QuoteReplyTopic: Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't? Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 21:02
In his book Izady mentions the "Great Kurdish migration from southern Zagros", so when did this happen? Just that, some Anatolian Kurds could of come from the Zagros, according to Izady. I could not read the whole book as Google books only allows me to read a few pages.
Some areas of Central Kurdistan was likely Median, but what about Northern Kurds? They are likely descendants of the Scythians.
I also believe Northern Kurds are also descend from other Iranian tribes that had settled in Anatolia and eventually became Kurds. Kingdoms such as the Cappadocia and other iranic presences in Anatolia.
No I think all Kurds are the descendants of the Medes. By the Medes I mean all Indo-European tribes in Kurdistan together.
A Scythian king, Madya, conquered and ruled the Median Empire from c. 653-625 BCE. That was even before the Medes (Cyaxares)destroyed the Assyrian Empire (621 BCE). Cyaxares (he was a Mede) did that because an Assyrian king, Ashurbanipal, killed Phraortes. Phraortes was the father of Cyaxares. Cyaxares revenged the death of his father.
Even before Phraortes was killed a Scythian king, Madya, ruled over Media. That means that Scythians also were in eastern Kurdistan (Iranian Kurdistan). They lived together with the Medes.
So not only northern Kurds have some Scythian blood, but also the eastern Kurds. So all Kurds have Scythian blood. But not only Scythian blood, but also the Median one and the blood of other Indo-European tribes in Kurdistan.
Do you remember the Mannaeans? The Mannaeans built Ecbatana, early capital of the Medes. When that happened the Scythians lived already together with the Medes in eastern Kurdistan. The Medes annexed the land of the Mannaeans and the Mannaean people. Mannaeans were not Indo-European. This means that the Medes (and Scythians) mixed already with the aboriginal people of Kurdistan n the early times, even before the collapse of the Assyrian Empire.
But it´s all started with the Medes. So the Medes were the founding fathers of the Kurds. All Kurdish intellectuals and historians are saying that Kurds are the Medes. They're right!
Some areas of Central Kurdistan was likely Median, but what about Northern Kurds? They are likely descendeds of the Sycthians.
I also believe Northern Kurds are also descend from other Iranian tribes that had settled in Anatolia and eventually became Kurds. Kingdoms such as the Cappadocia and other iranic presences in Anatolia.
Briton unearths Herodotus' lost city of the Medes
An archaeologist's model brings history to life
By Simon de Bruxelles
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A LOST city described by the Greek historian Herodotus has been identified by a British archaeologist in central Turkey.
Geoffrey
Summers has identified the vast mountain site as Pteria, the western
capital of the Medes. The discovery may finally end the debate among
scholars about the veracity of Herodotus’ account.
Dr Summers’s work has provided the first concrete evidence of the
long-forgotten Medean empire. Using the latest archaeological surveying
techniques and computer graphics Dr Summers and his team have begun to
reconstruct a “virtual reality” model of the ancient city which,
according to Herodotus, was looted and burnt to the ground by the army
of the Lydian King Croesus.
In 1975, Dr Summers, 52, became fascinated by the fortified iron age
city on the side of a granite mountain called Kerkenes Dag. The 2.5 sq
km site is still surrounded by a 7km defensive wall with seven gates
that can be seen from space.
Beneath a 2,600-year-old shroud of soil everything is exactly as it
was left when the inhabitants of Pteria were reputedly marched off into
slavery. Because of the size of the site, conventional archaeological
techniques could provide only limited information about the development
of the city which, in its heyday in the fifth century BC, was home to
10,000 to 20,000 people.
Dr Summers and his wife Françoise have spent the past ten years
surveying the site using everything from aerial photography from a hot
air balloon to ground-penetrating radar and GPS to map the ancient
structures to an accuracy of 10cm. It is the first time such a large
archaeological site in Turkey has been mapped in such detail.
It was evidence of a great fire that convinced Mr Summers that he had
found Pteria, the western capital of the Medes, who emerged from
Ancient Persia in the sixth century BC to occupy what is now Eastern
Anatolia.
Although there are a few references to the Medes in later Greek and
Assyrian records, there is little contemporary evidence of their
existence, although the Kurds are widely thought to be their modern
descendants. According to Herodotus, the war between the Medes and the
Lydians culminated in the Battle of the Eclipse. As the battle raged, an
eclipse blacked out the sun and the combatants laid down their arms and
withdrew. The eclipse has allowed the battle to be dated to May 28,
585BC, when the city surveyed by Mr Summers would have been at its
height.
Within a generation Pteria had been sacked by Croesus and the site
abandoned and forgotten. Dr Summers has uncovered evidence that it was
looted and its fortifications toppled to prevent it being re-occupied.
The archaeological account ties in precisely with that of Herodotus.
Dr Summers said: “At the time we began studying the site there was a
view that Herodotus’ account was at best inaccurate or at worst made up.
There were even doubts about the Medean empire itself.
“Archaeologically, we know nothing about the Medes. This project puts them on the map and it supports Herodotus’ accounts.”
Dr Summers, who was born in London but has taught at the Middle East
Technical University in Ankara for 18 years, said: “The size and
complexity of the city are astonishing. It was built when the Greek city
states were colonising the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, so it fills
a gap in the history of city planning.”
This week Dr Summers became the only British recipient of the
bi-annual Rolex Awards for Enterprise. He will be presented with a
cheque for $35,000 (£22,500) at a ceremony at the Royal Insitution in
London on November 6. Dr Summers will use the money to rebuild the
city’s main gates, which stand 5m high, and to excavate more of the
palace complex. Norman Hammond, The Times archaeological
correspondent, said Dr Summers’ identification of the city was important
because it would shed light on the Medeans and allow artefacts to be
dated to within ten years.
Words of the 'legend'
“Croesus,
when he had crossed (the Halys River) with his army, came into
Cappadocian territory, to what is called Pteria. Pteria is the strongest
part of all that country and lies in a line with the city of Sinope, on
the Euxine Sea. There he encamped, destroying the farms of the Syrians
and he captured the city of the Pterians and made slaves of the people,
and he captured all the neighbouring towns; moreover, he drove the
Syrians from their homes, though they had done him no manner of harm.
Cyrus,
on his side, gathered his own army, and took on, as well, all the
peoples who lived between him and Croesus (before he set out to march at
all, he sent heralds to the Ionians and tried to make them desert
Croesus. But the Ionians would not listen to him). So when Cyrus came
and encamped over against Croesus, then and there in that land of Pteria
they fought against one another with might and main.
The battle
was fierce, and many fell on both sides. At last they broke off at the
onset of night, without either having the victory, so hard did the two
armies fight.”
I think Scythians and the Medes lived together, because a Scythian king, Madya conquered and ruled the Median Empire from c. 653-625 BCE.
The father of Phraortes was Diyako. He was a Mannaean provincial governor. The original homeland of Mannaeans was situated east and south of the Lake Urmia, near Mehabad, eastern Kurdistan.
Under HIS rule Ecbatana (Hamadan) was built. So the Mannaeans built Ecbatana. And they came from the Lake Urmia region, near Mehabad (eastern Kurdistan !!! ). The Medes annexed those Mannaeans.
The royal tomb of Phraortes ( 675- 653 BC ). The father of Cyaxares. He was Killed by the king of Assyria
It's near Hamadan, Kurdish city in eastern Kurdistan. The tomb of his son is near a southern Kurdish city Silemani. The Medes came from the east, defeated the Assyrians and settled in Kurdistan. Period !!!
Tomb of Phraortes (c. 665 - 633 BC, killed by Ashurbanipal). Hamadan, Kurdistan.
Tomb of Cyaxares (r. 625 - 585 BC, legendary King destroyed Assyria) . Silemani, Kurdistan.
Like I mentioned to you before, North and Central Kurds Iranic heritage mainly comes from Syctho-Sarmatians and less likely from Medes. The Kurds of Iran are likely descendeds from Medes. The Medes and Sycthians were very close.
Here is the tomb of Cyaxares (Havaxstra), the legendery king who overthrew the Assyrian Empire. It's near a Kurdish city Silemani in South Kurdistan (KRG = Kurdish Regional Government)! All Kurds are children of the Medes...
Even Cyaxares is buried in S. Kurdistan. How much evidence do you need?
Some
Dimili Alevis, as well as the Yezidi clans, still maintain the ancient
Iranic rite of worshipping the deity represented as a sword stuck into
the ground. Mark Sykes in 1908 mentions this practice among a few Dimili
tribes: the Bosikân, Kuriân, and apparently also the Zekiri, Musi, and
Sarmi, but he adds that at the time the last three no longer practiced
it. This rite is mentioned by Herodotus for the Iranic Scythians and
Sarmatians (kinsmen of the Kurds and other Iranic peoples) in Ukraine of
2300 years ago. (The resemblancc between the Dimili tribal name Sarmi
and the that of Sarmatians is also worthy of note.) The image of the
sword stuck in the ground or a rock is of course similar to that of the
British Excalibur and King Arthur. There is a strong possibility that
the two are related. In AD 175, Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius assigned a
legion of Sarmatians from Pannonia (modern Hungary) to serve in England
and Scotland (the Sarmatians' comrnander's name was Lucius Artorius
Castus!). According to Nickel, the basic elements of the legend may have
been introduced into Britain by these Sarmatian settlers, and the
familiar story of Excalibur may thus be akin to this Dimili Alevi
religious practice. The Dimila are the last Iranic people still
practicing the ancient rite.
Sources: The Kurds, A Concise Handbook, By Dr. Mehrdad R. Izady,
Well , after reading most of this topic I conclude the fallowing : This topic is something I call a blind Patriot vs the facts .
Remember : in History only facts and neutral Psychology counts , nothing else ! and since this rule is not being followed here , I bet that this topic is going to reach even further then 30 pages without even coming to a proper conclusion .
Could you please give more details on your thoughts?
Well , after reading most of this topic I conclude the fallowing : This topic is something I call a blind Patriot vs the facts .
Remember : in History only facts and neutral Psychology counts , nothing else ! and since this rule is not being followed here , I bet that this topic is going to reach even further then 30 pages without even coming to a proper conclusion .
Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language?
Once again, maybe or maybe not. How do you know which genetics the Medes had? Maybe they had the same genetics as the modern Kurds.
Maybe the Medes had Hg 'F', Hg 'K', Hg 'I' and Hg 'J2' ( Hg IJK -> HgIJ ) and Hg 'R' in them. And Kurds are not pure Medes, they're partly Hurrian. Maybe the Hurrians also belonged to the Hg 'F', Hg 'I', 'J2', 'K', 'G', 'R' etc. But nobody knows which Hg is Median and which Hg is Hurrian. It's impossible, because haplogroups are much older than the Medes, Hurrians and other ancient people.
Like modern people, ancient people also belonged to more haplogroups. And not just 1 haplogroup. Haplogroups doesn't mean anything. There're no races! There is just 1 race, the human race.
And the fact is that we are mostly connected with the Medes than to other people.
We do know that Persians and Medes were both located around North Iran in the early days and likely, like I mentioned before, the unions were likely made up of natives and the Iranic tribes and eventually the Iranic identiy became more dominant. Iranic tribes of Medes and Persians likely came threw the Caucasus region rather then the east. and maybe they might of incroperated some people even before arriving to Iran. Kurds of Iran are very close to Persians and Lors in mtDNA and close to North Iran and Caucasians. Kurds of Iran, are genetically closer to Iranians of Iran then to Kurds of Anatolia, because of the vast distance and lack of gene flow and also the political states and dynasty that have ruled each region. Regradless they are still Kurds.
Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language?
Once again, maybe or maybe not. How do you know which genetics the Medes had? Maybe they had the same genetics as the modern Kurds.
Maybe the Medes had Hg 'F', Hg 'K', Hg 'I' and Hg 'J2' ( Hg IJK -> HgIJ ) and Hg 'R' in them. And Kurds are not pure Medes, they're partly Hurrian. Maybe the Hurrians also belonged to the Hg 'F', Hg 'I', 'J2', 'K', 'G', 'R' etc. But nobody knows which Hg is Median and which Hg is Hurrian. It's impossible, because haplogroups are much older than the Medes, Hurrians and other ancient people.
Like modern people, ancient people also belonged to more haplogroups. And not just 1 haplogroup. Haplogroups doesn't mean anything. There're no races! There is just 1 race, the human race.
And the fact is that we are mostly connected with the Medes than to other people.
Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity, Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation. Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present. Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land. Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians.
Yes, I'm basing this on genetic grounds, I mean afterall, we're talking about ancestors here, language and culture can be adopted which happens all the time.
Anyways, I'm gonna stop arguing here, this whole thing looks like a turning circle and I think I'm done proving my point.
Heres the thing, Kurds only claim they are the descendeds of the Medo-Scythians that were in Kurdistan, which they are. I do not think genetic is the basis of ethnicity, take away language and culture and the even Kurdish religion of Ezidi and all you are left with is a empty shell, then you are no longer a Kurd. Same with Persians,Lors,Gilaks,Talysh,Ossetiens,Mazandaranis they all carry the legacy of the their ancestors and no matter how much of small genetic imprint they have they are still Iranic.
Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity, Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation. Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present. Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land. Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians.
Yes, I'm basing this on genetic grounds, I mean afterall, we're talking about ancestors here, language and culture can be adopted which happens all the time.
Anyways, I'm gonna stop arguing here, this whole thing looks like a turning circle and I think I'm done proving my point.
Then your assuming that genetics is the whole basis of ethnicity, Minor Iranic background? maybe on the genetic imprint, what about historical background, Cultural background,language? take all this into account as that is what shapes a nation. Kurds have a mixed background from various groups, many believe term Kurt comes from the Guti and they were not even natives and arrived late compared to others that were present. Because most of the Haplogroups groups Kurds carry are found around the sourounding people in does not mean that Kurds are pure natives of the land. Even on MTDNA Kurds show closer ties to Europe then to Caucasians.
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