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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ghengis Khan
    Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 10:35

Sorry everyone, but posters here have no clues of what historical perspective is! You are thinking like nationalist pricks with a 20th Century brain

First Chinese people have been ruled by lots of non-Han people (Turkic, Mongol, Manchu). Same thing for other peoples (European, Indian, etc.). For example, Western Europe was populated by some original tribes (like the Basque people), then the Celts came, then the Roman came and ruled, then the Germanics invaded, then the Vikings, then the Slavics, etc. This mixture created the French, the Brittish, the Germans, the Polish, etc. Would you say that Charlemagne is a French or a German king? It is a Frankish/Germanic ruler who reigned over Celts, Romans, etc. His empire has been divided according to languages (Old French in the West and Old German in the East) and was at the origins of France and Germany. But both the French and the German are proud of him!

Chinese people are proud of Gengis Khan as Turkic people are. All Turkic leaders like Timur Lang or the Indian Moghuls have said that they are direct descendants from Gengis Khan who is a Mongol! The genius of Chinese civilisation is that it can swallow any foreing rulers: the Yuan kings became more Chinese than the Chinese were!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 11:49
But that is like saying, since the yuan rulers were mongol and since mongols once ruled russia, the Russian Empire is actually a CHinese one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 19:38

"1. Ethnicaly being a non-Chinese

2. Launching several devastating invasions into China

3. Killing perhaps millions of Chinese lifes"

 

While I have no disagreement for Genghis not been a Chinese let alone a hero, but your argument is lousy, ethnicity is unimportant, many conquerers in the past killed people including their own ethnicity and raids are common among themselves too, mongols raided other mongols often in history.

 

"But that is like saying, since the yuan rulers were mongol and since mongols once ruled russia, the Russian Empire is actually a CHinese one. "

 

No, because the Yuan never ruled Russia, the golden horde did.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 20:53
Bad example....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 04:44
um wasnt ghengis khan mongolian and he killed most of china and took over china and most of europe and died of old age. he was a mongol not chinese the great wall of China was buill cause of the mongolian army
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 09:07

fusion_wonder: So what? Do you think the Chinese will never forget Mongolian crimes committed in the 13th century and will sue Gengis' descendants at the International Court of Justice?

I like Alexander, Cesar, Napoleon, Gengis, Timur, Giap, the Tang & the Ming dynasties, etc. because for the World History, they were great men, although some committed atrocious crimes. The Chinese by considering Gengis as a Great Man are also great even if at that time Gengis submitted China. But this, a nationalist like you with a small brain will never understand! It is like these f*cking Chinese football fans who rioted because the Chinese football team lost against Japan. Nationalist bastards are in every country.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 12:53

Originally posted by fusion_wonder

um wasnt ghengis khan mongolian and he killed most of china and took over china and most of europe and died of old age. he was a mongol not chinese the great wall of China was buill cause of the mongolian army

No, he only defeated the Jin (but didn't subjugate it) and the Xixia (was destroyed completely after his death), he never conquered China, he wasn't on bad terms with the Southern Song either.

Europe? What are you talking about? He never campaigned in Europe either, only two of his generals made a reconaissance mission in Southeastern Russia. Are you confusing Batu Khan's Eastern European Campaign of 1240 with Sube'etai Ba'atur and Jebe Noyan's Mission of the 1220s?

And nope, the Great Wall wasn't built because of the Mongolian army. It was first built by the northern Chinese warring states for two reasons: to keep the other states away and to prevent the Hu in the north from raiding themselves. Later, Qin Shihuangdi united all the existing fortifications as a defence against the Xiongnu.

[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 12:59
I heard this was a move on part by the PRC to consolidate its position with minorites in Nei Mongolia
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 23:27

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

I heard this was a move on part by the PRC to consolidate its position with minorites in Nei Mongolia

Gubuk, Mongolian culture preserved better than in Mongolia(we called the Outer Mongolia). Please read another topic thread I posted in this forum .



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 23:46

Irrelevant, is Napoleon not a french hero since he is not french?

 

 Rather 2 different cases, Napoleon was educated in a french school, served in a french regiment, adopted the french culture and nationality before he raised into power.  He is still a corsican but by the time he was in power he wasn't a foreigner in the eye of the people, he was "Le petit Caporal" from the POV of his soldiers. If he was viewed as a foreigner he would never have been accepted. Ghengis is altogether another history, the guy was an invader in china and a very cruel one at it. Now saying he is a chinese hero is at most very strange.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 16:16

If white men can worship a Middle Easterner as savior of their souls,

If Europeans can praise the Roman Empire that wiped out their native cultures, then the Chinese can say "Ghengis Khan's an awesome guy"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 17:13

Gubuk, Mongolian culture preserved better than in Mongolia(we called the Outer Mongolia). Please read another topic thread I posted in this forum .

True.  But still

Grrr..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 17:48
Originally posted by demon

Gubuk, Mongolian culture preserved better than in Mongolia(we called the Outer Mongolia). Please read another topic thread I posted in this forum .

True.  But still

Mongolia still too.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 18:17

sure......... Chenjisi Han was not a Han chinese. But his was the ancestor of today's mongol chinese, which has more people than those of Outer Monglia. He was in a part of history of Chinese nation..

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 18:30
but the main heritage of the mongol exploits themselves belongs to modern-day Mongolia rather than to the People's Republic of China, not a Mongolian country, regardless of whether there are more mongols in inner/outer mongolia. sure, there are mongols in china and they historically belong to the mongol nation so u can say that genghis khan had an important influence on chinese history, but if it comes to saying to what people genghis belonged to it's definitely not chinese. that's going way too far.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 01:40

Originally posted by battleaxe

but the main heritage of the mongol exploits themselves belongs to modern-day Mongolia rather than to the People's Republic of China, not a Mongolian country, regardless of whether there are more mongols in inner/outer mongolia. sure, there are mongols in china and they historically belong to the mongol nation so u can say that genghis khan had an important influence on chinese history, but if it comes to saying to what people genghis belonged to it's definitely not chinese. that's going way too far.

Genghis Khan belonged to Chinese Mongols and Mixed blood Chinese Mongols together with those mongols in Mongolia.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 02:57
Originally posted by hannibal

 

Genghis Khan belonged to Chinese Mongols and Mixed blood Chinese Mongols together with those mongols in Mongolia.

       

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 13:25

This is pretty funny topic.  Chinggis Khaan is Chinese national hero? Don't you think it is kinda too early for April fools day?

I wonder what Chinggis Khaan would've thought about this Chinese claim?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 14:23

"Ghengis is altogether another history, the guy was an invader in china and a very cruel one at it. Now saying he is a chinese hero is at most very strange. "

 

My point was to Gubukjanggoon that been a foreigner doesn't they can't be the nations hero if you didn't notice.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 15:14
Bah, the same topic as in chinahistoryforum.com, I wrote what I thought about this there. I don't see Jungaria's Galdan Khan being claimed as chinese national hero, although he was trying to do the same thing to mongols as CK, or Baynmnkh Dayn Khan who unified all mongols after Yuan and raided Ming a couple times. The real point being made here is if inner mongolians are chinese. An absurd point, and one could also call it naive, same as the attitude that Inner Mongolia will remain in China indefinetly.
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