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70 anniversary of Soviet invasion of Poland

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 70 anniversary of Soviet invasion of Poland
    Posted: 17-Sep-2009 at 09:38
This is 70 anniversary of Soviet Invasion of Poland (17 September, 1939) and start of NKVD (predecessor of  KGB) genocide of Poles. This invasion, also called "the stab in the back" sealed the fate of Poland in the II WW.
Any comments?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2009 at 15:36
Though the NKVD commited many atrocities in Poland, the term "genocide" is too strong. The goal of the NKVD was to kill or imprison all real and imagined socio-political opponents of the USSR. This led to a large number of deaths. No attempt, however, was made to kill the Poles as an entire ethnic group. 
 
That aside, Poland offered heroic resistance in WWII to both the NAZIS and the Bolshevicks.  Not only did Poland continue to field entire divisions after Poland fell, the Polish Home Army was probably the msot efficient resistance movement in the war. After WWII ended, armed Polish resistance to the Bolshevicks continued for several years.


Edited by Cryptic - 17-Sep-2009 at 15:41
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2009 at 14:44
Maybe it is too strong word and I think that if you look at literal meaning of the word genocide, you are right. However Soviets were well determined to exterminate all intellectuals, leaders and state functionaries. If one exterminates the top of society, what is left are docile masses of followers without too  much of identity left. It is more of a cultural and identity extermination. Good place to see its results is in Eastern Ukraine or Russia itself. Eastern Ukrainians feel more Russian than Russians themselves. Russians are still enamored of strong man telling them what to do. This is  cultural and identity obliteration which maybe worse than genocide. It is true that it did not work in Poland, Hungary or Soviet Baltic Republics.

To put things in perspective, as a result of this invasion 1.2 million Poles ended in various NKVD facilities. This includes women and children. Very few came back. 25,000 of army officers and border guards were simply murdered.


Edited by cavalry4ever - 18-Sep-2009 at 15:10
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2009 at 10:59
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

 If one exterminates the top of society, what is left are docile masses of followers without too  much of identity left. It is more of a cultural and identity extermination.
Very good point. Perhaps "genoicide" should be broadened to include attempts at the total destruction of a culture or national identity that are accompanied by a large number of actual deaths.
 
Using this definition, the Stalinist actions against Poland were a genocide as were the Maoist actions against Chinese culture (accompanied by the actual deaths of millions of Chinese) during the cultural revolution.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Sep-2009 at 11:00
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  Quote Woland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2009 at 13:30
You see. The most important thing, connected with Russians is the Katyn case. They don't fell sorry for 25 thousands murdered officers and that's the big hurt for Polish. Even current Russian goverment don't want resolve this problem and appology for that. Sufferer's famylies fight in European Court of Human Rights in Strasburg. Recently the Court demanded on Russia to explain what for they killed so many Polish officers and what more they know about that tragedy. I hope it will show the whole truth about that. What do you thing about Katyn at all?


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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2009 at 17:30
There is another interesting angle in Russian history. Imagine what would happen if Germans elected someone as Chancellor with a past connection to Gestapo.
Putin, former high functionary of KGB - successor agency to NKVD, was elected. Russians themselves have to come to terms with genocide under the Soviet regime and start convicting people that took part in it.
Good model for assuming the responsibility for past is German model.
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  Quote Woland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2009 at 00:59
I guess that you mean the Trial in Norymberg. Yes, that was necessary for peace in our souls, nevermind if it was just or not, i think those people had it coming.
Nevertheless, i don't remember Russians convicting people who took part in those NKVD and KGB and so on. You said they "have to", but they didn't and they won't i think, unless some higher powerful court will force Russian to redo investigations.
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2009 at 07:48
When I think of Germany assuming responsibility, I was not thinking about Nuremberg. That process was imposed from outside. I was thinking about Germans themselves taking ownership of their past. 
This still needs to happen in Russia.
Russian society right now looks very much like one during Brezhnew era of stagnation. If one removes oil revenue, there is not much left, except rusty arsenal and corrupt political and judicial systems. Once West cuts its energy needs, Russia will become pretty irrelevant and economic basket case. This will force the society to grow up past Soviet nostalgia. The initial process of looking critically at its past may be restarted.
The movie worth seeing is Wajda's Katyn.  


Edited by cavalry4ever - 05-Dec-2009 at 07:49
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  Quote Woland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2009 at 12:50
Yes, i saw it! Pretty nice, but i thought it will say more about Russians and people who made decision to kill Polish officers. The film told about what i didn't expect, unfortunately. I like Wajda, ha makes very good films, like "Pianist"(recommend!:D), but that one wasn't so ingenious as Wajda could make it, in my opinion.
But let's back to Russians. I saw the ceremony of 70th anniversary of the outbreak of second ww. I remember German chancellor's(Angela Merkel) words. She was really ashamed for her own country, for her own history and that was really moving. And i saw when Putin was saying his speech- he was trying to fudge Katyn case, but it was observable. Everybody, especialy journalist, listen each his word, because he should say something important, but he of course didn't. We see his politics. He might be very dangerous in the nearest future. What do you think about that? Will he try to start the third world war?

Sorry, "Pianist" is Polanski- but those two guys are one of the bests Polish directors.


Edited by Woland - 06-Dec-2009 at 02:06
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2009 at 10:23
Putin is a very shrewd, ruthless and dangerous politician. He is master at manipulating Russians. In the case his economy tanks he will look outside of Russia to lay blame. He is already using stalinist approaches to rouse ignorant masses and youth in particular.
What is interesting that there maybe first signs of a power struggle between him and Medvedev. 
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2009 at 11:05
First battle of the Soviet invasion of Poland was the battle for the line of Border Defense Corps (Korpus Ochrony Pogranicza - KOP) posts along the entire Polish-Soviet border. In total there were around 190 KOP guard houses along the entire 1500 km long Polish-Soviet border. Each of these guard houses was defended by between 11 and 16 KOP soldiers (so in total there were around 2500 KOP soldiers in all 190 guard houses). Here is such a guard house:
 
 
These 2500 KOP soldiers - with almost complete lack of heavy weapons - were to oppose the first strike of the entire 1st wave of Soviet forces directed against Poland - in total 617,588 Red Army soldiers, at least 4959 artillery guns and mortars, at least 4733 tanks and 3298 combat aircraft. Additionally 16,500 Soviet border defense soliders (so called WOP NKWD and border guard):
 
 
All 190 KOP guard houses along the border were attacked almost simultaneously - exactly at 3 o'clock in the morning of the Polish time (and 5 o'clock in the morning of the Moscow time). Most of KOP posts were completely surprised by the Soviet attack and were completely unprepared for defense. Many of KOP soldiers were killed by Soviet bullets and bombs before they managed to wake up, inside their bads. Those who managed to notice the Soviet attack on time, tried to put up resistance but in the face of huge Soviet superiority in numbers and firepower efficient resistance was impossible. After several hours of fierce combats along the border everything was over.
 
Only along the frontline of Belarusian Front KOP posts along the border after the first few hours of war were either killed, captured or forced to retreat. KOP posts facing the Belarusian Front lost 153 killed (8 officers, 8 NCOs and 137 soldiers), 49 wounded and 459 captured (7 officers, 27 NCOs and 425 soldiers - these numbers also include all 49 wounded). Losses of Belarusian Front in this first battle lasting for the first few hours were surprisingly heavy considering their huge superiority - Red Army lost 29 KIA and 111 wounded (in total 140 soldiers). Border guard lost 30 KIA or WIA.
 
Several kilometres behind the KOP posts along the border, there were reserves of KOP - in total around 15,000 facing both Soviet fronts (Ukrainian and Belarusian). Behind KOP there were Polish regular military forces, ad hoc formed units and frontline forces - but all of them were either facing the German army in fierce combats or were preparing to face the German army from the West and building new defensive lines directed towards the West.
 
Video about KOP:
 


Edited by Domen - 14-Dec-2009 at 11:06
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2009 at 19:04
If I may say so? Just why would this thread consume so much band-width? It is, to me at least, just another "speed bump" in our history! IE, sorry, goodby, hope it doesn't happen again, etc.!

Edited by opuslola - 14-Dec-2009 at 19:06
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2009 at 06:04
Originally posted by opuslola

If I may say so? Just why would this thread consume so much band-width? It is, to me at least, just another "speed bump" in our history! IE, sorry, goodby, hope it doesn't happen again, etc.!
s
Because it is an important and serious historical event which shaped modern history.
No one forces you to follow this thread.
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2009 at 02:46
An article of Russian press about combats in Tarnopol:
 
22 September 1939 - "Izwiestia" reports:
 
"The destruction of bands of officers in Tarnopol:
 
Tanks started an assault so unexpectedly, that we managed to capture the south-eastern part of the city in a flash. During combats for Tarnopol Polish officers fired at as from granaries, windows, they were throwing grenades towards our tanks. Crews of our tanks encountered tough resistance of the enemy, who entrenched himself along the narrow streets. Poles even managed to encircle an armoured unit, cutting it off from its brigade. As a response the encircled armoured unit occupied positions along the main street and fired at enemy officers who were bombarding tanks from the roofs with a hail of bullets and grenades."
 
An article of Russian press about the battle of Grodno (published on 25.09.1939):

25 September 1939, "Pravda" reports:

"Combat against bands of officers in Grodno

X Grouping of the Red Army encounters heavy resistance of the enemy. Poles try they darndest to hold Grodno at any cost. They set the bridge on the Niemen connecting the two parts of the city on fire and they opened fire to our units from all possible ambushes, from windows and from attics.

Despite all of that our commander, comrade Petrov, ordered to capture the city. [...] Combat was extremely hard: there were 3,000 Polish officers and gendarmes in the city. Bands of officers barricaded themselves in the fort, in the cathedral and in the barracks. Enemies had got large number of MGs and in some houses they had got even up to 13 grenade launchers. Enemy was avoiding face-to-face combat. Bands of officers had chosen the rotten way of carrying out combat from ambushes. They put up the most fierce resistance in the cemetery and in the Poniemun property.

During the night our units broke through up to the cathedral, other units up to the barracks, where they encountered heavy resistance. At first we failed to capture some resistance nests. Before capturing them, resistance nests in the cathedral must have been captured, after that combined forces of infantry and tanks could strike them together.

Since the evening on 20 September until the noon of the next day unit of howitzers and our artillery were fireing at the cathedral, barracks, water plants and camp of officers. Our artillery crews were especially fiercely fireing at the cathedral and at the castle. During street combats our officers were the chosen target of the enemy. Many outstanding commanders lost their lives during this battle. Especially commanders of tanks and their crews distinguished themselves during the battle of Grodno.

When our first and second battalions were attacking towards the city centre the enemy formed a storm group composed of officer bands in the forest at the right bank of the Niemen river and ordered it to attack our units. However, our right wing and our rears were so well protected by machine gun teams, that the enemy was forced to withdraw with considerable casualties.

The battle of Grodno once again revealed the high combat efficiency of our Red Army soldiers. Especially productive despite difficult conditions was the reconnaissance service of Major K. Wiedenskog from the Belarusian Front."
 
-------------------------------------------------
 
Komdiv Andriej Jeriomienko (commander of 6th Cavalry Corps) about the battle of Grodno in 1939:

"Poles put up strong but completely purposeless resistance (...) For the first time I had an occasion to participate in a tank attack and to get to know about their combat value, to understand the sense of some tactical operations during an attack on big open spaces and in the developed area. This experience rather didn't belong to the category of pleasant experiences: during combats at the outskirts of Grodno the entire crew of [my] tank, which served as a mobile command post, were WIA, and all 3 tanks, from which I was in turn directing combats, were knocked out."

Source: Vladimir Beshanov, "Krasnyj Blickrig", page 91


Edited by Domen - 20-Dec-2009 at 03:09
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2009 at 02:57
About capturing the city of Lwow by the Red Army (on 22.09.1939):
 
Wojciech Wlodarkiewicz, "Lwow 1939" writes (pp 185 - 186):

"On 21.09.1939, despite the fact that German units had already started withdrawal from their positions near Lemberg, delayed by the necessity of evacuation of wounded, a German messenger arrived at Grojecka street and once again proposed the capitulation of the city. In recognition of stubborn defense of the city, German side offered to salute the defenders and to allow Polish officers to retain their side arms. The German messenger declared, that 'the capitulation of the Polish crew to the Germans means remaining in Europe, while the capitulation to the Red Army would mean passing through to Asia forever'. It seems that it was a question of prestige for the Germans to capture the city - which had been vainly besieged by their forces since 12.09.1939 - at least for a while."

"On 21.09.1939 in the early morning Soviet side proposed the Poles to resume negotiations. Polish side sent a delegation with lt. col. Ryzinski and interpreter maj. Jan Jawicz to Winniki. During negotiations Soviet side insisted on allowing the Red Army by the Polish side to enter the city, but Polish delegation still didn't have authorisation to take such a decision. In this situation a meeting with general Langner was agreed at 2:00 PM behind the Lyczakowska tollgate. In the afternoon general Langner received information that the Red Army forces had attacked the city and defenders retreated from the most sticking out positions. In this situation gen. Januszajtis on behalf of the Command of Corps District No VI ordered the commander of the Group of Lwow Defense gen. Sikorski to open fire to the Soviet forces after triple warning. When the defenders opened fire, Russian units stopped the attack and retreated.

At 2:00 PM gen. Langner and lt. col. Ryzinski went to the Lyczakowska tollgate but the Soviet general didn't come to the agreed meeting. It was established, that the renewed meeting is going to take place in the same place after 3 hours. In the agreed time limit negotiations of both delegations took place and preliminary conditions of surrendering the city were established. During the night both sides were to specify these conditions in writing, in order to meet again at 8:00 AM of the Moscow's time on the next day, to finally discuss and accept them. The Soviet side guaranteed retaining the current city authorities, safety of live for all people inside the city, retaining the private property and the opportunity of emigration to neutral countries for everybody who wants it. During the negotiations gen. Langner repeatedly underlined that he prefers to hand over the city to the Soviet rather than to the 'eternal enemy of all Slavic people' - Germans."
 
Vladimir Beshanov, "Krasnyj Blickrig", fragments from pages 111 - 115:
 
"Thanks to energy and resourcefulness of the commander of Corps District VI gen. Wladyslaw Langner and the city's president Stanislaw Ostrowski, in the face of massive reinforcing of military forces by the Lwowian youth and thanks to arriving reserves, forces of the defenders of Lwow numbered 24 infantry battalions, 3 cavalry squadrons, company of sappers and many other units. Armament consisted of 78 field guns and 16 AA guns. There was shortage of AT guns, but forces defending the city had got 6,000 machine guns. On 18 - 19 September two armoured trains "Smialy" and "Bartosz Glowacki" as well as three transports with ammunition and weapons arrived in Lwow. In magazines Poles gathered 14 units of fire for infantry weapons and artillery each, food supplies sufficient for almost 3 months, fuel supplies - for 6 months. All conditions necessary for long-lasting defence were created. Despite the fact that civilian inhabitants were suffering from Luftwaffe bombings and each day hundreds of them were being killed, the German Command was vainly waiting for the capitulation of Lwow."

[...]

"During the night from 20th to 21st of September German forces started their retreat. Their positions were taken over by Russian units, preparing to the assault which was to begin at 9 o'clock in the morning. 38th and 10th Tank Brigades as well as the mixed unit of 97th and 96th Rifle Division were attached to the 1st Cavalry Corps. Plan of the assault was simple: 14th Cavalry Division was to attack the city from the north and from the north-east, mixed unit of 17th Rifle Corps and 38th Tank Brigade - from the east, 5th Cavalry Division together with 10th Tank Brigade - from the south and south-west. It should be noticed that even in official combat order Polish garrison of Lwow was called a "fascist organization". Soviet forces occupied assigned positions but in the morning Polish military command announced its readiness to start negotiations. General Langner softened. Especially that the "general directive" of the Polish High Command ordered Polish units not to fight against the Soviets. However, gen. Langner didn't take up any efforts to execute the 2nd point of this directive - breaking through to Hungary - despite the fact that the withdrawal of German forces created ideal opportunity for such action.

[...]

At 14:00 Polish units started to lay their weapons and one hour later dismounted units of the 2nd Cavalry Corps together with tanks of three armoured brigades (24., 38. and 10.) entered the city. For the European citizens of Lwow Red Army, in spite of huge mass of armoured technology, looked like a horde of scruffs:

"Low training of soldiers jumps out: marching units distinguish themselves with low discipline, they are unkempt and dirty. It is visible, that soldiers are badly fed, their weapons are neglected, uniforms are of different colours, even Polish uniforms can be seen, shoes are often tied with string in order to not fall to pieces; many are full of holes. General impression - a band, not an army."

Polish garrison fulfiled the conditions of surrendering, only in several places Polish soldiers who didn't want to surrender opened fire from behind the barricades, but their resistance was quickly put down. Until the evening on 23 September calmness reigned over the city and main Soviet forces entered the suburbs."

[...]

"Polish patriots in London and Paris later accused general Langner for small mindedness and lack of wider thinking:

"(...) Lwow, in our opinion, could have remained in Polish hands two or three weeks more, even up to 10.10.1939. It would have been the longest defence of the last boundary of Polish soil. Moral-propaganda and moral significance of such a defense - in front of the eyes of entire world, attention of which would have been then directed towards Poland - just cannot be overestimated (...) In general the role of gen. Langner in period after 17.09.1939 must be rated completely negatively.""


Edited by Domen - 20-Dec-2009 at 03:00
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2009 at 14:00
This date is significant for another reason:
Germans outran their supply lines when they reached Vistula river (50% of Polish territory). Some of Polish fortified positions were resisting pretty well. Hitler's orders to his army were to stop advancing and consolidate its positions.  This is not as formidable German army as in 1941. 
If Soviets did not attack Poland and considering German advance was slowing down, Poland could resist much longer. This would put probably give some confidence to France and England to get involved. 


Edited by cavalry4ever - 20-Dec-2009 at 14:01
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2011 at 20:21
My grandparents were there when the Russians invaded. Grandma hid in her family home while the Ukrainian traitors went around butchering Poles with axes. Grandad was a soldier tasked with building sandbag defences which, ultimately, were bypassed by Ivan. Both of them, together with their families, ended up in Siberia where grandma's mother died and grandad's father disappeared. A quick googling shows a prisoner sharing my great-grandfather's name was released in 1942 and headed to Iran to join the British army but died of illness brought on by the harsh conditions

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