusader gene flow.

A newer study (Xing et al) has similar Y-DNA frequencies among Kurds, so as you can see the major lineages seem to be native as I've been saying all along, other populations such as Assyrians, Armenians, Turks, so on all show similar dominance of these native Y-DNA lineages.


You know this studies you are showing are all about Iraqi Kurds. never seen a study on Anatolian Kurds showing 11% J1. I assume 2-5% J1 among anatolian Kurds.

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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 01:06
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 01:08
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Ince

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Btw, Hg R1a doesn't make people Iranian. People in India are not Iranian.
 
There is a black tribe in Africa, Cameroon with HUGE percentage (95,5 % )of Hg R1b. Does that make them European?
 


I know what you mean, people rely too much on genetic purity.  Kurds claim Medo-Sycthian ancestory which they have, as those tribes live in Kurds. 

The R1b found in Africa was a migration into Africa that happend thousands of years ago, and maybe before the Pro-Indo Europeans or Cuacasian languages. 
If Scythians were mixed with Hg I and Hg R1a, why Central-Asiatic people don't have much Hg I (like Kurds), since Scythians are also partly their ancestors!?


That would be because they did not go back to Central Asia, they stayed where they were and eventually got Slavicized later on.   The same reason why you don't find high amounts of J among east Iranians, when Iran has high amounts.   Scythia was vast and strecthed from Eastern Europe to Central asia. 
Hmm, I thought that Proto-Scythians came from S. Russia and not from Central Asia. I think there're 'holes' in your theory.
 
Sorry, but I'll stick to my theory...
 
 


Of course they were from Southrussia and not Central Asia like Putty claims.

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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 01:27

Damn I think we should stop this discussion No one will expect the other opinion let us just wait and see what new studies will show. The now known studies about Iraqi Kurds (Nebel et al. Xing et al.)  show them in between Iranian and Georgian with their own cluster they are distinguishable from Iranians and Turks, Armenians. The only known study about the Anatolian Kurds show that they overall Westasian with a big link to Europe on Mtdna and with a big link to Caucasus on Ydna. The only Study I ones have seen about Iranian Kurds say they also stay between Iranian Tehran and Armenian Georgian. We should wait for new studies otherwise we will never find a Result  

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  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 10:10
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

No, Nasidze et al, took the results on Yezidi Kurds from another paper...


Show me your proof that Armenians carried out the study, don't just make up stuff.
Ok, I'll prove it you right now:
 
Before this paper was written (2005) Nasidze worked on a study with Tamara Sarkisian (and other people) on Y-Chromosome in Caucasus. I think that the results for this paper (on Yezidi Kurds) were taken from that study.
 
Some of the results of their common study were published in Human Genetics, volume 12, number 3 in 2003!
 
 
Some of the results were published in Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68, 588-599 in 2004.
And some of them (about Yezidi Kurds or Kurmanji_G) in this paper in 2005.
 
 
Tamara Sarksian (and Manoukian) sounds Armenian to me, so I smell fraud...


This study has nothing to do with the Yezidis, here's the paper, please point out the Yezidis for me:

Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus

If Tamara Sarkisian was involved in the Kurdish study they would put her name on there, besides, they were Georgian Yezidies, not Armenian Yezidies, enough with this non-sense, I'm done with your non-intellectual arguments, like I said, you don't offer anything good for discussion because you only believe what you want to believe and you lack the knowledge in this subject, I mean just a few posts ago you were mixing up haplogroup IJ to the Kurds lol, please go do yourself a favor and do some reading, one day you will look back and laugh at yourself for making these comments, good day.
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