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Topic ClosedWhy do Turks think they are so brave?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why do Turks think they are so brave?
    Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 10:03
Originally posted by wilpuri

Also, silly to think that one ethnicity could some how be braver than another. You can't measure bravery and so you cannot state that one people is braver than the other on average. Ridiculous.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 11:25

Originally posted by Spartakus

Big deal!And we made our way from the Agean to central Asia and India having to fight a well-organized empire not different states.Those outnumbered Hellens of the Byzantine empire kicked your asses 400 centuries ago in 1821.And they had NOTHING.You had navy,cavalry,artillery and you were way too superior in numbers.You even brought Ibrahim with his Egyptians for God's shake and still you did absolutely nothing!Man,you can do better than that.And in the end,if you are superior,then why Hellas is independent?Because,simply you are not. 

If you're talking about the Alexander thing, you should also know that he was macedonian. And Alexander's army only reached central asia, but he couldnt keep his empire and power on those lands, so today, there arent any things left from hellenic invasion. But our ancestors certainly changed their "homeland" from west central asia to Anatolia.

Also, what do you mean by 400 centuries ago? There wasnt even the name "Greek" at those times.

If you mean the Greek independence cospiracy in 1821, I would oppose to your "nationalist and sided ideology". Greeks didnt act bravely or werent inferior against Ottoman power. Ottoman Empire was having its worst times, and it was called "the sick man of europe". The empire was even unable to protect its owned lands with its military forces. In everykind of invasion or actions for minority independences, the empire needed foreign help to keep its political structure, mostly Britain and Russia. And those countries used Ottoman Empire for their national goods for more than a century. So the empire didnt have ANY forces to even prevent the minorities who became independence maniacs.

You should also realize that all European powers were in the side of an independent Greece, and Russia even atacked Ottoman Empire for not accepting the agreement of Kk Kaynarca, which was created to build an independent Greek republic. So the Greeks were supported by all world powers, and the Ottoman Empire couldnt fight with all those "hungry parazites" opprssing it.

I will describe what really happened during the Greek independence works:

The Greeks were and advantaged minority under Ottoman rule. After the French revolution, some Greek intellectuals started the independence works in the second half of 18. century. After the treaty of Kk Kaynarca btw Ottomans and Russians, the Greeks earned the right to sail and trade freely in Black sea when they had a Russian flag on their trading ships. With those adventages and political actions, a seperatist group of Greeks, called Etnik-i Eterya started to interact with Britain, Austuria-Hungary, Russia and France. They were sold guns, machinery and were paid lots of loans from these countries. (in fact, these werent loans. These werent expected to paid back.) The Ottoman Empre was almost totally under control of western powers and Russia.

Finally, the Greeks rebelled in first Eflak and then Mora. The rebellion in Mora was supported both economically and politically with those imperial western powers. The Greek "Megali idea" was also and idea created by those powers, and adapted to Greek nationalism and re-building dream of Byzanthine Empire.

The Ottoman military was too weak and unable to fight, so only a few forces were sent to Mora. These forces couldnt withstand the rebrllion, so the padishah had to want help from its Turkish "vali" of Egypt, Mehmet Ali Pasha. He and his son fought to Greeks and WON, in 1821.

So the European imperial powers and Russia were shocked. They helped more and more to Greeks but these helps couldnt be enough. After that, Britain, Russia and France wanted the Ottoman Empire officially accept the Greek independence. But Mahmut II. didnt accept this, so Britain, Russia and France agreed on a dependent Greek principality. They also agreed on to sent Turks out of Mora.

So in 1827, these countries formed an alliance and attacked the weak Ottoman navy at Navarin. n the end, all the political communication btw Ottomans and these countries was ended, and the Russian declared war on Ottomans in 1828.

The Russian invaded Eflak, Bogdan and all lands in north of Tuna river. In east, they invaded until Anapa, Kars and Ardahan, which are today under Turkish rule. The Russians even reached Edirne, so th Ottoman Empire had to want peace.

According to the Treaty of Edirne; the independent Greece was accepted (1829)

So when you are talking about braveary, make sure you search about the truth under your nationalist lies.

Also, Greeks had no independence from 1453 to 1829. They were under Turkish rule, but all Turks had never been under Greek rule. And all these happened in the original Greek lands, not western steppes, so I think this could show an example of some superiority of warior skills.

Braveary is one of the most important parts of Turkish culture. It has ancientl origins, and this is a fact. I dont say Turks are the only and the bravest people in the universe, but I am only mentioning that you cannot deny a historical fact with nationalistic ideology. Turks are one of the bravest nations ever, and we will be. There can also be other brave nations in our earth, but Turks are clearly one of them. This is a cultural element from thousands of years of our nomadic civilization...

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 12:09
Originally posted by Yiannis

On wilpuri's post - most of the rest are crap anyway - I have the following observation:

I was reading that the main deficiency of the Ottoman army, was it's inability to act as a coherent body with synchronized actions. A prime example was that their rifleman never learned effectively how to perform volley shots. While their European adversaries could decimate an opponent's attack with 2-3 well aimed, volley shots, the Ottoman troops were firing individually, some soldiers aiming, some shooting and some other shouting and charging at will. That kind of individual bravery may be good in order to get the interest of one's superiors but it's fatal in modern warfare for both the individual as well as the army.

My comments regarded mostly the individual soldier. Regarding cohesion and firing in volleys, this was also a difficulty for Napoleonic Era Europeans. The first round would be a synchronized volley, but as I understand it, more often than not, the fire fight would after that consist of sporadic shooting, rather than in volleys. At least according to some of the accounts that I have read.

You should also realize that all European powers were in the side of an independent Greece, and Russia even atacked Ottoman Empire for not accepting the agreement of Kk Kaynarca, which was created to build an independent Greek republic. So the Greeks were supported by all world powers, and the Ottoman Empire couldnt fight with all those "hungry parazites" opprssing it.

This is not true. Austria-Hungary under Metternich was against all such uprisings caused by the new winds of change in Europe; Liberalism and Nationalism. This was called the Congress System. Not all of the other European powers heeded it, and so it became rather ineffective, since Austria at this time was not strong enough to intervene beyond its borders in any significant manner. Metternich attempted to convince the Tzar not side with the revolting Greeks, even if they were fellow Orthodox Christians.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 17:08

Some people are more brave than others but i dont think that it is because their nationality. When someone is fighting just for his goverment, king, lord, monay might be more careful about his life and health than someone fighting for his freedom, belives or just for his own honour. Few hundrieds brave people who have somthing worth to fight for may defeat thousands of enemies who fight only because were ordered to fight. People who think that their life is worth less than the goal they are fighting for may do miracles on the battlefield. Take for example polish cavalry charge in Spain at Somosierra. About 200 Poles charged against 10.000 Spaniards who had also 4 batteries of artillery and their charge was succesfull, forced Spaniards to flee in panic. A cavalry charge without precedence in history. They did it because belived that if they will fighting well for Napoleon, he will restore freedom of their country. At Funginerola 300 Poles defeated 3000 British, Spanish and foreign mercenaries for the same reason. If you fight for somthing important you dont care for your life and others think that you are brave.

The second sort of those whom i consider brave are such troops who think that are elitary and in fact are elitary. When you belive that your commander is better than the enemy, when you belive that your equipment is better than this enemy has, when you think that you are better trained than the enemy, you dont really afraid to attack him. Caesar's solders were ready to attack anyone because served under great commander and considered themselves to be uber soldiers. Same apply to Napoleon's army before he started loosing. His soldiers were ready for everything because belived that their emperor cant loose. So the Germans during WW2 before started loosing.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 18:23

chinese people hate japanese people

greek people hate turkish people

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 18:34
Chinese people hate Japanese people? I never heard of that before.  Why is this?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 18:36
Originally posted by Spartakus

Originally posted by wilpuri


Also, silly to think that one ethnicity could some how be braver than another. You can't measure bravery and so you cannot state that one people is braver than the other on average. Ridiculous.

God bless you! That's what we are trying to prove here for 2 webpages...


I agree with this also- history recounts the stories of many heroic societies such as the Homeric Greeks but even then it is on an individual basis.
The Turks and many other groups have a history of being brave warriors but they had their share of cowards as well. For me, sacrificing my life to save a Childs would be the highest calling of bravery and not killig someone in battle. If this should happen I hope I am brave enough to do such a task.

We had a couple of children sadly murdered recently and I found myself wishing I could have prevented this fiendish act, even if I lost my life. I like living to!!! Everyday is a new adventure, so I do not have a death wish. It is more of an obligation in my opinion but words are cheap.

Bravery should be looked at on an individual basis.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 18:37

Originally posted by Feramez

Chinese people hate Japanese people? I never heard of that before.  Why is this?

Japanese are racists and think that are ubermensh and that chinese are subhuman while the chinese also want to cinsider themselves as the masters of Asia.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 19:44
Originally posted by Feramez

Chinese people hate Japanese people? I never heard of that before. Why is this?


ever heard of WW2
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 22:04
Originally posted by coolstorm

greek people hate turkish people

This isn't really true. I think it is more because we have conflicting views on issues.. Not neccesarily hate

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 02:12

The Greek revolution started on the 25th of March, 1821.

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

. With those adventages and political actions, a seperatist group of Greeks, called Etnik-i Eterya started to interact with Britain, Austuria-Hungary, Russia and France. They were sold guns, machinery and were paid lots of loans from these countries. (in fact, these werent loans. These werent expected to paid back.)

The group was called "Philiki Etaireia" - "Friendly Brotherhood". They never bought any guns etc until the uprising started. Then (and only after the initial couple of years where the Greeks had no outside help) did they begin to secure loans (under appaling terms and they were all paid off).

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Finally, the Greeks rebelled in first Eflak and then Mora

I have no idea what these places are. This rebellion (because there were many more in the past - all drown in blood) started in the Peloponnese (By "Mora" you must mean "Moreas"). Then it spread in all of Greece and the islands, in some places successfully in others with disastrous results. The Sultans decision to retaliate by mindless slaughters of civilians (Killing the Patriarch, slaughters in Psara & Chios etc) caught the interest of Western public and turned their governments in favor of the Greeks. Up till then these governments were uninterested to challenge the status-quo in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

The Ottoman military was too weak and unable to fight, so only a few forces were sent to Mora. These forces couldnt withstand the rebrllion, so the padishah had to want help from its Turkish "vali" of Egypt, Mehmet Ali Pasha. He and his son fought to Greeks and WON, in 1821.

The Ottoman forces were greatly outnumbering the Greeks in both troops and equipment and after the defeat of Ali Pasha they were able to muster even more troops. They were all defeated so in 1825 (not 1821) the Ottomans called the Egyptians (who were practically independent from the ottoman empire) to invade Peloponnese from the south. Their reward would be the island of Crete. The Egyptian army was trained and equipped by the French and quickly effected serious defeats to the Greeks. In 1928 the western powers asked to mediate and end the dispute. They send their joined Anglo-French-Russian fleet to Greece. When the Ottomans refused to talk they attacked and destroyed the Egyptian fleet at Navarino. Without supplies the Egyptian troops were not able to continue fighting and that was practically the end of the war. Lesser battles between Greeks and Ottoman continued for a few more months.

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also, Greeks had no independence from 1453 to 1829. They were under Turkish rule, but all Turks had never been under Greek rule. And all these happened in the original Greek lands, not western steppes, so I think this could show an example of some superiority of warior skills..

No it doesn't say anything about "warrior skills". But it does say a lot about the social-economical factors that let to this expansion. The same factors led to the ensuing decline of the empire. Read more books on the subject, it's an interesting topic.

Originally posted by coolstorm

greek people hate turkish people

I hate no people at all, so don't speak on my behalf (ok, perhaps I hate a couple, but they are both Greeks

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 04:34
Originally posted by coolstorm

greek people hate turkish people

[/QUOTE

Why? Non facist Turkish people dont hate Greeks.(mos

Why? Non facist Turkish people dont hate Greeks.(most people I know think of Greeks as friends.)

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 09:57

"The group was called "Philiki Etaireia" - "Friendly Brotherhood". They never bought any guns etc until the uprising started. Then (and only after the initial couple of years where the Greeks had no outside help) did they begin to secure loans (under appaling terms and they were all paid off)."

Not true. I dont know what Greeks called it, but it was called Etnik-i Eterya by Ottomans. Also, they werent such  friendly. Most of their works and purpose was to build an independent Greek state. Also, they had lots of lonas that werent paid back, only for help.

"I have no idea what these places are. This rebellion (because there were many more in the past - all drown in blood) started in the Peloponnese (By "Mora" you must mean "Moreas"). Then it spread in all of Greece and the islands, in some places successfully in others with disastrous results. The Sultans decision to retaliate by mindless slaughters of civilians (Killing the Patriarch, slaughters in Psara & Chios etc) caught the interest of Western public and turned their governments in favor of the Greeks. Up till then these governments were uninterested to challenge the status-quo in the Eastern Mediterranean."

I meant Moreas. The killing of patriarch wasnt a slaughter for these Greek rebellions. It was because that the patriarch tried to rebel the Greek population of stanbul against the padishah. He did lots of "seperatist" works, so he was hanged in the front door of "Fener Rum Patrikhanesi". And uptill that time, the European governments and Russia certainly had the plan to seperate and divide Ottoman Empire and the Balkan nations. Russia always wanted to own the Balkans and have some Medeterrinnaen control, and used pan-slavism for this purpose. They aslo always supported Greek activities for independence. Also, England and France were the countries that in fact created the idea of Greek independence and seperatist actions.

"The Ottoman forces were greatly outnumbering the Greeks in both troops and equipment and after the defeat of Ali Pasha they were able to muster even more troops. They were all defeated so in 1825 (not 1821) the Ottomans called the Egyptians (who were practically independent from the ottoman empire) to invade Peloponnese from the south. Their reward would be the island of Crete. The Egyptian army was trained and equipped by the French and quickly effected serious defeats to the Greeks. In 1928 the western powers asked to mediate and end the dispute. They send their joined Anglo-French-Russian fleet to Greece. When the Ottomans refused to talk they attacked and destroyed the Egyptian fleet at Navarino. Without supplies the Egyptian troops were not able to continue fighting and that was practically the end of the war. Lesser battles between Greeks and Ottoman continued for a few more months."

I remembered that the victory of Mehmet Ali Pasha was on 1827. The Ottomans were unable to stop Greek rebellion, so they wanted help from an eyalet of the empire, Egypt. Egypt wasnt independent, it was a dependent state to Ottoman Empire, and it was an Ottoman terratory. Their reward wasnt Crete, their reward was being the "vali" of Grete and Syria. The western powers wanted an idndependent Greece, but Mahmud II didnt accept this, so they attacked Navarino.

Also the example I gave was showing some militarical superiority. Not only political or economical, because they mean nothing without military skills.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 23:50
Man this question has really morphed!!

Some Turks are brave and some are not!

Some American are brave and some are not!

This can be said about everyone but ethnic hate has nothing to do with bravery.

I posted some of the exaggerations about Native Americans but overall they had to be tough to survive. Brave-hmmm! - depends on the individual.

www.dictionary.com
4 entries found for brave.
brave   Audio pronunciation of "brave" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brv)
adj. braver, bravest

   1. Possessing or displaying courage; valiant.
   2. Making a fine display; impressive or showy: a coat of brave red lipstick on a mouth so wrinkled that it didn't even have a clear outline (Anne Tyler).

According to #2 cross dressers are defined as brave-lol
   3. Excellent; great: The Romans were like brothers/In the brave days of old (Thomas Macaulay).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2005 at 05:26

These say that the Turks were always outnumbered,but in Manzikert,Selchukid Army defeated the Great Byzantine army(which was composed with Greeks,Franks,Hungarians,Vikings(Vareg Guards),Slavs,also Oghuz-Kypchak-Pecheneg Turks)with only 50.000 men.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2005 at 15:47
So? thats alot of men. How many did the Byzantine army have? You can't just give one sided numbers.. And I really don't trust any numbers going that far back, because they are always bias..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2005 at 16:17
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

These say that the Turks were always outnumbered,but in Manzikert,Selchukid Army defeated the Great Byzantine army(which was composed with Greeks,Franks,Hungarians,Vikings(Vareg Guards),Slavs,also Oghuz-Kypchak-Pecheneg Turks)with only 50.000 men.

The battle of Manzikert is not a good example because of simple reasons:The Byzantine empire was in constant decay at that time,so it's troops were poorely equipped or trained.The Byzantine army had lost it's quality in battle and the others were merceneries caring only for their lives and money,not for the Byzantine empire.So the "Great Byzantine army" was nothing more than a bubble.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2005 at 16:20
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

These say that the Turks were always outnumbered,but in Manzikert,Selchukid Army defeated the Great Byzantine army(which was composed with Greeks,Franks,Hungarians,Vikings(Vareg Guards),Slavs,also Oghuz-Kypchak-Pecheneg Turks)with only 50.000 men.

The battle of Manzikert is noty a good example because of simple reasons:The Byzantine empire was in constant decay at that time and it's troops were poorely equipped or trained.The Byzantine army had lost it's quality in  battle and the others were merceneries caring only for their lives and money,not for the Byzantine empire.So the "Great Byzantine army" was nothing more than  a bubble. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2005 at 16:25
Originally posted by coolstorm

chinese people hate japanese people

greek people hate turkish people

Hellen citizens do not hate Turkish citizens

Turkish citizens do not hate  Hellen citizens

Hellen nationalists hate all Turks

Turkish nationalists hate all Hellens.

If there is a chance some of the Hellen citizens,non-nationalist citizens, start to hate Turkish citizens and the other way around this is due to the nationalistic propaganda.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2005 at 00:12
"nationalistic propaganda."

"chinese people hate japanese people"

We should alwasy beware of nationalism, especially recent development between China and Japan, and Korea and Japan.
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