Their pull toward the Persians means the South Asian percentage in Kurds is probably somewhere around 5% and greater than Armenian who have less than 1%, if you want to argue with science, I simply won't discuss this matter with you anymore since you clearly have not read much about it.
So putty you Source faker. And you expect from us that we get you serious if you use a Fst distance map were IRAQI Kurds are used, who also stay geographically between Iran and Turkey, as a representation for the kurds as whole? The iraqi Kurds stay on this map between Georgians and Northiranians I highly doubt that the Northiranians have more Contact to Southeastasian Populations than any other group of Westasia. Here is the table for this Fst Map
Perhaps you should learn how to read first before you go on calling me a faker, I did point out that these were Iraqi Kurds, the initial argument is your other biras kept on egging the whole Scythian argument and pointing to Y-DNA for evidence, I showed them that ancient DNA remains from Scythian skeletons showed 90% haplogroup R1a1 and 10% haplogroup C3, they went on to say that haplogroup R1a1 is more in Anatolian Kurds, well guess what, in the study where 87 Anatolian Kurdish samples were tested, 12.7% R1a1 was found among them, while among the Iraqi Kurds there was 11.6%, pretty much the same frequency, not to mention that not every R1a1 is of Indo-Iranian heritage because the haplogroup itself is very old and already existed in other places like India and the Middle East.
To boil down what I was saying, the Kurds are mostly a native West Asian population and if I were to take a wild guess on their Iranian heritage, it would likely be somewhere around 10% give or take.
I think you didn´t understand your own sources very well. The
Cimmerians lived on the Cimmerian Bosporus this was just some Miles away
from their Homeland north of Black sea. I don´t know how the hell you
could read out Scythians being from Southcentral by this
"Ardys took Priene and made war upon Miletus. In his reign the Cimmerians, driven from their homes by the nomads of
Scythia, entered Asia and captured Sardis, all but the citadel."
The
Iranic speaking groups developed North of the Caucasus this is a almost
proven fact they later migrated to South Central Asia. And why should
Heredotus call the Scythians of East Saceans while calling the ones from
Black Sea Scythians if the real Scythians came from Central? Your hole
idea is based on OLD researches. Today we know that the Scythians did
not developed in Central Asia.
I see you missed out the part where Herodutos pointed out how the Scythians left their homeland due to wars with the Massagetae, and I showed you on the map where these Massagetae lived (Central Asia), I'll post the map again and circle it for you:
Regradless of how much of genetic impact the Iranic tribes had, the Iranic heritage of the Kurds also includes culture and language. Persians,Lors,Gilaks,Talysh,Ossetians are all in the same boat and they are not less iranic then east iranians, because they have more mixed genetic ancestory.
Most of the important historical points of Iranian history happend in West Iran and by west iranians, and their descendants live in West Iranians. Before Fars, Persians were around lake urmia and they would of also had incroperated some of the local population before even moving to Fars. The Medes, Achaemenids, Parthians, even the Sassanids were all mostly mixed and they identified themselves as Aryans and even the Sassanids were the first to name Iran(Eran) meaning the "Land of Aryans".
Anyway I still don't think that testing 87 Kurds out of 20+ Million Anatolian Kurds is a good indication it would be the same on a larger tests. For all we know the people they had tested all came from the same region.
No nation is geneticaly pure or carry 100% linage of the people that established the identiy and language, Look at Northern Europeans they are mainly all R1b and I and yet Eastern Indo-Europeans do not carry that linage. Humans have tendancy to mix and incroperate other people.
To boil down what I was saying, the Kurds are mostly a native West Asian population and if I were to take a wild guess on their Iranian heritage, it would likely be somewhere around 10% give or take.
No, we are for 56.78935 % South American. You’re a comedian.
You are here not to clarify things, but you’re here for the confusion.
DNA results do not mean anything and prove nothing, especially when we’re talking about incorrect, manipulated and fake results done by Turks, Armenians (our historical and eternal enemies). These studies are nothing but full of full of a paradoxes. Stick these result in your ... .
Believe in whatever you want, but do not come with such stupid and wild claims. Kurds do not believe in these fairytales and not all Kurds are that naïve to get tricked. And you’re just making one big mistake. You don’t even know who Kurds are. Kurds will never get demoralized and will never give up. Whe don't even know what these words mean.
And special for you the Kurdish national anthem:
Our history is one filled with blood Let no one say the Kurds are dead, the Kurds are alive The Kurds are alive and our flag will never fall We are the sons of the Medes and Keykhosrow Our homeland is our faith and religion
"In Yasht 5, 9.25, 17.45-46, Haosravah, a Kayanian king later known as Kay Khosrow, together with Zoroaster and Jamasp (a premier of Zoroaster's patron Vishtaspa, another Kayanian king) are seen to worship in Airyanem Vaejah. King Haosravah is described to have united the various Aryan tribes as one nation (Yasht 5.49, 9.21, 15.32, 17.41)."
A
number of monhts ago, an article was posted regaridng the history of
the Lion and the Sun motifs on Iranian flags. The image below was
originally identified as an Achaemenid seal of King Artaxerxes II (at
left) facing the godess Anahita who sits atop a lion. The seal however
was not produced in the Achaemenid era, but after the fall of the
Achaaemedis and is traceable to the post-Achaemenid dynasties of
Anatolia known as Commagene, Cappadocia and the Pontus.
The seal was discovered along the northeastern shore of the
Black Sea (Consult Collon, 1987, no. 432) in the region of the ancient
Pontus. The seal is in the British museum and not the Hermitage Museum
of St. Petersburg as is often assumed.
Before we discuss (or revisit) the themes imprinted upon the plaque,
we need to first provide a sketch of the successor states 0f Anatolia
following the fall of the Achaemenids in 333-323 BC.
The Greco-Persian Legacy of Anatolia: An Overview
As Parthia gained prominence on the Iranian plateau and Mesopotamia,
Persian culture had (once again) risen in prominence in Anatolia as it
had during the Achaemenid era. Despite the fall of the Achamenid Empire a
few hundred years before, the legacy of Iranic culture had never
departed from eastern and central Anatolia. The Hellenic conquests had
certinaly resulted in political divisions with different regional
monarchies, however the:Iranic Culture of Pontus-Cappadocia endured.
The
Kingdoms of Anatolia, Pontus, Commagene and Cappadocia bore a very
strong Iranian cultural, artistic and mythological tradtion which was
combined with that of ancient Greece. The kingdoms were later absorbed
by the Roman Empire. Eastern Anatolia to this day endures with a
distinct Iranic tradition with its Kurdish population speaking a west
Iranian language akin to Persian.
The most famous Pontic leader was Mithradates (Mehrdad ) VI Eupator
who was raised in the Greek language but also learned Persian
(Bickerman, 1985, p.103; Raditsa, 1985, p.110). Plutarch notes that
Mehrdad Eupator appeared in “Persian Dress“.
Mithradates
(Mehrdad ) VI Eupator (134-63 BC). Mithradates spoke both Persian and
Greek and sought to combine the traditions of both Greece and Persia.
According to Plutarch, he appeared in “Persian Dress”.
Some Iranian influence even extended to Ionian coast along Aegean.
Plutarch had noted that the cultural exchanges taking place in Ephesos
(near modern Izmir in western Turkey), were leading to latter’s
“barbarization” (Plutarch, Lys. 3). In Lycia, Iranic names become
widespread among the nobility (Dandamaev & Lukonin, 1989, p.300). It
was this Greco-Iranian legacy that was to inspire Mithradates of
Eupador.
However, to characterize those regions as exclusively Iranian is
simplistic: Eastern Anatolia bears a powerful Hellenic and subsequent
Armenian imprint as well. During the Achaemenid era Greek cities began
to be founded along the Black Sea coast Just as the Iranian Magi,
nobility & settlers were arriving into the region. A similar process
of Irano-Greek fusion had been taking place in the ancient Ukraine
since at least Median times.
Just twenty years after the passing of the Hellenic conquerer
Alexander in 333 BC, two independent Irano-Anatolian monarchies gained
power in Anatolia by 305 BC: the Kingdoms of Pontus and Cappadocia. What
is especially of interest is that their subjects claimed descent from
the Achaemenids of the First Persian Empire (Raditsa, 1985, p.106). Note
the contrast to those Iranians west of the Halys River in western
Anatolia:who had become Hellenecized after the conquests of Alexander.
The Iranians of Cappadocia: fought against Alexander at Gaugamela in
331 BC and continued to resist the Greeks, even after the fall of the
Achaemenids Empire (Raditsa, 1985, p.106). Hellenization took longer to
find its roots in Cappadocia and began a century after Alexander’s
conquests. The Iranian character of Cappadocia recognized as late as the
time of Roman Emperor Augustus by the ancient historian Strabo who
considered Cappadocia as: “a living part of Persia” (Strabo XV, 3.15).
Cappadocia bore a strong Zoroastrian legacy. Despite Alexander’s
conquests of Asia Mino, Cappadocia still had many Iranian temples and
Zoroastrian magi by the advent of Parthian rule in Persia (Strabo, XI,
14.16, XV, 733). Remarkable is the term of Grand Magus as being second
after the king (Strabo, XII, 2.3). This term is found in Achaemenid,
Parthian and Sassanian Persia.
The Mithraic-Zoroastrian temples of Cappadocia also served as centers
of worship for the populations of: Armenia and Pontus (Raditsa, 1985,
p.107) just as the temples of Media Atropatene did for Medes, Persians,
Hyrcanians and other Iranic peoples of the Parthian realm.
By the 1st century BC Antiochus I of Commagne spoke of combining the
mythology and cultures of Greece and Persia. His geneology claimed
Iranian descent from the Achaemenids and Greek descent from Alexander.
Statue at Nimrud-Dagh (ancient Commagene). Note the
combination of tall conical Persian hat (still used by mystic cults and
Dervishes) with Greek style of anthropomorphic depiction. Antiochus I
(86-38 BC) spoke Greek but dressed in Iranian style and demanded that
the local Magi dress like the Persians. The surviving statues and
architecture of Nimrud-Dagh shows a clear synthesis of Greek and Persian
arts and architecture (Ghirschman, 1962).
The regions of Cappadocia and Pontus failed to attract the same level
of Hellenic immigration as those further east and south into Iran and
Mesopotamia. As noted by Raditsa,
“…Hellenization in lands like Pontus and Cappadocia meant that the natives Hellenized themselves” (1985, p.112)
Assyriology notes on the Plaque: Heir to a Mesopotamian Tradition
But what of the plaque discussed in the introduction of the article?
It is interesting that the seal shows the sun emanating 21 rays, the
same symbol which is used by varous ancient Iranic cults among the Kurds
of Iran, Iraq and Turkey. The 21 rays may be related to the festival
date of Mehregan (Festival of the Sun-god Mithra) which takes place from
the 16th to the 21st of Mehr of the Iranian calendar.
That too is in the post-Achaemenid tradition of arts and its style
bears a stronger resemblance to the Achaemenid rather than the Hellenic
arts. This was (as noted earlier) found in the site of the ancient
Pontus where the imprint of Zoroastrianism was strong.
The plaque represents Anahita superimposed on a solar deity - perhaps
the ancient Iranic god Mithras. But is the theme specifically Iranic
and/or Zoroastrian? The discipline of Assyriology provides an
interesting explanation as to an ancient Mesopotamian tradition that has
exerted its own influence upon the Iranian-type seal.
Professor Simo Parpola accounts of the the seal are as follows:
"The Achaemenid seal discovered on the northeast coast of the Black
Sea and represents the goddess Anahita, mounted on a lion and surrounded
by the divine radiance, appearing to a Persian king. The details of the
king’s and the goddess’s dress and crown are Persian, but in all other
respects the seal is a faithful reproduction of centuries older Assyrian
seals depicting appearances of the goddess Ishtar to members of the
imperial ruling class. It thus illustrates not only the adoption of the
Mesopotamian concept of “divine radiance” by the Persians"
A Neo-Assyrian seal (circa 750-650 BC) of Ishtar (at left)
standing with her bow on her mythical lion. She is faced by a
worshipper. British Museum. The Assyrian and Mesopotamian tradition in
general certainly left a robust legacy on the Achaemenid Persians who
succeeded them. Indeed the Aramaic language was the Lingua Franca of the
Achaemenid Empire.
Therefore while the Achaemenid (or post-Achaemenid) seal has Iranian
mythological themes, its artistic motifs have certainly drawn from an
ancient Mesopotamian tradition.
References
Collon, D. (1987). First Impressions: Cylinder Seals in the Ancient Near East. London: British Museum Publications.
Dandamaev, M., & Lukonin, V.G. (1989). The Culture and Social
Institutions of Ancient Iran. New York: Cambridge University Press.
Ghirshman, R. (1962). Iran: Parthians and Sassanians. London: Thames & Hudson.
Nissinen, M. (Editor) (2000). Prophecy in Its Ancient Near Eastern
Context: Mesopotamian, Biblical, and Arabian. Atlanta, GA: Society of
Biblical Literature.
Parpolo, S. (1997). Assyrian Prophecies. Helsinki, Finland:Helsinki University.
Regradless of how much of genetic impact the Iranic tribes had, the Iranic heritage of the Kurds also includes culture and language. Persians,Lors,Gilaks,Talysh,Ossetians are all in the same boat and they are not less iranic then east iranians, because they have more mixed genetic ancestory.
Most of the important historical points of Iranian history happend in West Iran and by west iranians, and their descendants live in West Iranians. Before Fars, Persians were around lake urmia and they would of also had incroperated some of the local population before even moving to Fars. The Medes, Achaemenids, Parthians, even the Sassanids were all mostly mixed and they identified themselves as Aryans and even the Sassanids were the first to name Iran(Eran) meaning the "Land of Aryans".
Anyway I still don't think that testing 87 Kurds out of 20+ Million Anatolian Kurds is a good indication it would be the same on a larger tests. For all we know the people they had tested all came from the same region.
No nation is geneticaly pure or carry 100% linage of the people that established the identiy and language, Look at Northern Europeans they are mainly all R1b and I and yet Eastern Indo-Europeans do not carry that linage. Humans have tendancy to mix and incroperate other people.
Yes, all Iranian speakers in the Middle East are actually on the same boat as the Kurds (In terms of mixing), I was just stating facts, and yes, no one is 100% pure, but these are the facts that we have in front of us, there's no need to make assumptions when there's no evidence on those assumptions, from all DNA studies done on the Kurds it points them to the Middle East (Around Eastern Anatolia and the Zagros) as their homeland, until further evidence show up, I'm going to believe that the Kurds are Middle Eastern natives for most part with some minor Iranic background.
Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity, Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation. Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present. Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land. Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians.
Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity, Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation. Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present. Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land. Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians.
Yes, I'm basing this on genetic grounds, I mean afterall, we're talking about ancestors here, language and culture can be adopted which happens all the time.
Anyways, I'm gonna stop arguing here, this whole thing looks like a turning circle and I think I'm done proving my point.
Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity, Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation. Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present. Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land. Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians.
Yes, I'm basing this on genetic grounds, I mean afterall, we're talking about ancestors here, language and culture can be adopted which happens all the time.
Anyways, I'm gonna stop arguing here, this whole thing looks like a turning circle and I think I'm done proving my point.
Heres the thing, Kurds only claim they are the descendeds of the Medo-Scythians that were in Kurdistan, which they are. I do not think genetic is the basis of ethnicity, take away language and culture and the even Kurdish religion of Ezidi and all you are left with is a empty shell, then you are no longer a Kurd. Same with Persians,Lors,Gilaks,Talysh,Ossetiens,Mazandaranis they all carry the legacy of the their ancestors and no matter how much of small genetic imprint they have they are still Iranic.
Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language?
Once again, maybe or maybe not. How do you know which genetics the Medes had? Maybe they had the same genetics as the modern Kurds.
Maybe the Medes had Hg 'F', Hg 'K', Hg 'I' and Hg 'J2' ( Hg IJK -> HgIJ ) and Hg 'R' in them. And Kurds are not pure Medes, they're partly Hurrian. Maybe the Hurrians also belonged to the Hg 'F', Hg 'I', 'J2', 'K', 'G', 'R' etc. But nobody knows which Hg is Median and which Hg is Hurrian. It's impossible, because haplogroups are much older than the Medes, Hurrians and other ancient people.
Like modern people, ancient people also belonged to more haplogroups. And not just 1 haplogroup. Haplogroups doesn't mean anything. There're no races! There is just 1 race, the human race.
And the fact is that we are mostly connected with the Medes than to other people.
Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language?
Once again, maybe or maybe not. How do you know which genetics the Medes had? Maybe they had the same genetics as the modern Kurds.
Maybe the Medes had Hg 'F', Hg 'K', Hg 'I' and Hg 'J2' ( Hg IJK -> HgIJ ) and Hg 'R' in them. And Kurds are not pure Medes, they're partly Hurrian. Maybe the Hurrians also belonged to the Hg 'F', Hg 'I', 'J2', 'K', 'G', 'R' etc. But nobody knows which Hg is Median and which Hg is Hurrian. It's impossible, because haplogroups are much older than the Medes, Hurrians and other ancient people.
Like modern people, ancient people also belonged to more haplogroups. And not just 1 haplogroup. Haplogroups doesn't mean anything. There're no races! There is just 1 race, the human race.
And the fact is that we are mostly connected with the Medes than to other people.
We do know that Persians and Medes were both located around North Iran in the early days and likely, like I mentioned before, the unions were likely made up of natives and the Iranic tribes and eventually the Iranic identiy became more dominant. Iranic tribes of Medes and Persians likely came threw the Caucasus region rather then the east. and maybe they might of incroperated some people even before arriving to Iran. Kurds of Iran are very close to Persians and Lors in mtDNA and close to North Iran and Caucasians. Kurds of Iran, are genetically closer to Iranians of Iran then to Kurds of Anatolia, because of the vast distance and lack of gene flow and also the political states and dynasty that have ruled each region. Regradless they are still Kurds.
Well , after reading most of this topic I conclude the fallowing : This topic is something I call a blind Patriot vs the facts .
Remember : in History only facts and neutral Psychology counts , nothing else ! and since this rule is not being followed here , I bet that this topic is going to reach even further then 30 pages without even coming to a proper conclusion .
Well , after reading most of this topic I conclude the fallowing : This topic is something I call a blind Patriot vs the facts .
Remember : in History only facts and neutral Psychology counts , nothing else ! and since this rule is not being followed here , I bet that this topic is going to reach even further then 30 pages without even coming to a proper conclusion .
Could you please give more details on your thoughts?
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