Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?

 who gives you that right to call other kurds jash ? why you try to splite kurds ? i never said you are a jash , but it seems you are one of them, because you are used to this word . 

Edited by kalhur - 17-Apr-2010 at 06:46

who said i hate my kurdish origin ? actually as a traitor and sadam'sboy  you are used to insult the other kurds . sorani is not a place it is a kurdish dialect . are you sorani speaking kurd from takrit. 

Edited by kalhur - 20-Apr-2010 at 03:27

 it is your assumption of yourself  by yourself. 

Edited by kalhur - 24-Apr-2010 at 08:18

Reading more into Kurdish origins I came across this and it surprisingly supports my theory that todays Kurds came about after the fall of the Sassanids.

John Limbert: The Origins of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran

In spite of the apparent similarity between the words Kurd and Kardu, Kyrtiae, and Corduene, philologists feel that the older terms are distinct from Kurd by reason of the final short vowel which is part of the root of these words, i.e., Kardu (kardu-karduw)     and Kyrti.  The initial K or Kardu may actually represent I, in which case there is a connection with the Semitic root QRD*, meaning brave or strong.  Furthermore, Kardu may be related to Kart'veli, the indigenous name for the Georgians.  The name Kurd probably comes from the Persian  Gord, meaning "hero", which would be an Iranian interpretation of the local name, Kardu or Qardu.

From what I have been reading, the only mention of Kurds in Iranian history pre-islamic times was during the Sassanids, to describe Nomadic tribes and they lived further south in Fars provance.  These tribes are believed to have been Lur in origin, some tribes by the names that are mentioned still exist among Lurs.

Could these tribes have moved to the North? But todays Kurds don't speak Lur, but share many cultural similarties, Or were todays Kurds born after fall of the Sassanids? Name was gradually adopted due to Social label or do to Arabs making a mistake in name?

What you guys think?





Edited by Ince - 24-Apr-2010 at 18:38

Originally posted by Xorto Like i wrote in the other Artice.  The ancestors of Kurds are Medians which themselves were just a conforderation of hundrets of Tribes like Urartian, Hurrians, Scyths, Hethits, Lullubis, Cassits, gutis, carduks and so on. The Medians we know were not a homogene Nation. Even the first Median King Kyaxares I. was a half Urartian

Xorto, do you think linguastic can shed some more light on Kurdish history? I am still trying to understand why Kurmanji has strong SW elements.  Even tho Kurmanji speakers live right next Zaza in the North yet they have many similarties to Persian, even Gorani and Hawramni don't have this much similarties with Persian and they live more closer.

Kurds claim that Kurmanji was the language of the Medes? 

Zazaki	Persian	Kurmanci		English
b	d	d		-
ber	dar	deri		door

Zazaki	Persian	Kurmanci
hr	s	s
hri	se	se (loan)[10]
hris	si	si (loan)[10]

Zazaki	Persian	Kurmanci		English
w	x(u)	x(w)		-
witiš	xwāb	xew		sleep
weš	xoš	xweš		sweet
wend-	xānd-	xwend-		read
wa	xāhar	xweh		sister
werd-	xord-	xward-		swallow, eat

Zazaki	Persian	Kurmanci		English
v	b / g	b / g		-
vā	bād	bā		wind
vārān	bārān	bārān		rain
vāc	āvāz	bēj		sing, say
vāz-	bez-	bez-		run
vang	bang	bang, dang		voice
veyv	bayo	buk		bride, wedding
varek	barre	barx		sheep
vawr, vor	barf	befr		snow
vēn, vīn	bīn-	bīn-		see
vīst	bist	bist		twenty
vīyā	bīve	bī		widow
viyāl	bid	bi		willow
vāš	giyāh	giyā		grass
vil	gul	gul		Flower
varg	gorg	gurg		wolf

Zazaki	Kurmanci	Persian		English
z/s	z/s	d/h		-
zerri	dil	dil		heart
zerd	zêr	zar		gold
zan-	zan-	dān-		know
zama	zava	dāmād		groom
ez	ez (min)	ed- (man)		I
berz	bilind	boland		borough, high
des	deh	dah		ten

Zazaki	Persian	Kurmanci		English
ĵ	z	ž		-
ĵeni	zan	žın		woman
ĵin-	zan-	žen-		playing music, to beat
ĵiwiyayıš	zīstan	žıyan		live
ĵinde	zende	zındi (loan)		alive
ĵor	zabar- (bala)	žor		up
ĵêr	zīr	žêr		down
ĵi	az/ze	ži		from
roĵ	rūz	rož		day
vaĵ	āvāz	bêž		say, sing
pewĵ-	paz-	pêž		cook

Originally posted by kalhur Ince actually the language of medes and pers maybe not being very different from begining.  the lore tribes in central iran which are medes from beging do speak lory dialect which is even much more near to FARSI than kurdish. a fars can nearly understand what a lore is saying in lory!!!it sounds more like a persian dialect than being a different language!!  it is why there is such a similarity between kurdish and farsi language medes and persians were very close related peoples from the begining. they do build together achemenide and sasanide empire too.

I have noticed that Lur is similar to Persian, which angerd some Kurdish Nationalists who claim Lurs are Kurds, even Laki who identify themselves as Kurds have many Persian and Lur words.

Infact many of the Kurdish languages are pretty different from eachother but have inlfuenced eachother over time.  Kalhuri and Sorani is somtimes categorized as sub dialects of Kurmanji.  Where as Gorani and Zaza are categorized as Zaza-Gorani, been more similar to eachother.  Laki and Feyli are seen as Luri.

Not much or any written words of the Medes has been found, so it makes it difficult to point out which language group is descended from it.  Sometimes Kurdish is categorized as been offshoot of Parthian.

Heres a text that was found in N.Iraq and is believed to have been in the Parthian language, and Hawrmani speakers can understand it.  Also damm the Arab invasion

Hurmizgan (also Hurmuzgan, Hormizgan) is the name of an ancient Kurdish poem written on skin from muslim Arabs attacks era about 13 centuries ago. It was found around Hezarmerd village in Sulaimani province in Iraqi Kurdistan in the beginning of 19th century.

The Kurdish text and its translation in English is as following:

Hurmizgan riman, Atiran kujan

Wishan Shardewe gewrey gewrekan

Zorkar ereb kirne xapûr

Ginay paleyi heta Sharezûr

Jin u kenikan we dil beshina

Mêrd aza tli we ruy hwêna

Reweshti Zerdeshtre manuwe bekes

Bezeyika neka Hewrmez we hwichkes.

• English translation:

The temples destroyed, the fires were turn off, (killed)

the greatest of the sirs hided himself

Cruel Arabs destroyed

The villages of poor peoples till Sharezur

They enslaved girls and women

brave men dived into their blood

The Zoroastrianism lost its followers

Ahuramazda felt pity on no one.

• Kurdish(Hawrami Dialect) transliteration:

هورمزگان رمان، ئاتران کوژان

ویشان شاردوه گه‌وره‌ی گه‌وره‌کان

زۆر کار ئه‌ره‌ب کرنه‌ خاپور

گنای پاله ئی هه‌تا شارزور

ژن و که‌نکیان وه دیل به‌شینا

میرد ئازا تلی وه روی هوێنا

روشت زه‌رده‌شتره مانوه بی که‌س

به‌زه‌یکا نیکا هورمز وه‌ هویچ که‌س

Edited by Ince - 07-May-2010 at 03:29

Originally posted by kalhur how old is this text, because without translation it is  easy for me to understand  it !! almost the words are same !!! it is not much different from our kalhuri dialect!! i love hawrami music . they are very talanted in music and poems.!

It says around, 1300 years ago.  So around 100 years after the Arab Invasion.  I also notice many similar words to Kurmanji, but my Kurdish is not that good so maybe more words are similar.

I too like Hawramni music, specially this one, I little bit of what the singer says. I recently found out that Parwana is a girls name, in India it means Butterfly  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GERJdZl5goo

Originally posted by kalhur  i saw that video klip it was very nice  dance. hawramani are very nice people. i have been a couple of times traveling in hawaramant  more than 40 years ago the hawrami girls are among most beautiful girls  and hawrami men are known to be very brave fighters too.

I've never met a Harmani Kurd, but looking at that video I can see why they are seen as brave, they look strong built.

@Ince are you shadow? if yes you should know best why it is. If not i can tell you the guy who made this tables is well known by me. look it is a lie and total false to say kurmanci has more persian influence than hewrami!! Hewrami even adopted in some areas the persian suffix mi while kurmanci is still using it´s own suffix de! The reason why zazaki has less persian influence is because zazaki was just used in villages and foreclosed from the other big languages while kurmanci was  used as conservation language between persians and other kurdish tribes! Thats why the population of kurmanci speaker is today higher than the one of zazaki speaker. And it is not proved that the medians used v instead of b! according to the latest results we can be sure that the scyths even used b instead of v. The important thing is just what do you see as the source language. 

Originally posted by Xorto @Ince are you shadow? if yes you should know best why it is. If not i can tell you the guy who made this tables is well known by me. look it is a lie and total false to say kurmanci has more persian influence than hewrami!! Hewrami even adopted in some areas the persian suffix mi while kurmanci is still using it´s own suffix de! The reason why zazaki has less persian influence is because zazaki was just used in villages and foreclosed from the other big languages while kurmanci was  used as conservation language between persians and other kurdish tribes! Thats why the population of kurmanci speaker is today higher than the one of zazaki speaker. And it is not proved that the medians used v instead of b! according to the latest results we can be sure that the scyths even used b instead of v. The important thing is just what do you see as the source language.

No I did not make that I got it from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language#Phonological_Correspondences_of_Zazaki_and_other_Iranian_Languages

I am Kurmanji speaker and my Kurdish is ok not very good, the Kurmanji words that I know look correct to me, I am not if all,  I also am not sure about the Zazaki and Persian, I think when they use Persian on that Chart it does not mean soley Farsi it could also be Tajik and Dari.

I just turned 17 a few weeks ago, so I am still knew to all this.  I have for the past few months looking for articles regarding Kurdish languages and most of them always mention that Kurmanji/Sorani has SW elements, example here http://www.iranica.com/articles/kurdish-language-i

These similarties could of taken shape during Old or Middle-Persian, I've read somewhere that Kurdish is more similar to Middle-Persian then to Modern Persian.   It does not have to be that Persian influenced Kurdish, it could be that Kurdish speakers were in more closer contact with Persians and the similarties could of shaped together






Edited by Ince - 07-May-2010 at 16:54