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Sino-Japanese relations through history.

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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sino-Japanese relations through history.
    Posted: 30-Apr-2005 at 17:36
Originally posted by King Chulalongkorn

Originally posted by Elanjie

Originally posted by King Chulalongkorn

I think that the Chinese people need to cool down..its not healthy for their image to be seen as protesting and agitated.


   Many chinese also have such thoughts and always being cool and peaceful, but when they walk onto the street, nobody force them, they just join the protesting and demostration.

   Acoording to someone's logic, we generation of mainland chinese grow up under the anti-japanese taught, that is why we hate japan. Basiclly, I don't think so, we could distinguish what the Japan government does and common japanese people. But we are also quite aware what the spirit nature and unique japanese cultureral influence  are, they are "dangerous" in some sense, easy to be inflamed to extreme. They once learned much from China, but they didn't learn to be honest and sincerely. Japanese are real hard-working under high pressure , I don't expect some of them have good health both with body and minds.

   It is not only about the remodify on school books whick would be only a trigger, but also their dirty works done to the Diaoyu island and taiwan issue.

     So, your country had never been real controlled by China as you say, but you are always having strong sensitive and easily to be angered in many areas ,sometimes in words.

     Do you think the image were more important than your country's intergrity and respect?

 

 

     Well, well, I lost my way, for discussion history not to be emotional.

  



So you justify the anger and the protest of the Chinese because of Japan's exercise of its national right to claim its territoriality? You do understand that the islands that Japan claims are recognized by the international community as well as from the United States.

As for the Japanese claim to protect Taiwan, its mere strategy with Taiwan and the United States. Its their national practice to uphold the continuation of the democratic state of Taiwan. Nothing wrong with that.

Please do not ignore why people in China are angry at the government of Japan.In fact, we did and do try to forget everthing unpleasant between us,but very funny, the leaders of Japanese government continually reminded us ( by their action not words)they Japanese believe what their former generation did on us were right.
 
There is nothing wrong with our angerness and protest, what's wrong was the violent action,but 99% Chinese demonstrators kept the peace. Western media, such as CNN and washington post(through my reading)deliberately exaggerated the negative side of the protest and distain the true feeling of us. In their eyes, a people under the rule of  communist party,  never have their own voice,if there is a voice,it must be utilized by the CCP government. Wrong!

My  friend, don't justify what Japan did because of their Karaok.If Japan did as 1/2 good as German did on history, everything will be ok.

As for the Diaoyu Island,Japanese government not only claims it,but also occupying it now. This does not mean the Island belong to Japan, for international community including USA, never recognized what Japan did on our Island was legal,if you don't believe,please ask your government.
 
China are doing bussiness with Japan, perhaps the CCP goverment think business is the most important thing at present, and does not willing to spoil the commercial relationship between China and Japan just because of the tiny Island. So I can  tell you that the ultimate solution will come once the time is appropriate.

As for Taiwan,I,a mainlander, uphold the continuation of its' democratic state  too. But we do not need Japan,a former criminal,uphold the continuation of democracy of a part of my country by its military force.

 



Edited by hannibal
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  Quote moreshige Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 01:29
Originally posted by coolstorm

for the majority of the last two centuries, the chinese were feeling superior to the japanese and the japanese were feeling inferior to the Chinese sending tributes and regarded the chinese emperor (especially during the tang dynasty) as their overlord. wa japan was regarded as a nation of "short slaves" in chinese during the han dynasty. Much of the japanese government structure and civil system were adopted from Tang China.

the situation didn't get reverse until the end of the 19th century. but it's switching again. i would say for the most time, chinese people have looked down on japanese people throughout the last two centuries. in fact, they still do kinda. in mainland china, japanese people are regarded as "little japs" even today. any chinese person would love to see japan vanish from history. it's a commonly hated country in china.

even today, most japanese still admire ancient chinese culture, poetry, tradition. the japanese emperor's title and year title are still decided based on han chinese tradition. most japanese know about chinese history. for example, dynasty warriors, romance of the three kingdoms, and a lot of games based on chinese history are made by the japanese.

on a greater scale, it was only a brief japanese intervention of chinese domination in east asia.




You forgot to mention Hideyoshi wanted to conquer Ming because he felt superior.
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  Quote Elanjie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 22:31

Originally posted by moreshige



You forgot to mention Hideyoshi wanted to conquer Ming because he felt superior.

   Did he really feel superior? I doubt. For people sometimes  like to show superior when he was inferior complex.

   I would consider it as ego-boost more than confidence for Hideyoshi at that time. Japan was lacked of necessarily resource and prosperity to feel superior to Ming then.  Well, in the WWII, Germen slaughtered Jewrish, For excuse they said they were superior while the truth is Jewish's factual superior bring  disasters to Jewrish themselves.

 

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 23:12
Either that, or it was just a ploy to get his political enemies killed.
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  Quote moreshige Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 07:50
Originally posted by Elanjie

Originally posted by moreshige



You forgot to mention Hideyoshi wanted to conquer Ming because he felt superior.

   Did he really feel superior? I doubt. For people sometimes  like to show superior when he was inferior complex.

   I would consider it as ego-boost more than confidence for Hideyoshi at that time. Japan was lacked of necessarily resource and prosperity to feel superior to Ming then.  Well, in the WWII, Germen slaughtered Jewrish, For excuse they said they were superior while the truth is Jewish's factual superior bring  disasters to Jewrish themselves.

 



Being superior or inferior is subjective.  Nobody is actually superior or inferior. By what grounds?  lol  But Hideyoshi actually did feel he was superior and believed in the right to conquer Ming.

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  Quote moreshige Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 07:53
Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon

Either that, or it was just a ploy to get his political enemies killed.


His political enemies were the other daimyos by which time he became sole ruler of Japan. 
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 13:37
Hideyoshi had a large amount of restless army which knew nothing better than war.  To keep his army active, kill off some enemies, and keep himself preoccupied with war.  Also concentrating on waging war is far more entertaining than setting tax rates, building dams, establishing a solid economy.  What's that old saying "You can conquer the world from horseback, but you cannot rule from horseback." or something like that.
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  Quote Aura Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:25

Would it have been possible for a 15-year-old, single, Japanese girl, to travel from Japan to China during the late 1700s, preferrably between the years 1769-1773?

 
(please reply asap, today if possible!)
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 15:44
the relationship of japan and china is the same as that of england and france or similar
 
or am I wrong
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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:15
similiar, but I'd say current sino-japanese relations are nowhere near as good as British-French relations currently are

Edited by Illuminati - 05-Jul-2006 at 16:16
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 20:29
I would say it's not the same at all. While England and France had always been rivals, if not enemies, historically, the two world wars have definitely changed that. The rivalries that exist between Britain and France now these days are more cultural and economic ones. I don't see any deep-seated HATRED and contempt between people of these two countries.
 
In the case of the Sino-Japanese relations, prior to Japan's modernization, China had always been like a "parent figure" to Japan. However, of course the Japanese modernization changed all that which eventually led to the Japanese aggression in China. There are several consequences of that. First, it has completely reversed the traditional "parent-child" relation between the two countries and I think psychologically it's still quite hard for the Chinese people to accept that these former "barbarians" have now surpassed them in both economic achievement and international prestige. There may be some jealousy involved. However, this sentiment pales in comparison with another one - that of anger. The atrocities that the Japanese committed in China during the Second World War were unprecedented in human history. As has been witnessed in the many flame wars between sworn enemies in this forum, these memories have become so deeply engraved into the national psyche of the Chinese people that it's hard to imagine that they could be erased in generations to come. And the fact that the Japanese nation seems to be quite indifferent to such sentiment definitely doesn't help.
 
   
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 20:52

I agree with Flyingzone's input on this matter. Using western standard to judge Asian affairs or non-European affairs in the general in the practical world often result in "tragic" outcomes.

Flyingzone is well aware of this problem with "euro-centric" views,(the counter part would be "sino-centric", so no offense there)

I remember long time ago I (innocently)started a thread entitled "Koreans: the Italians of Asia". It was meant to be a "compliment" to the success of contemporary Korean pop culture and its conquest of the East Asian pop cultural scene. However, a very perceptive and wise Korean forumer correctly pointed out to me that why should Koreans be called "Italians of Asia" and why aren't Italians called "Koreans of Europe." It totally woke me up. This "Eurocentric" mindset is so prevalent in so many of us that sometimes if affects the way we see the world. "
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 09:42
Originally posted by The Charioteer

I agree with Flyingzone's input on this matter. Using western standard to judge Asian affairs or non-European affairs in the general in the practical world often result in "tragic" outcomes.

Flyingzone is well aware of this problem with "euro-centric" views,(the counter part would be "sino-centric", so no offense there)

I remember long time ago I (innocently)started a thread entitled "Koreans: the Italians of Asia". It was meant to be a "compliment" to the success of contemporary Korean pop culture and its conquest of the East Asian pop cultural scene. However, a very perceptive and wise Korean forumer correctly pointed out to me that why should Koreans be called "Italians of Asia" and why aren't Italians called "Koreans of Europe." It totally woke me up. This "Eurocentric" mindset is so prevalent in so many of us that sometimes if affects the way we see the world. "
 
When the mind is gone, one need the body to deliver.
 
Now clear this up for me, is the success of Italian Pop Culture only as recent as the rise of Korean Pop Culture?
 
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 09:52
Originally posted by Ryukyu Magic

 
Now clear this up for me, is the success of Italian Pop Culture only as recent as the rise of Korean Pop Culture?
 
 
ask Flyingzone, its his idea.
I merely wanted to use the notion that he has admitted that "euro-centric" mindset does sometimes affect the way they(westerners) see the world.
 
perhaps i should edit the length of the quote?
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 10:19
Originally posted by moreshige


You forgot to mention Hideyoshi wanted to conquer Ming because he felt superior.
 
 
notice his hat is Chinese-style, the hat was given by emperor Wanli of Ming dynasty to Hideyoshi.
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 21:14
Originally posted by Ryukyu Magic

 
Now clear this up for me, is the success of Italian Pop Culture only as recent as the rise of Korean Pop Culture?
 
 
If I am to speak for the person who argued against the use of the Italian analogy to describe the rise and growing influence of Korean pop culture in East Asia, while unquestionably the success of the Italian pop culture did precede that of the Korean one, the huge difference in the nature between the two renders such comparison meaningless in the first place. That of the Italian pop culture is more related to the fashion, culinary, and design industries whereas the Korean one is more related to the entertainment industry. (I personally also don't think that the Italian entertainment industry has made any huge impact on the world.)
 
So I think that forumer who accused me of being subtly Eurocentric does have a point. I was focusing on one and only one thing that the Italians did "better" than their Korean counterparts - that they did it EARLIER. But any comparison between the two (if comparison itself is necessary or even justified) should be looked at from many different angles. One could, for instance, argue that the Italians could have a lot to learn from the Koreans when it comes to the creativity and diversity of their ENTERTAINMENT industry.
 
Am I being too politically correct here? Maybe. But tell you what, if that Korean forumer had not been here to raise that point, I would have never even thought that that apparently "innocent" statement might not be that "innocent" to some after all. Anything that makes any of us THINK twice is a good thing.
  
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 14:21
The question of whether Hideyoshi wanted to invade the Ming is an interesting one.  On one side of the argument, Hideyoshi really did see himself as rightful heir to all of Asia, even sending out scouts to find suitable locations for palaces as far as India.  The fact that he's wearing a cap given to him by the Ming emperor does nothing to prove that he did not in fact feel superior to the Ming.  On the other side we have the idea of Hideyoshi as a political genius.  Sending the restless samurai off to a foreign land so that they wouldn't cause trouble at home and sentencing his political enemies to an early death without having to ever really fight them.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 04:12
Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon

The question of whether Hideyoshi wanted to invade the Ming is an interesting one.  On one side of the argument, Hideyoshi really did see himself as rightful heir to all of Asia, even sending out scouts to find suitable locations for palaces as far as India.  The fact that he's wearing a cap given to him by the Ming emperor does nothing to prove that he did not in fact feel superior to the Ming.  On the other side we have the idea of Hideyoshi as a political genius.  Sending the restless samurai off to a foreign land so that they wouldn't cause trouble at home and sentencing his political enemies to an early death without having to ever really fight them.
 
He was furious when Ming granted him only king of Japan, rather than heir to Ming, the war resumed after that. The cap is symbolic, but can be very different in the eyes of Ming to Hideyoshi. But he did wear it on formal occasions, at least it indicate he recognized the importance of Ming at the time, why would he wear a cap which was supposedly given to king of Japan,rather than what he demanded for, heir to Ming? May be he wanted to show Japanese samurai, that his legitamacy as sovereign of Japan is also acknowledged by Ming. Added bonus to the second idea you mentioned.


Edited by The Charioteer - 11-Jul-2006 at 04:16
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 19:29
There's no doubt that Hideyoshi valued objects from the Ming.  There are few countries in the world who would have looked in disdain at presents from the Ming court, but his appreciation for Chinese material goods may have been overshadowed by a superiority complex based around the idea that it was Hideyoshi's destiny to conquer all of Asia, if that assumption itself is even true in the first place.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 22:01
Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon

There's no doubt that Hideyoshi valued objects from the Ming.  There are few countries in the world who would have looked in disdain at presents from the Ming court, but his appreciation for Chinese material goods may have been overshadowed by a superiority complex based around the idea that it was Hideyoshi's destiny to conquer all of Asia, if that assumption itself is even true in the first place.
 
The cap is not just some " material objects", not some presents by Ming court or goods purchased or acquired from Ming. It is politically symbolic to Ming as well to Hideyoshi. But its interesting to see, he resumed the fighting because Ming rejected his idea of becoming heir to Ming, yet actually wearing a cap that was symbolicly of that rejection. How would that be fitted into the explanation, if one presume Hideyoshi had this Superiority complex towards the Ming, then how was the second interpretation of his invasion may be incorporated into understanding of his motives and objectives regarding the war.


Edited by The Charioteer - 11-Jul-2006 at 22:05
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