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Statue of Liberty, the Sun-god Mithra?

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Statue of Liberty, the Sun-god Mithra?
    Posted: 02-Sep-2009 at 06:18
This pic shows an ancient Roman relief of Mithra with seven sun rays and the famous statue of liberty in New York:
 
 
As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty it seems there was really a relation between the statue of liberty and a Roman deity, but that is Mithras or Libertas, ancient Rome's goddess of freedom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas Question
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2009 at 09:00
It represents a deity but not Mithra:


The classical appearance (Roman stola, sandals, facial expression) derives from Libertas, ancient Rome's goddess of freedom from slavery, oppression, and tyranny. Her raised right foot is on the move. This symbol of Liberty and Freedom is not standing still or at attention in the harbor, it is moving forward, as her left foot tramples broken shackles at her feet, in symbolism of the United States' wish to be free from oppression and tyranny. Since the 1940s, it has been claimed that the seven spikes or diadem atop of the crown epitomize the Seven Seas and seven continents. Her torch signifies enlightenment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty

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  Quote Hapitomis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2009 at 12:04
that is cool, an example of synchronism in the universe? lol
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2009 at 12:57
It is interesting how similar the pictures are. Even the seven spikes on top of the head match, but I don't see anything in the wikipedia article and don't think statue of liberty is modeled after Mithra mainly because of the taboo factor associated with Mithra based connection with Christianity. Just look at how vandelized any article on wikipedia relating to Mithra is, but then again things may have been different when statue of liberty was built
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2009 at 16:09
wait isn't mithra an ancient iranian/indian god? or is this a different roman mithra???
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2009 at 19:28
I tought the Statue of Liberty was inspired in the Rhodes colossus
 


Edited by Pachacutec - 06-Sep-2009 at 19:28
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2009 at 20:51

Roman Mithra is derived from Iranian Mithra. In the original Iranian religion it was not ‘a god’ but a spiritual being

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  Quote Obijon13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2009 at 11:18

That relief of Mithra  looks like the statue of liberty not because the statue of liberty is Mithra, but because the statue of liberty is designed to look Roman. The rays on the statue of liberty are a crown on Mithra the rays are sun  

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2009 at 07:55
With respect, I feel that ya'll have missed the point entirely. That is the question should be "Why did the Statue of Liberty wear a seven rayed crown and not a Liberty Cap or Phyrigian Cap, which was really a symbol of liberty both in the US and France?"

It was mentioned above that the Statue of Liberty represents "..a crown on Mithra the rays are (the) sun." Whilst this may be true for the representations from the lands of Persia, it cannot be true of representations found to the West of Persia, etc.

As an example, I offer this site; http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html for your persual!

Also examine this site;
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Mithraism/id/1896091 where you can read these words;
"Mithraism is generally considered to be of Persian origins, specifically an outgrowth of Zoroastrian culture, though not of Zoroaster's teachings. For Zoroaster was a monotheist, for whom Ahuramazda was the One god. Darius the Great was equally stringent in the official monotheism of his reign: no god but Ahuramazda is ever mentioned in any of the numerous inscriptions that survive of his reign (521–485 BC).

However, the official cult is rarely the sole religion in an area. The following inscription from Susa of Artaxerxes II Mnemon (404–358 BC) demonstrates that not all the Achaemenid kings were as purely Zoroastrian as Darius the Great:

'Artaxerxes the Great King, [...] says: [...] By the favor of Ahuramazda, Anahita, and Mithra, this palace I built. May Ahuramazda, Anahita, and Mithra protect me from all evil, and that which I have built may they not shatter nor harm.'

It is tempting to identify the Roman Mithras with the Persian Mithra, except that there is no known Persian legend or text about Mithra killing a bull or being associated with other animals. On the other hand, there is a story of Ahriman, the evil god in popular developments of Zoroastrianism, killing a bull. It is also hard to explain how the Sun-god Mithra would come to be worshipped in the windowless, cave-like mithraeum."

So, there seems to exist a lot of problems with the identification of Mithra and its origin in Persia, etc.

Moreover, it behooves us to consider just what any sculpture from France would consider as a symbol of liberty in the period of 1860-1880 CE? IE, just what examples from the past did the designer have to choose from?

Some have assumed that it was a representation of the Roman goddess "Libertus?"

Please see; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas for more information including the mention of the Phrygian Cap.

At; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty you can find that Lady Liberty is supposedly wearing a "radiant crown", and, also at Wikipeida; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_(headgear) where it is described thus;
"The corona radiata, the 'radiant crown' known best on the Statue of Liberty, and perhaps worn by the Helios that was the Colossus of Rhodes, was worn by Roman emperors as part of the cult of Sol Invictus prior to the Roman Empire's conversion to Christianity. It was referred to as 'the chaplet studded with sunbeams' by Lucian, about 180 AD (in Alexander the false prophet)."

So, we find out that such a crown (radiant) is "known best" from the statue itself! It is only surmised that it reportedly emulated the statue at Rhodes, which was already destroyed.

In reality, if the sculptor had been honest the statue would have been displayed wearing the more famous "Phrygian Cap" or "Liberty Cap."

Iti is even considered that the "Pileus has often been confused with the Phrygian Cap,especially since both were reportedly made of "felt!"

Information concerning this "Pileus cap" can be found at;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pileus_(hat)

Information concerning the more justified "Phrygian or Liberty Cap", and be found here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap



But, I shall let Wikipeida explain why the seven pointed crown might have been used rather than the Liberty Cap or Phrygian Cap.

"The classical appearance (Roman stola, sandals, facial expression) derives from Libertas, ancient Rome's goddess of freedom from slavery, oppression, and tyranny. Her raised right foot is on the move. This symbol of Liberty and Freedom is not standing still or at attention in the harbor, it is moving forward, as her left foot tramples broken shackles at her feet, in symbolism of the United States' wish to be free from oppression and tyranny.[30] Since the 1940s, it has been claimed that the seven spikes or diadem atop of the crown epitomize the Seven Seas and seven continents.[31] Her torch signifies enlightenment. The Keystone in her hand represents knowledge and shows the date of the United States Declaration of Independence, in roman numerals, July IV, MDCCLXXVI. The general appearance of the statue’s head approximates the Greek Sun-god Apollo or the Roman Sun-god Helios as preserved on an ancient marble tablet (today in the Archaeological Museum of Corinth, Corinth, Greece) - Apollo was represented as a solar deity, dressed in a similar robe and having on its head a "radiate crown" with the seven spiked rays of the Helios-Apollo's sun rays, like the Statue's nimbus or halo. The ancient Colossus of Rhodes, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, was a statue of Helios with a radiate crown. The Colossus is referred to in the 1883 sonnet The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus. Lazarus' poem was later engraved on a bronze plaque and mounted inside the Statue of Liberty in 1903.

The statue, also known affectionately as "Miss Liberty" (and "Lady Liberty") "the Lady", has become a symbol of freedom and liberty. Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi also created another "Lady Liberty" which is displayed in Paris, France.

Iconographic precedents"

As mentioned above, the colossus of Rhodes could have been one source of inspiration for the radiant crown.

"In the modern era, radiant-crown-wearing allegorical statues were scuplted by Italian artists, notably Canova's' allegory of Faith on the tomb of pope Clement XIII[32], and Camillo Pacetti's allegory of New Testament above the entrance of Milan Cathedral[33].

They became increasingly common in the second half of the 19th century in France and Élias Robert's France crowning Art and Industry (1855), among others, could have provided inspiration for the Statue of Liberty [34]. The Great Seal of the French Second Republic (1848-1852) displays an allegory of Liberty represented sitting and wearing a seven ray radiant crown[35] [36].

Earlier modern versions of statues of Liberty include the one erected atop a temple of Concordia in Lyon for the Federation festival of May 30,1790[37] and the plaster figure wearing a red phrygian cap and carrying a spear in her right hand, replacing Louis XV's equestrial statue on the place de la Révolution - formerly place Louis XV, now place de la Concorde - in Paris from August 1793 to 1800 next to the guillotine[38], inspiring Madame Roland's famous remark: Oh Liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name![39].

The decision to depict Liberty wearing a radiant crown rather than the traditional attribute of liberty, the phrygian cap, is a negative one, avoiding what was then perceived as the symbol of radical revolutionary movements[40]. Similarly, Thomas Crawford had to renounce to his project to dress the Capitol's Statue of Freedom with a phrygian cap because of the concern that it might be seen as an abolitionist symbol."

So, it appears that the "radiant crown" was basically used for "political reasons", and nothing more.
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote thomas bleser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2010 at 08:20
I was browsing through Franz Cumont's The Mysteries of Mithra (1902 republished by Dover 1956) and was immediately struck by the many similarities in represenations of Mithra and the Statue of Liberty.  Googling "Mithra" this morning I noted some other interesting tie-ins with the constellations Scorpio and Taurus.  The latter might explain why the bull is an important symbol.  I suspect that since this cult originated in what is now Iran, the Taurus Mountains might also have something to do with these symbols.

Cuomont has several illustrations of Mithra holding a torch in two positions--one position aloft as with the Statue of Liberty, and the other position pointing downward. I would suggest that at festivals celebrating the spring equinox or winter solstice the former replaced the latter in the Mithraeum to symbolize the beginning of earlier sunrises and later sunsets; and vice versa in the fall when the days started getting shorter again with later sunrises and sunsets lower on the horizon.  The pair of such Mithra statues (dadophori)  from the Museum of Palermo and shown in Fig. 29 on page 129 of Cuomont's book also clearly shows Mithra in a Phrygian cap.

It's hard to explain why the "Phrygian" cap came to be associated with freedom in the ancient world and in the French and American revolutions of the late 1700's.  Phrygia was located in a part of what is now Turkey that was next to what was referred to as Galacia in St. Paul's time, when the Mithra cult was at its zenith.  Whatever freedom and independence Phrygians may have ever had was long gone by then.  The Sarmatians further north and the Parthians further west would have been much more likely candidates for this stereotype, especially the Parthians since they stood in the way of a common frontier between Rome in the west and Han China in the east, having decisively beaten a Roman legion primarily as the result of superior cavalry tactics.

If there is any esoteric connection between artistic representations of Mithra 2000 years ago and of Liberty 200 years ago I suspect it is in the fact that in neither case was much care or attention given to artistic merit when producing sculpture.  As far as I'm concerned the Statue of Liberty is a great tourist attraction but as a charming bit of kitsch it doesn't strike me as something to rival the breathtaking sculpture produced in, say, the golden age of Athens.  Lets just hope that future generations don't fit her right arm with moveable joints allowing them to  to raise and lower her torch or wave it around to signal one thing or another (as some ancient temple bronzes were made to do to mystify and amaze--if not simply to amuse--their devotees).
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2010 at 11:12
Welcome, Thomas Bleser!

A well though out post! Thanks!

It is an interesting concept, that is Mithra a man somewhat like Jesus, and the following from my post above; "For Zoroaster was a monotheist, for whom Ahuramazda was the One god. Darius the Great was equally stringent in the official monotheism of his reign: no god but Ahuramazda is ever mentioned in any of the numerous inscriptions that survive of his reign (521–485 BC)."

So, the ONE divinity, is common to all religions of the Persian Empire West, it seems!

You mentioned that Phrygia which could easliy be spelled Frigia, which of course gives the name a somewhat different connotation, and was located near to "Galicia", as you typed. But are you correct here? It seems the Ancient and late Roman world was literally sprinkled with similar names and places!

For instance "Galicia" as you wrote can describe a place in Modern Spain / Iberia, thus;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)

Or it could have been found in Eastern Europe, thus;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

The word (of course) that you meant to write was Galatia, thus;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

But, of course, there reportedly existed a somewhat mysterious city, located across the Golden Horn, from Constantinople. It was interestingly enough called Galata (Pera), thus;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galata

Of which we are told has no relationship at all to Galatia or Gaul(s), etc.![

And, that of course, leaves us with the two or three Gauls of Western Europe!

So, as I said, a good topic for conversation!

Regards,


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  Quote thomas bleser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2010 at 18:09
Thanks for your interesting reply to my comments on the Mithra cult.  I must apologize for a misspelled word.  I should have written "Galatia" rather than "Galicia." You are correct I think when looking at alternate spellings for a common culture as I'm sure that all spellings refer to ethnic Celts  from what is now France who migrated in many directions I suspect, some going to the Iberian Peninsula, others to Russia and still others to what is now Turkey.  However, Phrygia and Galatia (spelled with an "at"and not an "ic") were both provinces of the Roman Empire in what is now Turkey.  If you google "Galatia" as I did just now you'll see many maps and a long Wikipedia article testifying to this.


It was interesting for me to note that on maps showing actual provincial boundaries, Phrygia at the time the Mithraism was as widespread as Christianity included not only all the ancient Greek City States that were famous in 500 B.C. on the east coast of the Aegean Sea, but also extended far inland as well.

As a Christian, I am of course extremely interested in the history of that religion, especially in trying to figure out just how much of it really represents a lot of other religious beliefs and practises that were popular 2000 years ago.  I really think that the 21st century will see radical changes in how we view these things because in my opinion much of what the naive "scientific" world view of the 20th century saw as "superstition" is going to be recognized as nothing of the sort, and that we are going to realize, instead, that extraterrestrials who are just as much mortal flesh and blood as you and I are have played a much more central role at every stage in the development of our culture (not to mention possible terraformation of the earth itself) than we could have heretofore imagined.  Encounters and even intermarriage with these ETs will be seen to lie at the heart of most religions, most myths and legends, and most stories about the origins of culture (technology, art, language, mathematics, philosophy, and so on).  I fail to see why we have to believe that the human race itself is even native to this planet.  Perhaps we have been migrating outward from one galaxy to the next for a long, long time.  Who's to say?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2010 at 18:27
There is no need to apologize! The reason,or at least one of the reasons, I wrote the response I did, is because of the often mistaken identificiation of one with another!

As well as some supposed relationships!

I must retire now, but perhaps we can continue this conversation at a later time?


Regards,
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  Quote thomas bleser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 04:25
I tend to look for possible connections based on the sound of a word. I have no idea where "Phrygia" came from but as a Roman province it was located in what is still called "Asia.." Ancient Greeks, the ones who traced their origins to the  Minoans and Micenaeans, (before the various overland invasions from the north, the last being Dorian) called themselves AchaeansTo me "achaean" sounds a lot  like "asian" and "aegean."  So I tend to wonder if the earliest civilized people to inhabit what is now Greece (or at least the Athenian part of it) didn't identify themselves as "Asians" because, in their preliterate oral traditions, they claimed to have migrated by land and sea from what is now the west coast of Turkey.  Much later, in Roman times,  this area was referred to as "Phrygia."  After the decline of Greece, the last attempt to stave off Roman colonization was made by the Achaean League, and in Paul's epistles to that part of the world (i.e. to Galatians, Thessalonians, Corinthians, and Ephesians), also refers to them as "Achaeans." 

Another word sound I wonder about has to do with hard versus soft pronunciations of the letter "G".  If you choose the hard pronounciation, then "Jesus", a name chosen by the extraterrestrial known as Gabriel, would sound like "Gaia-Zeus" which in Pagan language would stand for a son of the generic earth mother (Gaia) and sky (or heavenly) father (Zeus).  When you start contemplating who and what Gabriel was and comparing him with what various modern contactees say the ETs they've communicated with (telepathically rather than verbally) are, however, things get a little dicey. 


This may have no direct relationship to the Mithra cult and why a sculptor chose to crown Lady Liberty with seven spikes instead of a phrygian cap.  I suspect it was pure whimsey.  But it is interesting to take a "what if" hypothetical conjecture here to make a few suggestions as to how the political process sometimes takes advantage of human credulity.

Supposing that instead of being asked to sculpt an allegorical concept in human form, the artisan were commissioned to make a portrait sculpture of an emperor who had been making political claims of being a messiah in direct contact with God, as most emperors of Rome and China did  2000 years ago (let's not mention some of the more recent examples of totalitarian leadership that took us two world wars to eliminate).  Imagine, in this day and age, a Stalin or a Mao or a Hitler or a Kaiser Wilhelm commissioning a statue of himself decked out in the seven-pointed tiara of Mithra.  Can this seem any more ridiculous than an absolute ruler claiming to be the sole interpreter of the mysteries of the i ching and/or dialectical materialism? Or to be the biological son of a pagan god?  I doubt if Jesus ever made that claim, but am less doubtful that some of His later apologists did.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2010 at 18:05
Thomas, I certainly enjoyed your post above!!!!

As regards the "seven spikes" or "seven Rays", I might suggest that Biblical literature might well have intruded into the artist's subject?

As you might well know the Bible is full to the brim with connections to seven and seventy, and multiples there of!

Thus Christ, or multiple saints of the Roman empire, as well as representations of Mithra, etc., might be shown with seven spikes or rays!ii It really seems to be but a variation of the "halo?" But, instead it also follows the "fire" theory, which represents Moses as well as Muhammed with their heads "aflame!"

Aflame, might just well mean "Golden?"

But, as we all know, it also meant "Holy!", are having God like qualities!

If you persue history and art, then you have maybe noticed hundreds of representations with varing amounts of the above "head designs" over periods covering hundreds of years in our consensual history?


Regards,



Edited by opuslola - 12-Jun-2010 at 18:20
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  Quote obx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2010 at 15:11
Sorry for bumping this topic, but I'm actually under the impression she resembles the pre-Hellenistic goddess Hecate, not Libertas or Mithra.

"She has been associated with childbirth, nurturing the young, gates and walls, doorways, crossroads, magic, lunar lore, torches and dogs."

She's also presented with 'rays' coming out of her head and holding a torch.

Libertas usually holds a spear and a laurel wreath.


Edited by obx - 20-Oct-2010 at 15:17
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2010 at 16:53
No need to apologize! New ideas and methodology are appreciated here!

For example, can Hecate have ever been connected to Athena?, etc.?

Regards,
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  Quote ConradWeiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2010 at 01:22
Wait a second. Aren't there 6 continents? At least, unofficially? 
Another year! Another deadly blow!
Another mighty empire overthrown!
And we are left, or shall be left, alone.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2010 at 08:22
I believe that there are "the Seven Seas!"

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 19:35
Mirtha is Persia, Zoroastrian, and stands for the same enlightenment as the statute of liberty.   The sun also represents this enlightenment.  Zoroasterian held the individual free will and dignity high, and Cyrus freed slaves.   Later Muslims influenced by Zoroastrian, treated their slaves very differently from Christian.  Muslim slaves to enjoy education and achieve positions of power. 
 
The Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacy, because this is how people become enlightened.  You know, as in Muslims educating slaves and allowing them to achieve positions of power. 
 
Roman soliders were attracted Mithra, and Jews adopted Zoroastrianism concepts, making Zoroastrian part of Judism, Christianity and Islam.   It might promote world peace, and get us out of the darkness we are in,  if we once again had this literacy. 
 
In the beginning of the US, literate meant literate in Greek and Roman classics, however, books were hard to come by and education was not free, so the masses were not literate.  Christians without literacy rejected the Statue of Liberty as a pagan goddess.  That is why she ended up in the harbor instead of on the main land.
 
Thank you very much for this thread. 
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