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Sino-Japanese relations through history.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sino-Japanese relations through history.
    Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 08:48
How was Japan seeing China,in cultural, political and military field through history and the opposite?I had a discussion on that with a friend and the conclusion was that the Japs were feeling superior to the Chinese. 
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 09:59

Well, afaik, Japan tends to feel superior over those who are worse off, but tends to praise and worship those who are better.  Like before Meiji revolution, they did consider Ming and other Chinese dynasties as superior, and adopted many of its policies, like the System of Government and it's hieroarchy.  But after they've seen European supremacy over China, they started adopting the Europeans, and starting warshipping it's ideals. 

Currently Japan is better off economically than China, thus Japanese won't care about them.  Unless China economically-wise defeats Japan, which would come in a couple of years.

Grrr..
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  Quote Mystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 17:16
Japan does have a superiority complex against China in modern times simply due to the fact that Japan was able to modernize whereas China wasn't. Also given the fact the bitter history of war over the past century between these two can also add to the sentiment. Historically speaking however, the Japanese did not look down on the Chinese but on the contrary as role models. A good majority of Japanese cultural and political elements were borrowed from China. But as Demon said, the Japanese saw the superiority of European ways in the 18th-19th centuries and decided to adopt their ideas instead.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 17:24

for the majority of the last two centuries, the chinese were feeling superior to the japanese and the japanese were feeling inferior to the Chinese sending tributes and regarded the chinese emperor (especially during the tang dynasty) as their overlord. wa japan was regarded as a nation of "short slaves" in chinese during the han dynasty. Much of the japanese government structure and civil system were adopted from Tang China.

the situation didn't get reverse until the end of the 19th century. but it's switching again. i would say for the most time, chinese people have looked down on japanese people throughout the last two centuries. in fact, they still do kinda. in mainland china, japanese people are regarded as "little japs" even today. any chinese person would love to see japan vanish from history. it's a commonly hated country in china.

even today, most japanese still admire ancient chinese culture, poetry, tradition. the japanese emperor's title and year title are still decided based on han chinese tradition. most japanese know about chinese history. for example, dynasty warriors, romance of the three kingdoms, and a lot of games based on chinese history are made by the japanese.

on a greater scale, it was only a brief japanese intervention of chinese domination in east asia.



Edited by coolstorm
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 23:14

Hey Spartakus and Coolstorm,

Warning: "jap" is a derorgatory term for Japanese.  I assume you buys weren't aware of that fact (I can see the temptation to write it as an abbreviation, but be warned now that it is not an acceptable term.)  (Clarification: Coolstorm said it in quotation, meaning that it's not his words but the words of others, so I'm not saying he's making a mistake here.  I only included him just in case he isn't aware of the derorgatory connotation of the term.)



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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 23:20
i am aware of that. i was just trying to tell others how some chinese people call them even today.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 06:43
Derorgatory?I did not know.I am sorry.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 11:47

I think there is a love hate relationship between Japan and China.  There is a certain amount of respect reflected by Japan's adaptation of Chinese culture & incorporating it into their own.  I know Japanese students who know far far more about Chinese history (Including Romance of the Three Kingdoms) and my Chinese counterparts.  In the same token, some (I hate to generalize) do feel that if you are not my superior, I must be yours attitude.  This is most prevailing with their feelings about Koreans.  Man, if you think they look down on China, ask them about Korea.

In the same token, Chinese feel that superiority complex also.  Some (again no generalizations) feel that they are Greece and Rome all wrapped up into one great culture.  The difference between the Japanese and Chinese attitude is that Japanese will evaluate the situation and if they see they are inferior, they will admit it (not openly of course) and try to adapt their style to replicate the superior's style (like China and Europeans).  The Chinese will not adapt and stick to their guns at almost all cost.  However, they are more open toward individuals (foreigners) as compared to Japanese. 

On a side note, I think part of the reason why the Chinese fell behind on the technology side (from Middle Ming onward to maybe last couple of years) is because of corruption/greed.  You can say it was the downfall of most, if not all countries.

 

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 15:41
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

I think there is a love hate relationship between Japan and China.  There is a certain amount of respect reflected by Japan's adaptation of Chinese culture & incorporating it into their own.  I know Japanese students who know far far more about Chinese history (Including Romance of the Three Kingdoms) and my Chinese counterparts.  In the same token, some (I hate to generalize) do feel that if you are not my superior, I must be yours attitude.  This is most prevailing with their feelings about Koreans.  Man, if you think they look down on China, ask them about Korea.

In the same token, Chinese feel that superiority complex also.  Some (again no generalizations) feel that they are Greece and Rome all wrapped up into one great culture.  The difference between the Japanese and Chinese attitude is that Japanese will evaluate the situation and if they see they are inferior, they will admit it (not openly of course) and try to adapt their style to replicate the superior's style (like China and Europeans).  The Chinese will not adapt and stick to their guns at almost all cost.  However, they are more open toward individuals (foreigners) as compared to Japanese. 

I agree that Chinese tend to have a sort of complacency, but when they are humiliated in the most crushing way, their ego shatter and they feel a severe "negative" inferiority complex (as opposed to Japanese "positive" inferority complex that motivates them to learn from others and eventually surpass others.)  When Chinese began to feel inferior (the past century,) the tendency is to turn against themselves, blame everything on their past, and worship the "superior" people (such as the West.)  To demonstrate this, speak fluent English next time you are shopping in, say, Hong Kong: note the difference of attitude they have towards you from if you spoke Cantonese or Mandarin to them (don't even speak Mandarin, especially not with a Mainland accent, Hong Kong people will treat you like dirt.)  You will note a drastic change of attitude, even if you're not White, you just have to speak fluent English.

On a side note, I think part of the reason why the Chinese fell behind on the technology side (from Middle Ming onward to maybe last couple of years) is because of corruption/greed.  You can say it was the downfall of most, if not all countries.

That's a bit oversimplifying.  A major reason that Japan's Meiji Restoration succeeded but the Chinese reformation didn't was that China was much, much larger and the political sectors were too diffuse.  The reformers had a really difficult time uniting themselves.  Japan also had its share of conservatives reluctant to change, but the smallness of size made it much easier for the reformers to oppose the conservatives.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 17:20

(don't even speak Mandarin, especially not with a Mainland accent, Hong Kong people will treat you like dirt.)

haha, i agree. never ever speak mandarin in hk, or if you do, don't let others hear it...

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 20:49
for most of history Japan looked up at China, the first Sin o-Japanese war and the ease of the victory is the real turning point in attitudes, then it became a racist view.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 22:34
Originally posted by coolstorm

(don't even speak Mandarin, especially not with a Mainland accent, Hong Kong people will treat you like dirt.)

haha, i agree. never ever speak mandarin in hk, or if you do, don't let others hear it...

It's quite sad indeed.  A friend of my mom went to Hong Kong, and for some reason people thot they were Mainlanders (they've been living the US for a long time.)  Then they busted out speaking English, and the service people came serving them like bees on honey.  It's disgusting the way Hong Kong people cower at all things English.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 02:12
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by coolstorm

(don't even speak Mandarin, especially not with a Mainland accent, Hong Kong people will treat you like dirt.)

haha, i agree. never ever speak mandarin in hk, or if you do, don't let others hear it...

It's quite sad indeed.  A friend of my mom went to Hong Kong, and for some reason people thot they were Mainlanders (they've been living the US for a long time.)  Then they busted out speaking English, and the service people came serving them like bees on honey.  It's disgusting the way Hong Kong people cower at all things English.

that's also why you talk to your friends in english when clubbing. a lot easier to pick up chicks.

well, i think it's been the case in hk for a long time, but it's changing now as the mainlanders are spending big bucks in hk.

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 02:41
True, money talks in HK.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 10:55

To MengTzu, Tobodai, & Coolstorm,

I am from HK & you guys hit it right on the mark.  However, I think attitudes are changing because those mainlanders are bringing big bucks to HK.  That is the same attitude as the Japanese with Chinese but I believe it will change in short time.  When you think about it, in all societies, it is all about money.  If you have more money, others will treat you better.  If you have less, you are treated like a surf.  However, i see the tide changing.  Quite a number of foreigners are learning Mandarin because they feel that it will be a important language in business affairs. 

Back to Mengtzu reply to my post, I agree with your statement and like to add that the inferiority complex that Chinese suffered is partly caused by financial constraints.  Individually & as a country.  They see how backward we were compared to the West & Japan.  But it goes further than that.  Again, this is my observations, Japanese stick together and help each other out.  Chinese don't.  You can make the case that there are fewer Japanese around so numbers equate strength.  The Chinese have an more American or individualistic attitude about everything.  That can be a good and bad thing.  When Japanese make a decision, it is a group decision & blame & credit is dispersed evenly.  Chinese make decisions individually and take all the credit when things go well & blame somebody else when things go bad.  On the same token, Chinese are more flexible while Japanese are more rigid in many ways.   Please keep in mind that these are my observations & I hate to generalize.

The teamwork of Japanese and lack of by the Chinese, I get to the Ming Dynasty statement.  Things look so good during the Yongle & Hongwu period.  Land expansion, Technologically superior to everybody, Treasure Fleet to Africa, Taking the fight to the Mongols by Yongle.  Then it all came crashing down.  My feeling that it happened is because not because of Confucius teaching as stated in many of the textbooks.  These teaching was around in the Tang & Song Dynasties & they flourish from trade with other countries.  I believe it is caused by corruption & greed (in a bad way).  The conservatives did not want change because it might diminish their power base.  The Eunech (misspelling) also feared the same.  I can go on and on but I would have to type a college thesis.  If interested, I read a book called "The Year of No Signifiance" which detailed the rule of Emperor Wanli.  Wanli (that fat, self indulgent, lazy sh*t) was the cancer which eventually cause the downfall of the Ming & ushered the rise of the Manchu.  The book is out of print though.

The Meiji rest. materialized, from my view, due to their defeat at Korea buy the Ming & Korean.  Followed by the realization that the western powers was indeed superior to them.  They realized they had to evolve or see their fate like what was currently happening at the time with China. 

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 19:17
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

The Chinese have an more American or individualistic attitude about everything.  That can be a good and bad thing. 

No way.  The Chinese have a kind of "collective individualism."  There's is a Chinese saying, "every family sweeps the snow in front of its own house."  It is still not individualism, it's clanishness, if you will.  Chinese people are clicky, whether the cliques are families or groups of friends.  Each group takes care of its own, refusing to have greater integration.  Of course, I'm generalizing as well.

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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 01:18
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

The Chinese have an more American or individualistic attitude about everything.  That can be a good and bad thing. 

No way.  The Chinese have a kind of "collective individualism."  There's is a Chinese saying, "every family sweeps the snow in front of its own house."  It is still not individualism, it's clanishness, if you will.  Chinese people are clicky, whether the cliques are families or groups of friends.  Each group takes care of its own, refusing to have greater integration.  Of course, I'm generalizing as well.

agreed...like Dr Sun Yat-Sen said in his Three Principles of the People...he said that Chinese will go through great lenghts to protect and expand his clan...he'll even die for it...but when it comes to serving or dying for the nation...he shrugs his shoulders.



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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 10:48

To Mengtzu & Babyblue,

I agree with your interpretation.  I should have been more complete with my statement.  Just alot of stuff in one email.

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  Quote RED GUARD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 18:42
        Today, almost everyone in China hates Japan after what they did in WW2. But in Japan, people seem to like the Chinese and some of video games and amine are related to China. I don't why my people still dislike the Japanese, while in Japan, they are treated with amazement. I mean come on, WW2 was like 50 years ago.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 22:04
not only because of what they did in ww2, but also what they are doing in modern time.
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