"Moors" and southwestern Europe.

If Latinos would consider a mixed origin an insult, we should suicide

The problem with some "pure" people is that they believe "purity" is superiority, and that somehow mixed people only have "half" an heritage.

Indeed. That's the idea.

That DNA stuff shoudln't be taken seriously with respect to tracing religion. Jews arrived around the first century BC and had 15 centuries to mix with local population, and they did.

Originally posted by pebbles Originally posted by calvo In the regions that they conquered,  they rebuilt the Roman cities abandoned during the Germanic invasions and developed a flourishing civilization known as Al Andalus.     Which Germanic tribes invaded the Iberia peninsula ?

THe Visigoths, were Germanic and invaded the Iberian peninsula. 

Nope. Visigoths were Germans. Standard germans. The heritage of German words (and names) in Spanish was likely introduced by them. They weren't the only northern group that arrived to Spain but perhaps the most famous.

Originally posted by calvo The Moors conquered very much all of the Iberian Peninsula in the 7th century less the mountainous regions of the northern coast. They were a mixture of Arabs and Berbers; with the former being the ruling elite and the latter being the bulk of the army. In the regions that they conquered,  they rebuilt the Roman cities abandoned during the Germanic invasions, and developed a flourishing civilization known as Al Andalus. During the first 2 centuries, Moorish rule was relatively tolerant towards Christians and Jews; provided that they paid more taxes; which made many of them convert to Islam. In the population of Al Andalus, Arabs formed a very small minority; Berbers made up to 20% of the population, and the rest of the Muslim population were Muladies, Iberian converts to Islam. Of course there were also Christians living under Muslim rule (Morzárabes), and Jews. During the 10th century, a new wave of recently-converted Berbers arrived from North Africa and founded new dynasties. They were less tolerant than their Arab forebears and persecutions of Christians and Jews began, causing many of them to flee to the Christian-controlled north. The Christian kingdoms began to gain power and influence from then on; while the Muslim civilization started to decay. After forming a political alliance, the Christians reconquered little by little the territory occupied by the Muslims; until the last Muslim kingdom in Granada fell in 1492. After the Catholic reconquista, most of the Muslims converted to Christianity (many of them could have ancestors who were Catholic converts anyway). They were known as Moriscos. In the height of the inquistion, they either had to give up all their Muslim-influenced customs and try to blend in with the Christian community as much as possible; or they had to leave. Many of them were expelled in the early 1600. Regarding language, the official language of Al Andalus was Arabic ;  yet after the reconquista, Latin and Castillian Spanish was once again established as the de-facto language. Those who spoke Arabic as a first language had to learn Spanish fast, or face expulsion for being accused of a Morisco. Nevertheless, the Arabic legacy is very visible in the 4000-5000 Arabic loan words in modern Spanish. Castillian architecture is also strongly influenced by Islam. Many cathedrals in Andalucía and Aragon were converted from mosques. ---> Yes, but we cannot forget either that most moques were also converted from Visigothic temples, like the Mosque of Córdoba. Due to the inquistion mentality and the dictatorship of the Catholic Church in Spain that lasted until the death of Franco; many Spaniards have been brainwashed to deny and even to despise any Arabic influence in modern Spain. ---> I more than anything relate the Spanish repulsion about "the Moorish" as the result of centuries of prejudiced and Romantic ideas on the part of European Romantic writers who wanted to imagine an Oriental and exotic Spain opposed with other Northern European countries. I also think we must blame people that used "Moorish influence" in Spain as a way to look down on us like :"Africa starts in Pyrenees". In Franco's time, there as still said that "Moors and Spanish" were first cousins, so let me disagree. They do not realise that we are living off our Moorish heritage to a great extent; for the very fact that every year millions of tourists visit the Alhambra in Granada, the Great Mosque of Córdoba; and medieval cities such as Toledo famous for its "heritage of 3 cultures"!

I agree with most of the bulk of what you are saying, however I would like to clarify a few things about this matter off the top of my head:

-The perfectly different legal, economic and of social level regimes , if any political circumstances impelled to that, resulted in very bloody persecutions, like the one which took place ALREADY around the middle 9th century against Christians in Abdehrraman II's time.

-When Arabic was introduced in the Iberian peninsula, it had to coexist with the languages spoken by the different communities that inhabited Al-Andalus, namely: Romance, Hebrew, Berber and Hispano-arabic dialect (Mozarabe), which was not only used in the everyday communication but also in excelent literary expressions known as "zejeles". So even if the language of culture was Arabic, it was Mozarabe the most widely spoken all over.

-About living off our Moorish "legacy?": I think it's the other way round- in cities like Granada, everything that's Moorish is highlighted and pointed as main attraction, and there are Moorish things sold, say "Moorish things" that are not by any standard characteristic of Granada but rather of  the present North of Africa (not even Al-Andalus)  just for the sake of the exotism and to attract tourists' attention. Just like seeing Flamenco dressed dolls in Madrid or Mexican hats in the Ramblas of Barcelona.

Edited by Beatriz - 10-Jun-2009 at 16:03

Originally posted by pinguin Nope. Visigoths were Germans. Standard germans. The heritage of German words (and names) in Spanish was likely introduced by them. They weren't the only northern group that arrived to Spain but perhaps the most famous.

"Standard Germans"? What is that?

It's unconventional to call the Goths Norsemen or Vikings, but they were both Germanic, and there is no reason to separate between Germanic peoples in Scandinavia and those settled in continental Europe at this point in history. This is only logical, considering how all Germanic peoples had spread relatively recently from Scandinavia. You need go no further back than 1200 BC and you will not find any Germanic peoples outside of Scandinavia. The peoples living in what is today Germany still spoke Celtic languages.

Here can be seen the spread of Germanic tribes, from the heartland in southern Scandinavia in 750 BC, to their furthest extent in 1 AD (the green area):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png

The Goths themselves most likely migrated from southern Sweden to continental Europe around 200 AD, from there to the Black Sea and were then pushed west by the Huns in the later 4th century. Even today southern Sweden is called Gothland (Götaland) and off the eastern coast lies an island called Gotland, names that go back as far as recorded history. The Goths themselves referred to their ancestral homeland as "Scandza".

In other words, even though it would be highly unconventional to think of the Goths as Vikings or Norsemen, names usually associated with a much later age, to be pedantic the Visigoth kings of Iberia were remotely related to them. Still, we should keep Goths and Vikings as separate phenomenons in history.

To get back on topic; the Moorish conquest of Iberia, though unfortunate for the Visigoth royal dynasty, udoubtedly brought the civilization of the peninsule to previously unseen heights. Next to Byzantium Al-Andalus was the most advanced society in Europe for centuries, built on the heritage of the Roman and Persian empires as brought together by the Arab conquests and channelled into their realms (and beyond). To answer the question of the thread starter I would therefore advise against operating with a clear dividing line between a Muslim and Christian cultural sphere in the first place, on the contrary Al-Andalus should be considered a unique entity based on the fusing of several traditions; Muslim, Christian and Jewish, as well as Roman, Arab and Persian. Of course, during the heyday of Al-Andalus the political and cultural focus was mainly directed south and east, while as the Reconquista advanced Iberia was increasingly influenced by the other European kingdoms, but by this time the heritage of Al-Andalus was already an inherent part of Iberian culture, which the Iberians carried with them even after 1492.

Concerning the Visigoths, they were not displaced by the Moorish conquest. The royal dynasty lost everything, but many Gothic noblemen continued in their position and kept their lands, even after having fought the invaders. A famous example is the nobleman Theodemir, who was a great landowner around Murcia and despite opposing the Moors he had his possessions confirmed by a treaty after 711. Later on he visited the Caliph in Baghdad.


Edited by Reginmund - 11-Jun-2009 at 09:43

Originally posted by pinguin Visigoths weren't Vikings, of course, but German speakers that started to arrived to Spain earlier that norse raids even started. Theirs heritage can still be perceived not only in Spanish and Hispanic peoples appariences (some look nordics) but also in the language itself. Believe it or not words as Spanish sounding as the following are Germanic in origin: Bandido, Bandera, Banda, Guzman, Bernardo, and a thousand more.

Originally posted by Carcharodon The homeland of the Goths seems rather have been south of the Baltic sea. That they should have come from the relatively small island of Gotland is not likely. The archaeological record or other evidence doesn´t support this rather antiquated idea.

Has there been a theory claiming they were from Gotland? It seems far more reasonable to assume they were from southern Sweden, ie Gothland/Götaland, and then they migrated or extended their influence to the island nearby, so that it assumed a similar name.

Seeing as the Goths were Germanic it's impossible that they originated in their settlement in today's Poland, they must have emigrated from Scandinavia at some point, and seeing as their stamp is set on southern Sweden it seems most likely this was the area.

"Which Germanic tribes invaded the Iberia peninsula?" This question was asked some time ago, and no one seems to have adequately answered it! But, it was also mentioned numerous times in the previous postings the word "Al Andalus!" Now I do not know if the following information is now passe", but it seems to me that some adequate historians, etc., have for many years connected this word to the "VANDALS!"

Just look at any map which shows the alleged movements of people(s) across Europe during the time of the Vandals, Huns, and the various Goths, IE the "Visi" and the "Ost(r)!" were either ordered by historians or by book makers to give the reader a visual example of these events, and how these great movements affected other people(s)!

One might well notice that most all maping examples place all of these groups within a very close proximity.

The Vandals time within, what we now call Spain, is never, it seems closely examined or known! But, if the "Al Andalus!" connection is a correct one, then one must assume it was a fairly long stay?

Of course it is also said that said Vandals eventually made haste to cross the straight and proceeded to invade N. Africa! This, in its self denotes a well developed group, just because in some manner this group which, it seems had never shown any sea-fariing ability, suddenly found the resources to move an entire people across the ocean to another continent, and proceed to conquer a part of it, eventually creating a nation of their own! And, not only did they suceed in founding a great nation, they again became proficient in sea-faring or they were wealthy enough to hire ships from historical sea-faring nations to take them upon a sea-conquest of mighty proportions! To make a long story somewhat shorter, they suceeded in attacking Rome and sacking it!

Here is what Wikipedia has to say, if it is sufficient for most of you?

"The Vandals were an East Germanic tribe that entered the late Roman Empire during the 5th century. The Goth Theodoric the Great, king of the Ostrogoths and regent of the Visigoths, was allied by marriage with the Vandals as well as with the Burgundians and the Franks under Clovis I.

The Vandals are perhaps best known for their sack of Rome in 455."

So, if you believe Wiki, then it seems that the Vandals were both Germanic, and cousins of sorts with the Goths!

Here is one of those maps I mentioned earlier; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europa_Germanen_50_n_Chr.svg

And, here is another one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png

Interesting aren't they? One might also note that the Vandals seemed to have been co-anchored with the famous "Alans!"

And just where on our previous maps do we find the famous "Alans" or as they were also called the "Alani?" Did you find them? If not try this map? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Empire_125.svg Yes, there they are! On the Eastern side of the Black Sea! Wow! Perhaps you might well want to examine their reported history on your own?

But, at least we have some more Germanic influence within the area we today refer to a Spain!

Regards,