Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 25>
Author
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?
    Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 21:02
In his book Izady mentions the "Great Kurdish migration from southern Zagros", so when did this happen? Just that, some Anatolian Kurds could of come from the Zagros, according to Izady.   I could not read the whole book as Google books only allows me to read a few pages.

http://oi55.tinypic.com/mcck1d.jpg%20src=http://oi55.tinypic.com/mcck1d.jpg

http://oi54.tinypic.com/2eq3v2t.jpg


Edited by Ince - 20-Jan-2011 at 21:04
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 19:33
I still believe that Northern Kurds are more Scythian influenced then Median.  Why do some Kurds believe Corduene was a Scythian kingdom?
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 09:51

Originally posted by Ince

Some areas of Central Kurdistan was likely Median, but what about Northern Kurds? They are likely descendants of the Scythians.

I also believe Northern Kurds are also descend from other Iranian tribes that had settled in Anatolia and eventually became Kurds. Kingdoms such as the Cappadocia and other iranic presences in Anatolia.
No I think all Kurds are the descendants of the Medes. By the Medes I mean all Indo-European tribes in Kurdistan together.

A Scythian king, Madya, conquered and ruled the Median Empire from c. 653-625 BCE. That was even before the Medes (Cyaxares) destroyed the Assyrian Empire (621 BCE). Cyaxares (he was a Mede) did that because an Assyrian king, Ashurbanipal, killed Phraortes. Phraortes was the father of Cyaxares. Cyaxares revenged the death of his father.

Even before Phraortes was killed a Scythian king, Madya, ruled over Media. That means that Scythians also were in eastern Kurdistan (Iranian Kurdistan). They lived together with the Medes.

 

So not only northern Kurds have some Scythian blood, but also the eastern Kurds. So all Kurds have Scythian blood. But not only Scythian blood, but also the Median one and the blood of other Indo-European tribes in Kurdistan.

 

Do you remember the Mannaeans? The Mannaeans built Ecbatana, early capital of the Medes. When that happened the Scythians lived already together with the Medes in eastern Kurdistan. The Medes annexed the land of the Mannaeans and the Mannaean people. Mannaeans were not Indo-European. This means that the Medes (and Scythians) mixed already with the aboriginal people of Kurdistan n the early times, even before the collapse of the Assyrian Empire.

But it´s all started with the Medes. So the Medes were the founding fathers of the Kurds. All Kurdish intellectuals and historians are saying that Kurds are the Medes. They're right!



Edited by MediaWarLord - 20-Jan-2011 at 10:18
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 08:27
Some areas of Central Kurdistan was likely Median, but what about Northern Kurds?  They are likely descendeds of the Sycthians. 

I also believe Northern Kurds are also descend from other Iranian tribes that had settled in Anatolia and eventually became Kurds.   Kingdoms such as the Cappadocia and other iranic presences in Anatolia. 

Briton unearths Herodotus' lost city of the Medes

An archaeologist's model brings history to life

By Simon de Bruxelles
< ="text/">div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited { color: rgb(0, 102, 204); }
A LOST city described by the Greek historian Herodotus has been identified by a British archaeologist in central Turkey.

Geoffrey Summers has identified the vast mountain site as Pteria, the western capital of the Medes. The discovery may finally end the debate among scholars about the veracity of Herodotus’ account.

Dr Summers’s work has provided the first concrete evidence of the long-forgotten Medean empire. Using the latest archaeological surveying techniques and computer graphics Dr Summers and his team have begun to reconstruct a “virtual reality” model of the ancient city which, according to Herodotus, was looted and burnt to the ground by the army of the Lydian King Croesus.

In 1975, Dr Summers, 52, became fascinated by the fortified iron age city on the side of a granite mountain called Kerkenes Dag. The 2.5 sq km site is still surrounded by a 7km defensive wall with seven gates that can be seen from space.

Beneath a 2,600-year-old shroud of soil everything is exactly as it was left when the inhabitants of Pteria were reputedly marched off into slavery. Because of the size of the site, conventional archaeological techniques could provide only limited information about the development of the city which, in its heyday in the fifth century BC, was home to 10,000 to 20,000 people.

Dr Summers and his wife Françoise have spent the past ten years surveying the site using everything from aerial photography from a hot air balloon to ground-penetrating radar and GPS to map the ancient structures to an accuracy of 10cm. It is the first time such a large archaeological site in Turkey has been mapped in such detail.

It was evidence of a great fire that convinced Mr Summers that he had found Pteria, the western capital of the Medes, who emerged from Ancient Persia in the sixth century BC to occupy what is now Eastern Anatolia.

Although there are a few references to the Medes in later Greek and Assyrian records, there is little contemporary evidence of their existence, although the Kurds are widely thought to be their modern descendants. According to Herodotus, the war between the Medes and the Lydians culminated in the Battle of the Eclipse. As the battle raged, an eclipse blacked out the sun and the combatants laid down their arms and withdrew. The eclipse has allowed the battle to be dated to May 28, 585BC, when the city surveyed by Mr Summers would have been at its height.

Within a generation Pteria had been sacked by Croesus and the site abandoned and forgotten. Dr Summers has uncovered evidence that it was looted and its fortifications toppled to prevent it being re-occupied. The archaeological account ties in precisely with that of Herodotus.

Dr Summers said: “At the time we began studying the site there was a view that Herodotus’ account was at best inaccurate or at worst made up. There were even doubts about the Medean empire itself.

“Archaeologically, we know nothing about the Medes. This project puts them on the map and it supports Herodotus’ accounts.”

Dr Summers, who was born in London but has taught at the Middle East Technical University in Ankara for 18 years, said: “The size and complexity of the city are astonishing. It was built when the Greek city states were colonising the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, so it fills a gap in the history of city planning.”

This week Dr Summers became the only British recipient of the bi-annual Rolex Awards for Enterprise. He will be presented with a cheque for $35,000 (£22,500) at a ceremony at the Royal Insitution in London on November 6. Dr Summers will use the money to rebuild the city’s main gates, which stand 5m high, and to excavate more of the palace complex. Norman Hammond, The Times archaeological correspondent, said Dr Summers’ identification of the city was important because it would shed light on the Medeans and allow artefacts to be dated to within ten years.

Words of the 'legend'

“Croesus, when he had crossed (the Halys River) with his army, came into Cappadocian territory, to what is called Pteria. Pteria is the strongest part of all that country and lies in a line with the city of Sinope, on the Euxine Sea. There he encamped, destroying the farms of the Syrians and he captured the city of the Pterians and made slaves of the people, and he captured all the neighbouring towns; moreover, he drove the Syrians from their homes, though they had done him no manner of harm.

Cyrus, on his side, gathered his own army, and took on, as well, all the peoples who lived between him and Croesus (before he set out to march at all, he sent heralds to the Ionians and tried to make them desert Croesus. But the Ionians would not listen to him). So when Cyrus came and encamped over against Croesus, then and there in that land of Pteria they fought against one another with might and main.

The battle was fierce, and many fell on both sides. At last they broke off at the onset of night, without either having the victory, so hard did the two armies fight.”


Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2011 at 23:03
I think Scythians and the Medes lived together, because a Scythian king, Madya conquered and ruled the Median Empire from c. 653-625 BCE.
 
The father of Phraortes was Diyako. He was a Mannaean provincial governor. The original homeland of Mannaeans was situated east and south of the Lake Urmia, near Mehabad, eastern Kurdistan.
 
Under HIS rule Ecbatana (Hamadan) was built. So the Mannaeans built Ecbatana. And they came from the Lake Urmia region, near Mehabad (eastern Kurdistan !!! ). The Medes annexed those Mannaeans.
 


Edited by MediaWarLord - 19-Jan-2011 at 23:36
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2011 at 22:30
The royal tomb of Phraortes ( 675- 653 BC ). The father of Cyaxares. He was Killed by the king of Assyria
It's near Hamadan, Kurdish city in eastern Kurdistan. The tomb of his son is near a southern Kurdish city Silemani. The Medes came from the east, defeated the Assyrians and settled in Kurdistan. Period !!!
 
 
Tomb of  Phraortes (c. 665 - 633 BC, killed by Ashurbanipal). Hamadan, Kurdistan.
 
 
Tomb of Cyaxares (r. 625 - 585 BC, legendary King destroyed Assyria) . Silemani, Kurdistan.


Edited by MediaWarLord - 19-Jan-2011 at 23:07
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2011 at 22:23
There is also another Median royal tomb in Kur-u Kich, 25 km away from the royal tom of Cyaxares!

Edited by MediaWarLord - 19-Jan-2011 at 22:33
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2011 at 22:02
Originally posted by Ince

MediaWorLord,

Like I mentioned to you before, North and Central Kurds Iranic heritage mainly comes from Syctho-Sarmatians and less likely from Medes.  The Kurds of Iran are likely descendeds from Medes.  The Medes and Sycthians were very close. 
Here is the tomb of Cyaxares (Havaxstra), the legendery king who overthrew the Assyrian Empire. It's near a Kurdish city Silemani in South Kurdistan (KRG = Kurdish Regional Government)! All Kurds are children of the Medes...
 
Even Cyaxares is buried in S. Kurdistan. How much evidence do you need?
 


Edited by MediaWarLord - 19-Jan-2011 at 22:46
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2011 at 20:30
I find rather interesting


Some Dimili Alevis, as well as the Yezidi clans, still maintain the ancient Iranic rite of worshipping the deity represented as a sword stuck into the ground. Mark Sykes in 1908 mentions this practice among a few Dimili tribes: the Bosikân, Kuriân, and apparently also the Zekiri, Musi, and Sarmi, but he adds that at the time the last three no longer practiced it. This rite is mentioned by Herodotus for the Iranic Scythians and Sarmatians (kinsmen of the Kurds and other Iranic peoples) in Ukraine of 2300 years ago. (The resemblancc between the Dimili tribal name Sarmi and the that of Sarmatians is also worthy of note.) The image of the sword stuck in the ground or a rock is of course similar to that of the British Excalibur and King Arthur. There is a strong possibility that the two are related. In AD 175, Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius assigned a legion of Sarmatians from Pannonia (modern Hungary) to serve in England and Scotland (the Sarmatians' comrnander's name was Lucius Artorius Castus!). According to Nickel, the basic elements of the legend may have been introduced into Britain by these Sarmatian settlers, and the familiar story of Excalibur may thus be akin to this Dimili Alevi religious practice. The Dimila are the last Iranic people still practicing the ancient rite.

Sources: The Kurds, A Concise Handbook, By Dr. Mehrdad R. Izady,


Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2011 at 20:10
One of the best Kurdish songs released recently.



Song is in Turkish, its one of fav songs and the Singer is Kurdish and was born in my city.


Gorani Kurds, love this song!!



Edited by Ince - 19-Jan-2011 at 20:41
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2011 at 20:03
Pictures of Kurdish Kids Smile


http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/3173/img_4778.jpghttp://www.pukmedia.com/english/images/stories/hogr4/kurdishchildren.jpghttp://www.international.ucla.edu/media/images/turtlescanfly.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9695/lfc11go5.jpg
http://www.haberpanorama.com/images/news/9278.jpg




http://www.analizmerkezi.com/image/haber/Resim_1285851770.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2581/3775942783_7409f8f532.jpg
http://galeri.uludagsozluk.com/10/k%C3%BCrt-%C3%A7ocuklar%C4%B1_68184.jpg

kürt çocukları

http://www.guzelvebakimli.com/wp-content/uploads/kurtkizi.jpg
http://www.turkiyehaberajansi.com/userfiles//mrd-2.jpg
http://hunney.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/diyarbakir-by-petra-nuzdorfer-67.jpg
http://galeri.uludagsozluk.com/60/k%C3%BCrt-%C3%A7ocu%C4%9Fu_75590.jpg
http://img2.blogcu.com/images/s/i/z/sizofrenaksamlar/487829bebb3ff5abba08caeuq1.jpg
http://www.travel-images.com/pht/iran433.jpg
http://centralasia.imb.org/pwalk/images/KPwalkKids.jpg
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID25600/images/resized_4087291740_2c93ff9327.jpg

http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2003/03/24/20030323144133.jpeg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2523/3865589274_98a0b2ca87.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2519/3864804407_355d16e2f8.jpg
http://www.damascusbureau.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/12.jpg
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/stories/products/sfi/kurdishchildren-01.jpg
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/stories/products/sfi/kurdishgirl-01.jpg

http://i1.treklens.com/photos/15497/67_bb-l2b.jpg
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/stories/products/sfi/prettykursihgirl-01.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3324/3452289254_f4091b1da7.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Children_puppy_sulaimania.jpg


Edited by Ince - 19-Jan-2011 at 20:03
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2011 at 16:18
Originally posted by Ramyar

Well , after reading most of this topic I conclude the fallowing :
This topic is something I call a blind Patriot vs the facts .

Remember : in History only facts and neutral Psychology counts , nothing else !
and since this rule is not being followed here , I bet that this topic is going to reach even further then 30 pages without even coming to a proper conclusion .






Could you please give more details on your thoughts?
Back to Top
Ramyar View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 13-Jan-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6
  Quote Ramyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2011 at 15:50
Well , after reading most of this topic I conclude the fallowing :
This topic is something I call a blind Patriot vs the facts .

Remember : in History only facts and neutral Psychology counts , nothing else !
and since this rule is not being followed here , I bet that this topic is going to reach even further then 30 pages without even coming to a proper conclusion .






Edited by Ramyar - 18-Jan-2011 at 15:51
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2011 at 12:50
Kurdish tribes

Their is  large Laki tribe South Western Kurdistan in Anatolia, did not know that. 

http://oi54.tinypic.com/1zq5ukh.jpg


Edited by Ince - 17-Jan-2011 at 12:54
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2011 at 10:46
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Ince

Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language?
Once again, maybe or maybe not. How do you know which genetics the Medes had? Maybe they had the same genetics as the modern Kurds.
 
Maybe the Medes had Hg 'F', Hg 'K', Hg 'I' and Hg 'J2' ( Hg IJK -> HgIJ ) and Hg 'R' in them. And Kurds are not pure Medes, they're partly Hurrian. Maybe the Hurrians also belonged to the Hg 'F', Hg 'I', 'J2', 'K', 'G', 'R' etc. But nobody knows which Hg is Median and which Hg is Hurrian. It's impossible, because haplogroups are much older than the Medes, Hurrians and other ancient people.
Like modern people, ancient people also belonged to more haplogroups. And not just 1 haplogroup. Haplogroups doesn't mean anything. There're no races! There is just 1 race, the human race.
 
And the fact is that we are mostly connected with the Medes than to other people.


We do know that Persians and Medes were both located around North Iran in the early days and likely, like I mentioned before,  the unions were likely made up of natives and the Iranic tribes and eventually the Iranic identiy became more dominant.  Iranic tribes of Medes and Persians likely came threw the Caucasus region rather then the east. and maybe they might of incroperated some people even before arriving to Iran.   Kurds of Iran are very close to Persians and Lors in mtDNA and close to North Iran and Caucasians.   Kurds of Iran, are genetically closer to Iranians of Iran then to Kurds of Anatolia, because of the vast distance and lack of gene flow and also the political states and dynasty that have ruled each region.  Regradless they are still Kurds. 

http://oi51.tinypic.com/2nw1wxy.jpg
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2s7z48g.jpg


Edited by Ince - 17-Jan-2011 at 10:48
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2011 at 22:01
Early Medes were likely a mix of Natives and iranian tribes and eventually the Iranian part became more dominant. 


Edited by Ince - 16-Jan-2011 at 22:04
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
  Quote MediaWarLord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2011 at 15:02
Originally posted by Ince

Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language?
Once again, maybe or maybe not. How do you know which genetics the Medes had? Maybe they had the same genetics as the modern Kurds.
 
Maybe the Medes had Hg 'F', Hg 'K', Hg 'I' and Hg 'J2' ( Hg IJK -> HgIJ ) and Hg 'R' in them. And Kurds are not pure Medes, they're partly Hurrian. Maybe the Hurrians also belonged to the Hg 'F', Hg 'I', 'J2', 'K', 'G', 'R' etc. But nobody knows which Hg is Median and which Hg is Hurrian. It's impossible, because haplogroups are much older than the Medes, Hurrians and other ancient people.
Like modern people, ancient people also belonged to more haplogroups. And not just 1 haplogroup. Haplogroups doesn't mean anything. There're no races! There is just 1 race, the human race.
 
And the fact is that we are mostly connected with the Medes than to other people.


Edited by MediaWarLord - 16-Jan-2011 at 15:14
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2011 at 19:08
Originally posted by Putty19

Originally posted by Ince

Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity,  Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation.   Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present.  Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land.   Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians. 


Yes, I'm basing this on genetic grounds, I mean afterall, we're talking about ancestors here, language and culture can be adopted which happens all the time.

Anyways, I'm gonna stop arguing here, this whole thing looks like a turning circle and I think I'm done proving my point.


Heres the thing, Kurds only claim they are the descendeds of the Medo-Scythians that were in Kurdistan, which they are.  I do not think genetic is the basis of ethnicity, take away language and culture and the even Kurdish religion of Ezidi and all you are left with is a empty shell, then you are no longer a Kurd.   Same with Persians,Lors,Gilaks,Talysh,Ossetiens,Mazandaranis they all carry the legacy of the their ancestors and no matter how much of small genetic imprint they have they are still Iranic.   


Back to Top
Putty19 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 21-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 111
  Quote Putty19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2011 at 17:16
Originally posted by Ince

Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity,  Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation.   Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present.  Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land.   Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians. 


Yes, I'm basing this on genetic grounds, I mean afterall, we're talking about ancestors here, language and culture can be adopted which happens all the time.

Anyways, I'm gonna stop arguing here, this whole thing looks like a turning circle and I think I'm done proving my point.
Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2011 at 09:09
Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity,  Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation.   Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present.  Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land.   Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians. 

Edited by Ince - 15-Jan-2011 at 09:11
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 25>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.143 seconds.