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sooty
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Topic: Was Homer a real person? Posted: 13-Dec-2009 at 14:08 |
There is alot of debate about whether Homer, the poet who is thought to have lived c.750BC and author of the Iliad and Odyssey actually existed. Some scholars believe that the Iliad and Odyssey are the joint works of a number of poets (names unknown) and many also believe the the Iliad has quite a different style to the Odyssey.
What do people think to this question? Did Homer exist and if so was he the author of the Iliad and Odyssey?
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opuslola
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Posted: 13-Dec-2009 at 17:29 |
My dear sooty,
Whilst I might not agree, there does exist one current of thought that "Homer", which might well have been spelled as "h'Omer?", could be one of the family of the St. Omer's, of France / Belgium / Flanders, etc.! Of course this family does not seem to have been any great power until the middle-ages!
Source; A. T. Fomenko, et al!
Regards,
Ron
Edited by opuslola - 13-Dec-2009 at 17:30
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opuslola
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Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 16:33 |
Since I cannot modify the above post I will merely state that the family "Omer" also inhabited / ruled a good portion of Greece at one time during the Middle Ages!
Regards,
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Heliocles
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Posted: 26-Feb-2010 at 07:54 |
Whereas Homer was a real person is a question debated in the so called "Homeric Question": An easy starting point can be found in the respective wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_QuestionBut there is a hell lot of academic references if you want to look deeper, its a debate that has been going on for a long time. Playing with words though to make some crazy point is not to be found in such references... whats next? Connecting Homer with the k hmer rouge? A. T. Fomenko is just a pariah, a branded pseudo-scientist : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko
Edited by Heliocles - 26-Feb-2010 at 08:02
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red clay
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Posted: 26-Feb-2010 at 09:09 |
I'm not too sure that Opuslola really believes Fomenko's BS or that he just thoroughly enjoys being controversial. He's rarely correct, but that doesn't seem to matter.
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opuslola
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Posted: 26-Feb-2010 at 19:13 |
Dear redclay!
Not only do I believe that the FG, (the Fomenko Group) is correct, I would defy you to prove that they are wrong?
You might well see that your argument is baised? Whereas, my sources (The Fomenko Group) are not?
Instead, there exists a mathematical formulae, that literally forces one to see the "Fomenko Group" as correct? Or, at the least, more correct than the "accepted" chronology!
So, please tell me any source that you can present, that presents the chronology of the past, that can withstand scruntity?
That is, present any of us, with a document, that is and will always be condidered, as both profane and ruled as documented by both common sceience as well as common educational thought, as being "common" to a certain time an place?
I end this as a "pseudo-sicence" reviver!
Regards,
Edited by opuslola - 26-Feb-2010 at 19:13
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opuslola
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Posted: 27-Feb-2010 at 14:35 |
Dear redclay and Heliocles! I really don't won't to merely sound controversial! The controversy starts mostly with those who demean the works of his group! This not merely a justified or scientific dismissal or demaning, but one usually performed by someone who has not read one of his books on the subject!
Usually certain parts of the Fomenko theory is taken out of context, or they pick and choose which suppositions made by Fomenko, etal, which really stretch the boundaries of belief, and thereby dismiss the rest of the information! This is a perfect example of one "throwing the baby out with the bathwater!" Basically it would be similar to one critizing a writer of Englich literature in the 13th to 15th centuries, and demeaning the spelling, and verb usage, etc.! Thus every aspect of any of these works would merely be judged by todays standards of English spelling and grammar, etc.!
Would that be a fair method to judge all of the material?
Thus all I ask is for some "fairness?"
Please don't just label these theories as "Pseudo", just because someone else or some other group, has already done so? Like Wikipedia, etc.!
Many of you might well be very reticent about using Wiki as a source for a lot of things, but many of you will automatically take the same stance as Wikipedia when it comes to Fomenko or Velikovsky, etc.!
So, I would be happy to carry on a respectful discourse with anyone who actually reads the Fomenko material that now exists, and then wants to discuss certain parts with me!
Regards to all!
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jedc53
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Posted: 29-Apr-2010 at 21:33 |
The Homeric epic, the Iliad,attributes him with semi-immortality his
only weakness was the heal by which his mother held him when she dipped
him in the pool of immortality and invulnerability.For centuries the tales of the Trojan War were sung by the bards. As these bards made up their performance.Homer,like many novelists throughout history,would have had literary discrepancy in writing his stories.
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opuslola
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Posted: 30-Apr-2010 at 14:28 |
Jedc53! I do not remember in this thread whereby we were speaking about Achilles? You know, his "heel!", or weakness!
So, please rethink your post above, and tell us just what you really feel? (About Homer!)
Regards and welcome,
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opuslola
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Posted: 03-May-2010 at 20:11 |
Heliocles actuall bragged when he/she made this post above;
"A. T. Fomenko is just a pariah, a branded pseudo-scientist :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko"
Indeed, Fomenko is a respected "scientists" if you consider mathematics as a "science?" And, I am sure most of you so believe! But, the oft aclaimed "mathematical scientist" is critical of "History" being considered as a "science!" And, with good reason!
That is, if you have the guts to actually read his works concerning just such an idea!
That is the very reason he has named his book(s) "History; Fiction or Science!"
Regards,
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 03-May-2010 at 23:21 |
Indeed, Fomenko is a respected "scientists" if you consider mathematics as a "science?" And, I am sure most of you so believe! But, the oft aclaimed "mathematical scientist" is critical of "History" being considered as a "science!" And, with good reason! |
Mathematics is not a science, but it is used as a tool of science. Mathematics rather falls under the category of logic/deduction. Science falls under the category of observation. Two different but dependent approaches to discovering the truth. Fomenko, is therefore not a scientist. He is a mathematician, nothing more, nothing less. In his writings, he blasts real "science" as unreliable in dating the past (the reality being is that the science is quite accurate in dating the past), while there is no shred of proof for his conspiracy theories of some monks making an entire world forget its history. Those who have ventured to look into his proofs find that the data he uses is quite selective to the point of ignoring the majority of the material which does not fit his theory, and even when he does provide some data which seemingly supports his theories, those who have looked at it find that it is manipulated (forced) to fit a preconceived idea (juxtaposing and merging historical persons, etc). Since his theory only really involves the assumed manipulation of medievel manuscripts, his theory totally falls apart when faced with a huge corpus of ancient inscriptional evidence and the observations of time on those ancient documents.....oh, and let's not forget the "science" too......
As far as I'm concerned, he is like Sitchin who claims to know how read Sumerian, but who is not a Sumerologist, and no true Sumerologist recognizes him as an authority.
This is all I will say on the subject. It is already off-topic. If there is rebuttal, I will not respond. 'Nuff sed.
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 03:45 |
I think Jedc53 has been reading too many bedtime stories to his little baby son. So much so that he's now even got himself mixed up between Homer's heel and Achilles's heel.
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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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opuslola
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 12:47 |
Sharrukin! Whether or not you respond or not, I will offer a rebuttal to your words above, concerning Mathematics as a Science!;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics#Mathematics_as_science
It seems you do not know it all!
In your words I close;
"This is all I will say on the subject. It is already off-topic. If there is rebuttal, I will not respond. 'Nuff sed."
My regards,
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eaglecap
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 14:52 |
Originally posted by sooty
There is alot of debate about whether Homer, the poet who is thought to have lived c.750BC and author of the Iliad and Odyssey actually existed. Some scholars believe that the Iliad and Odyssey are the joint works of a number of poets (names unknown) and many also believe the the Iliad has quite a different style to the Odyssey.
What do people think to this question? Did Homer exist and if so was he the author of the Iliad and Odyssey? |
That is a good question and one which nobody can fully answer. One historian believes Homer was a woman and I heard, on the Modern scholar Series, that the word Homer could have been a Mykanaen word for bard or story teller. I tend to believe he was a man, but I am very open to all theories. Too bad we did not have a time machine to see for ourselves!! I love listening to the Iliad on CD.
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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opuslola
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 15:36 |
Ec, wrote; "One historian believes Homer was a woman and I heard, on the Modern scholar Series, that the word Homer could have been a Mykanaen word for bard or story teller."
It seems that that conclusion was tough, since he was known as "the blind bard!"
If you please I would still tend to identify him as a member of the St. Omer family!
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATIN%20LORDSHIPS%20IN%20GREECE.htm
Regards,
Edited by opuslola - 04-May-2010 at 15:49
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eaglecap
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 16:11 |
Originally posted by opuslola
Ec, wrote; "One historian believes Homer was a woman and I heard, on the Modern scholar Series, that the word Homer could have been a Mykanaen word for bard or story teller."
It seems that that conclusion was tough, since he was known as "the blind bard!"
If you please I would still tend to identify him as a member of the St. Omer family!
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATIN%20LORDSHIPS%20IN%20GREECE.htm
Regards, |
final proof of his existence- a photo
taringa.net
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 23:11 |
opus, I have to respond to your rebuttal:
Sharrukin! Whether or not you respond or not, I will offer a rebuttal to your words above, concerning Mathematics as a Science!;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics#Mathematics_as_science |
Dude, did you even read the article? Whle it quotes individuals who consider mathematics as a science, it mainly explores the similarities between mathematics and science as well as the differences. As the article states, "If one considers science to be strictly about the physical world, then mathematics, or at least pure mathematics, is not a science." and "Many mathematicians feel that to call their area a science is to downplay the importance of its aesthetic side, and its history in the traditional seven liberal arts;".
In the end, a "mathematician" who ignores "science" is no scientist
It seems you do not know it all! |
A blatant strawman. I never claimed that I did. By the way, the same can be said of Wikipedia.
'Nuff sed.
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 03:10 |
Originally posted by eaglecap
I tend to believe he was a man, but I am very open to all theories. Too bad we did not have a time machine to see for ourselves!! I love listening to the Iliad on CD. |
Well we have guys around who could communicate with the dead, don't we? Maybe we could enlist their help on this.
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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 03:28 |
Originally posted by opuslola
Whilst I might not agree, there does exist one current of thought that "Homer", which might well have been spelled as "h'Omer?", could be one of the family of the St. Omer's, of France / Belgium / Flanders, etc.! Of course this family does not seem to have been any great power until the middle-ages!
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Maybe 'Homer' was just linked to the French 'Homme' (i.e. Man). No?
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opuslola
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 17:34 |
Yes, in a certain regard he might just well be "the man!" But, we would have to throw away a few thousand years for that to be so!
But, I am not against such a thing!
Regards,
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