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Did Attila encounter racism while in Rome?

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  Quote feiying Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Attila encounter racism while in Rome?
    Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 07:21
Few people know this, but Attila was actually raised as a 'hostage child' in Rome.  As a child, he was exchanged with a Roman prince to each other's countries to ensure peace between Rome and the Huns.  No doubt Attila grew up in Rome.  He was not as nomadic as one might thought.  He knew the 'civilized' ways.  But, perhaps it is also the racism he encountered growing up amongst Romans that led him to a later path of anger, destruction and hate.
 
If you notice, many of his wives were Germanic.  He also requested a Roman princess's hand in marriage.
 
I know this type of feeling, because I am also an Oriental who grew up in a Western society.  We feel like we are acculurated enough but never totally assimilated because of racism issues.  We keep a secret anger inside our hearts forever.  We also highly desire to sleep with the 'forbidden fruit' (ie white women).
 
I CAN TOTALLY READ ATTILA'S MINDSET.  IF I WAS IN HIS SHOES, I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME!!!
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 11:56
I doubt it was 'racism' as we know it. The Romans weren't particularly racist (especially that late in history, whatever the case under the Republic). They might have considered him uncivilised or pagan, which are rather different concepts.

Edited by gcle2003 - 09-Mar-2009 at 11:58
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 12:13
Originally posted by feiying

Few people know this, but Attila was actually raised as a 'hostage child' in Rome.  As a child, he was exchanged with a Roman prince to each other's countries to ensure peace between Rome and the Huns.  No doubt Attila grew up in Rome.  He was not as nomadic as one might thought.  He knew the 'civilized' ways.  But, perhaps it is also the racism he encountered growing up amongst Romans that led him to a later path of anger, destruction and hate.
 
If you notice, many of his wives were Germanic.  He also requested a Roman princess's hand in marriage.
 
I know this type of feeling, because I am also an Oriental who grew up in a Western society.  We feel like we are acculurated enough but never totally assimilated because of racism issues.  We keep a secret anger inside our hearts forever.  We also highly desire to sleep with the 'forbidden fruit' (ie white women).
 
I CAN TOTALLY READ ATTILA'S MINDSET.  IF I WAS IN HIS SHOES, I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME!!!


You are projecting too much of yourself onto him. Attila did not act on emotional sentiment, on the contrary he was an intelligent and calculating warlord who merely did what Hun chieftains were supposed to do, albeit more successfully than his predecessors. This is why he raided the Roman Empire and why he sought after Roman and Germanic brides, not out of some childish "boohoo I was bullied so I'll bully them back"-mentality.
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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 13:07
Atilla probably faced as much rejection as any Barbarian hostage had ever done: be them of Germanic, Scythian, Persian, or whatever origin.
Roman sources commented on the "outlandish" features of many of the foreign peoples: from tall blond Germans to Iranian Sarmatians; who they described as "ugly" despite being predominantly Europoid.

During republican times, Rome society was extremely "classist" as regarding to one's status and bloodline (being of patrician stock); but I don't think these prejuidice were comparable to 19th century European racism.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 15:57
Feiyang, yeah! he sure did bring down the Facist Regime Big smile 

We also highly desire to sleep with the 'forbidden fruit' (ie white women).


One day my friend if you work on your charisma and skills of conversation you may achieve your grand goal LOL


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Mar-2009 at 15:59
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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 16:49
Originally posted by Bulldog

Feiyang, yeah! he sure did bring down the Facist Regime Big smile 

We also highly desire to sleep with the 'forbidden fruit' (ie white women).


One day my friend if you work on your charisma and skills of conversation you may achieve your grand goal LOL


Slightly off-topic here....
My general feeling is that women tend to be attracted to taller, broad-shouldered men as a general rule (a sign of masculinity); so when a taller population encounters a smaller one, the men of the former would have a starting advantage with the women of the latter.

Nevertheless, shorter and skinnier men could compensate for their physical shortcomings with other traits; such as self-confidence, security, sense of humour, and charisma. By the end of the day, women tend to be less "sexually excited" by a man's physical appearance than the other way around.
 
Personally I've known a handful of unbelievable cases; such as guy with a physical disability who manged to seduce dozens of extremely beautiful girls. He used his physical disability as an advantage to demonstrate his strength.

I also knew a short and ugly Filipino American in Madrid who dated the most beautiful Spanish girls.... he certainly had a great charisma despite he was neither tall, nor broad-shouldered.

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  Quote feiying Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 06:46
There some Germans with Haplogroup N.  Undoubtedly, the Hun males had spread their genes
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 07:06
There is not racism in women's or everybody else's preferences for some kind of people. People want to feel good and some kinds of physical constitutions are perceived as agreable, others as less agreable.

Racism begin when someone considers a group of people is incapable of great achievements or that your group should dominate or other group should be exterminated.

As for Attila, he lived in Ravenna in the period of decline of the Latin hemisphere of the empire, when Constantinople was capital and considered center of the world.

But anyway, if Attila had Mongoloid appeareance, I think Romans considered the ones not resembling them ugly, be they Northern blondes, black Africans, Middle Easterners (they were having a phobia for Jews and anything Oriental) and perhaps Far-Asians.

Edited by Menumorut - 10-Mar-2009 at 07:12

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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 08:03
Originally posted by Menumorut

There is not racism in women's or everybody else's preferences for some kind of people. People want to feel good and some kinds of physical constitutions are perceived as agreable, others as less agreable.


This is exactly what I was intending of saying. Women have a preference for taller and stronger men; although men lacking these traits could compensate these shortcommings with other qualities.

However, I have to admit that culture and education do play a role. The Spanish, for example, are still rather endogamic because up until 15 years ago there were no foreigners here, and Spaniards rarely travelled abroad; so anyone who doesn't look or sound Spanish is still regarded by many as "abnormal".

Among many Spaniards over the age of 30, especially women (who received a more repressive education) tend to have a taboo of dating non-Spaniards. I remember a summer afternoon when I went to a swimming pool with a group of friends. One girl was commenting on how "hot" a guy that had just got out of the pool. Nevertheless, once she heard that he spoke in a Colombian accent , she immediately lost interest. I joked at her saying that "Is the Colombian accent sound really so bad?"

On the other hand, the lack of exposure also forments curiosity and a fetish towards the "exotic"; and many foreigners actually manage to exploit this element to their own advantage.
For example, I knew a Filipino guy (who I mentioned before) and several Black Africans (from Senegal), and a handful of Cubans who were masters of seducing Spanish women; women who by default were only attracted to their own kind.
These examples prove that nothing is really impossible.

It is curious that among Spaniards older than 30, most intermarriages are between Spanish men and Latin American women. Nevertheless, among high-school kids now, many Spanish girls have a clear preference for Dominican, Ecuadorean, and Moroccan men for their more "masculine" attitude.
This proves that education does play a role.

As for me...., I'd date any woman that's good-looking, regardless of nationality, colour, or religion...; but I don't think I could date air-heads.


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  Quote Ardashir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 08:43
Originally posted by feiying

Few people know this, but Attila was actually raised as a 'hostage child' in Rome.  As a child, he was exchanged with a Roman prince to each other's countries to ensure peace between Rome and the Huns.  No doubt Attila grew up in Rome.  He was not as nomadic as one might thought.  He knew the 'civilized' ways.  But, perhaps it is also the racism he encountered growing up amongst Romans that led him to a later path of anger, destruction and hate.
 
If you notice, many of his wives were Germanic.  He also requested a Roman princess's hand in marriage.
 
I know this type of feeling, because I am also an Oriental who grew up in a Western society.  We feel like we are acculurated enough but never totally assimilated because of racism issues.  We keep a secret anger inside our hearts forever.  We also highly desire to sleep with the 'forbidden fruit' (ie white women).
 
I CAN TOTALLY READ ATTILA'S MINDSET.  IF I WAS IN HIS SHOES, I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME!!!
 
LOL, this is perhaps the most pathetic post I've ever read in this forum. An Oriental family (most prolly of Chinese descent I'd guess) have migrated to a Caucasoid society to enjoy a higher standard of living and to get rid of the oppressive Maoist rule, and after years of living among their hosts, now their son is filled with hatred and enmity , wishing to plan a genocide (like Attila the Hun) against the natives because of the apparently RACIST behavior of them against his ethnic/racial roots!!
 
My suggestion to our troubled friend is: i) visiting a psychiatrist and ii) leaving his RACIST host country and returing to whatever land his ancestors used to wonder. This way: i) he gets rid of his psychosis and ii) the world will be saved from having yet another Attila!
 
Shalom!
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 13:47
Attila definetely ecountered racism but I don't think it was about his appearance. Romans were more culture-racists believeing anyone that had not a Roman culture barbarian, much like Greeks before them.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 14:26
Originally posted by Vorian

Attila definetely ecountered racism but I don't think it was about his appearance. Romans were more culture-racists believeing anyone that had not a Roman culture barbarian, much like Greeks before them.
Then not racisim, but ethno-centrism.
 
And true again - Rome had quite a few non-Roman and even non-Italic Emperors and statesmen. If you weren't a citizen or lived under Roman influence long enough you were an outsider and thus looked down upon (not always either)
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 22:49
I recently discovered that there are many sites that are dedicated to people who believe that the united Hunnic invasion of europe was the beginning of a "race war" after the Alans were easily crushed by them.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2009 at 01:53
Originally posted by Penelope

I recently discovered that there are many sites that are dedicated to people who believe that the united Hunnic invasion of europe was the beginning of a "race war" after the Alans were easily crushed by them.
 
These are the typical Stormfront neo-nazi sites. These nutcases seem to be very active on the internet.
 
Recently, I've discovered something even more scary: they are web sites who claim to be political neutral blogs regarding anthropology; and at first site they do seem so, as they discuss human origins and genetic diversty through scientific lens; yet if you dig below the surface, you discover that they have a strong yet well-hidden racist agenda; and very often the information that they publish is distorted. I give you a few examples:
 
 
These sublime racialist give the creeps because they disguise themselves as serious scientists....
 
 
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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2009 at 03:25
Originally posted by calvo

 
 
 
a strong yet well-hidden racist agenda; and very often the information that they publish is distorted. I give you a few examples:
 
 
 
 
 
I've been skeptical of popularity of DNA on the net.It's a tool often abused to support racist agenda and one's leaning of relatedness between certain ethnicities.
 
 
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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2009 at 14:19
Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by calvo

 
a strong yet well-hidden racist agenda; and very often the information that they publish is distorted. I give you a few examples:
 
 
I've been skeptical of popularity of DNA on the net.It's a tool often abused to support racist agenda and one's leaning of relatedness between certain ethnicities.
 
DNA analysis is scientifically valid, but you have to be careful about the source into which you read up about it. In general, proyects such as the Genographic project are relatively safe because it involves the joint effort of genetists from universities all over the globe.
 
Another thing is that while there is a large amount of data, the conclusions drawn from them could be distinct; and you have to be very careful about their intepretations.
 
From what I've read on these sites; they often quote true DNA findings, yet they manipulate them to propagate the following agendas:
 
- human biological races do exist, and they not only differ in external appearance but also in intelligence, behaviour, and fundamental abilities.
- Europeans are more intelligent than Africans; and that Africans, native Americans, and Australians are incapable of bulding civilization out of their biological limitations.
- the mixing of races is hazadous to health and should not be encouraged
- humans instinctively prefer to socialize with those of their own "biological race", therefore interracial frienships are not "natural" and shouldn't be encouraged.
 
But it's only after you've read a number of "scientific" articles published on these sites, you'd begin to see their agenda.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2009 at 17:27
I believe there were stereotypes about groups of people asserting an inherent biological (and moral, intellectual, etc.) superiority to a group as opposed to others, most often was about Self (or Own Kind) vs the Other, in this case the barbarians were often what Romans were not. I also believe the characteristic was not bound to only one ethnic/cultural group, but there were persistent images surviving many centuries and applying to various Others.
 
For instance, Ammianus Marcellinus described the Huns being crooked and having monstruous forms, looking like two-legged beasts (prodigiosae formae et pandi, ut bipedes existimes bestias).
However, this is by no means a portrait only of the Huns, we have several such descriptions of ugly or monstruous barbarians, see for example Ovid's sub-human barbarians (vix sunt homines... and the adjective inhumanus often applied to them and their customs, appearance, etc.)
 
 
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2009 at 22:09
Originally posted by calvo

Originally posted by Penelope

I recently discovered that there are many sites that are dedicated to people who believe that the united Hunnic invasion of europe was the beginning of a "race war" after the Alans were easily crushed by them.
 
These are the typical Stormfront neo-nazi sites. These nutcases seem to be very active on the internet.
 
Recently, I've discovered something even more scary: they are web sites who claim to be political neutral blogs regarding anthropology; and at first site they do seem so, as they discuss human origins and genetic diversty through scientific lens; yet if you dig below the surface, you discover that they have a strong yet well-hidden racist agenda; and very often the information that they publish is distorted. I give you a few examples:
 
 
These sublime racialist give the creeps because they disguise themselves as serious scientists....
 
 
 
Indeed, very creepy.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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  Quote Hungo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 08:31
"But, perhaps it is also the racism he encountered growing up amongst Romans that led him to a later path of anger, destruction and hate."

No hate and no anger. He wanted to demolish the evil and barbaric roman empire, who slaved half of europe. He came to free the tribes of europe. Thats why 60kings and high ranked tribe leaders were serving Attila.  He wanted to put an end of this empire what was based on slavery and corruption. Its not an offense againts nowdays italians, but thast the truth. teh rooman empire was no good for europe. Before the roman empire started to grow, all european people were forming tribes, and libve that way. nobody thought about making empire and slave the people there..

…Attila, rex hunorum, medorum, gotorum et danorum…"

---Attila, king of huns, medians, goths, dans (danish , but it referred to nordic people)---


Edited by Hungo - 25-Mar-2009 at 08:35
Attila király katonája
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 09:54
Originally posted by Hungo

He wanted to demolish the evil and barbaric roman empire, who slaved half of europe. He came to free the tribes of europe. Thats why 60kings and high ranked tribe leaders were serving Attila.


Yes and no. Opinions on the Roman Empire as well as Attila differed. You find tribes aligning themselves with both. When things came to a head at Chalons You found Huns, Ostrogoths and Gepids on one side, Romans, Franks, Visigoths and Alans on the other.

That's not say the Roman Empire wasn't an exploitative institution. In Attila's time an average peasant in the Roman Empire got by on a subsistence minimum, and these were over 90% of the people, while less than 5% of the Roman population could reap the harvest of the empire's greatness and live the luxurious, civilized life we tend to associate with the Romans. (Source is Peter Heather's Fall of the Roman Empire).
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