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Why turks didn’t leave many signs of their culture in Greece?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why turks didn’t leave many signs of their culture in Greece?
    Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 06:43
There is no doubt that the Ottoman empire was a great
one and not just a slaughter for conquest. A question
that raised quite naturally to me is, why the period of
Turkish domination over the peninsula, which lasted
more than 400 years, is considered a static and
retrograded period? I mean, with a new conquest there
is a positive impact to the economy and the peninsula
was (is) as strategic point of military and trading
advantage. Why there are no ruins (except very few
temples) or cultural evidence of an empire? To be more
precise, take Sicily for example. There are evidence of
greek culture all over the island plus the very
beautiful city of Palermo is a jewel of Arab dominance
(831 DC) . I am not saying that there was no cultural
mixing and maybe there were big monuments that I ignore
or worse have been destroyed. I am open to any
correction or help , this is my first post here so
please be comprehensive.


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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 07:59

It's true that the ottomans left very few great monumnets in the balkans in General, especially in the places that they were not the majority of the population (that is in most places). They have left however many smaller monumnets, mainly fountains (they had a taste for water), many forts and a few (important) mosques.

One must remember that many of these monuments were destroyed after the Balkan countries regained their independance in 19th & 20th century.

 

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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 13:04
The Ottoman Empire sent some Turcomans living in Anatolia to their conquered provinces so that they would gain a strong foothold there.But as the Balkan nations regained their independence they started killing the Turks living there thus forcing them to migrate back to Turkey.Maybe they wanted to leave no trace of the Turks or maybe just because they wanted to build new buildings they destroyed the Ottoman structures.(the most recent one happened in Serbia about 8 months ago as some hooligans burnt down a 400 year old mosque.)
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 17:29

It's not true that the Ottomans built so few structures in the Balkans. The Ottomans always gave their primary importance to their Balkan provinces and Anatolia was always negleted because of this. However, as Yiannis said, a great percentage of these Ottoman landmarks were systematicially destroyed by the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, etc as to erase the marks of centuries of Ottoman rule.

The Ottomans didn't have any cultural policies (such as Turkifing non-Turks) because they cared only for just ruling lands and getting taxes from there. Besides, Muslim and Christian communities didn't get mixed with each other (every millet tried to avoid each other - even Gregorian and Protestant Armenians didn't marry with each other, for example). Christians converting to Islam for marriages were possible but they weren't actions that were liked by the communities.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 18:28

These balkan peoples also had strong serbian or greek or bulgarian pride, and did not and would not give up their own culture for a turkish one. And many non turks were turkemsized, how else to explain the huge population of turkey?

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 04:05
Actually Ottoman tactics isn't that bad at all they didn't actually destroy and try to change cultures instead they added their qualities to their own, structures that remain are mainly structures that were contructed before they took over the place, like hospitals or schools.. as these are treated as non-ottoman (I can give examples from ex-yugoslavia)
Maybe there are traces of the ottoman or the turkish culture in the balkan peoples but now they are so integrated that they are not easy to recognize..
Come to think of it there wouldnt be a greek, bulgar, serb, macedonian soul left or even any christian, ortodox or catholic in those places if the politics had been more different, but that is irrelevent, as the ottoman and turkish way is the neutral and respect for other cultures and religions.
Non-turks in turkey are not turk-ified, groups of different cultures of non-turkish origins armenians, greeks,cypriots,arabs,persians.... (the list is long..) co-exist peacefully and refer to themselves as turks, because they choose to, not because they are forced in anyway. Their fathers, forefathers were born, lived and died in turkey, amongst turks they are considered also as turks..only politics of other nations put these people into some role of minority which they never consider themselves as.
Its a strange thing for an outsider to understand, but let me give an example from religion. I have travelled to many countries and lived in many of them, but the only place I know that a Catholic,Ortodox, Jew, and a Muslim preacher,lecturer,imam whatever.. after sermon go to sit together in some cafe in peace to drink tea cofee and to talk,no endless arguments,just like friends..
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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 05:54
Turkey is the only country in the world where they named theyre children to different prophets nl Isa, Musa, Muhammed
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 09:54
Originally posted by strategos

how else to explain the huge population of turkey?

We are very horny

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 10:00
must be the "march of 10 years".. or something like that in english... " 15 million chidren in 10 years...." doesnt ryme in english.. but in turkish it does lol

talk about off topic ...
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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 00:24
Well, there was a war between the Greeks and Turks in the early 1920s.  The Greeks wanted to re-establish a state resembling the Byzantine Empire on both sides of the Aegean.  Instead, Mustafa Kemal transformed the Ottoman Empire into modern Turkey.  It wouldn't surprise me if the Greeks destroyed some of the evidence of Turkish rule in their country before it was all over.
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 13:30
Originally posted by Kenaney

Turkey is the only country in the world where they named theyre children to different prophets nl Isa, Musa, Muhammed
not true.


Originally posted by aknc

Originally posted by strategos

how else to explain the huge population of turkey?

We are very horny


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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 15:05

"Why turks didnt leave many signs of their culture in Greece?"

Bcuz most of them whas been bommed, destroyed after Ottoman empire had lost the war.

Do you wanna know a Turkish sign in youre culture? Listin to a local greek radio and if you can to a Turkish one. The melodys of the music are the same but language ofcourse differs.

Wanna know another sign?

Food:

Tsorbas = orba

Burek = brek

sarma = sarma

and i saw on TV even kebab lol

those are all Turkish signs in youre culture and country.



Edited by Kenaney
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 17:31

Kabab isnt originally a Turkish food. It is originated in ancient Babylonia, but the Turkish way of preparing kabab spread all over middle east, Anatolia, Balkans and even caucases.

And we share really much more words with Greeks that to mention all of them isnt possible here.

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  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2005 at 11:03

Well its generally considered turkish, kabab that is.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2005 at 16:09

"Why Turks havent left signs of their culture in Greece?"

Thats because they have no proper culture.They are simple nomads and you expect them to leave signs of "culture" next to wonderful pieces of Hellenic architecture?

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  Quote MegaloIdea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2005 at 04:07
true!MAybe the frink that they make out ov horse urine cen be cosidred culture??
Drive them back to asia!
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2005 at 04:22
Originally posted by Kenaney

?

Food:

Tsorbas = orba

Burek = brek

sarma = sarma

and i saw on TV even kebab lol

those are all Turkish signs in youre culture and country.

Of course don't be bothered by the fact that I have absolutelly no freaking idea what these words mean! (I've heard of Boureki, but don't think I've ever tasted it)

Kebak, which we call "Gyros" is shared by many countries in the wider area, I had some excelent ones in Iran.

Now tell me, which is more logical. That Turkish cuisine which is (now) mainly Meditteranean was influenced by the Greek/Byzantine one (same as Turkish music) or that the Greek one was influenced by the Turkish one. Don't tell me that grapes or olive trees grow in central Asia

 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2005 at 04:42
Originally posted by Kenaney

"Why turks didnt leave many signs of their culture in Greece?"

Bcuz most of them whas been bommed, destroyed after Ottoman empire had lost the war.

Do you wanna know a Turkish sign in youre culture? Listin to a local greek radio and if you can to a Turkish one. The melodys of the music are the same but language ofcourse differs.

Wanna know another sign?

Food:

Tsorbas = orba

Burek = brek

sarma = sarma

and i saw on TV even kebab lol

those are all Turkish signs in youre culture and country.



Why not post a simple list of 5 or 6 monuments built in Hellas by the Ottomans and I don't mean mosques and minarets.

Music, true we do find similarities, but what songs are you talking about??

Zeibekiko, Klarino, island songs, Bouzoukia in general?? Cause none of these are of Turkish orign.

In modern songs we can find similarities but I always believed that "tsifteteli"= belly dancing, was an Egyptian dance and that the influence was from there, sure we most probably adopted it from you but I think that the origin is what counts since you can't claim it as your's either.

Anyway songs with "Ethnic" rythms are common everywhere in the world from USA to China you can hear anything and everything.

Now about food.

Tsorbas: no idea what this is

Burek= not sure what the origin of the name is but we've been eating "pita" since ancient times.
We call various delicatessens wrapped in pastry sheets and baked "Bureki", if that is the same thing you're talking about or not I have no idea.

Sarma= I understand the name means "stuffed" in Turkish, so it probably means we got the name from you but as for it's origin, Yiannis covered that one.

Kebab= Now this is crazy. How can you claim to have "invented" Kebab???
The guy that invented the idea of Kebab is probably the same guy that decided to put freshly killed meat over a fire

That could have been anyone.
But since we have traces of the most ancient fire ever lit by human hands in the entire planet (1,000,000 B.C.).  at  Petralona Halkidiki. I suggest you hand Kebab over to us


Edited by Phallanx
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2005 at 12:49
Originally posted by The Hoplite

"Why Turks havent left signs of their culture in Greece?"

Thats because they have no proper culture.They are simple nomads and you expect them to leave signs of "culture" next to wonderful pieces of Hellenic architecture?

Yeah, and unfortunately, your populated, civilized (in your terms) ancestors werent enough skilled to avoid these bunch of nomads rule you for 600 years...

Originally posted by megalomania

true!MAybe the frink that they make out ov horse urine cen be cosidred culture??

How do you know it, maybe some of your grand ancestors have once somehow tasted it during the Ottoman reign, who knows? And to enlighten your darkness: "Kmz" isnt made from urine, it is made from horsemilk and alcohol.

Now tell me, which is more logical. That Turkish cuisine which is (now) mainly Meditteranean was influenced by the Greek/Byzantine one (same as Turkish music) or that the Greek one was influenced by the Turkish one. Don't tell me that grapes or olive trees grow in central Asia  

No, you are wrong. The Ottoman/Istanbul cuisine was heavily influenced with the Byzanthine civilization. But people always fail to differ the Ottoman dynasty and Istanbul from the Turks. The Turkish people of rest of the empire have never been influenced with Greek music or cuisine, because they even didnt have any ideas of what Byzanthine music was and what kind of music/cuisine did the elite Istanbul guys used to have.

And those grapes/olive trees grove in mostly Aegean, so not the rest of Anatolia. But it isnt a Hellenic culture to have olives in breakfast, if Japanese can conquer Anatolia sometime (i wish no), they would also have olives of their country in their breakfast.

Turks and Greeks share many cultural elements, words, lifestyles in common, but it is hard to differ this common culture as mostly Turkic or Greek originated things. We can make some generalizations by saying that food like seafood (fish, other ones) are Greek originated and food with heavy meat/pastry (manti, burek, tandir kabab, tsorbas etc.) are mostly Turkic originated. Of course, the influence of Turkish and Turks on the Greek language, kitchen, lifestyle would be heavier, but the influence of Greek/Greeks on Turkish architecture, cuisine, sea-kitchen would be heavier. This is very natural since both civilizations had their own elements and own properties of their pasts before they met.

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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2005 at 14:43
Originally posted by Phallanx


Why not post a simple list of 5 or 6 monuments built in Hellas by the Ottomans and I don't mean mosques and minarets.

Music, true we do find similarities, but what songs are you talking about??

Zeibekiko, Klarino, island songs, Bouzoukia in general?? Cause none of these are of Turkish orign.
  Zeibekko or Zeibekka or in Turkish Zeybek, we play that in our village in Turkey in every mariage of somebody.

In modern songs we can find similarities but I always believed that "tsifteteli"= belly dancing, was an Egyptian dance and that the influence was from there, sure we most probably adopted it from you but I think that the origin is what counts since you can't claim it as your's either.
Not in modern songs, the ones who based on guitar or saz instruments. And "tsifteteli" is iftetelli and is Turkish dans too, oh comon man if that whas arabic or Egyptian, then they would dance like us (two arms straight up, etc )  

Anyway songs with "Ethnic" rythms are common everywhere in the world from USA to China you can hear anything and everything.
yes in modern songs.

Now about food.

Tsorbas: no idea what this is
  Soop

[/QUOTE] Burek= not sure what the origin of the name is but we've been eating "pita" since ancient times.
We call various delicatessens wrapped in pastry sheets and baked "Bureki", if that is the same thing you're talking about or not I have no idea.[/QUOTE] Bureki is Turkish (brek). With pita i mean the one who was discovered by a Turkish "arbeider" in Germany in late 70's, its kebab called by Turkish. But "Pide" its a diferent thing (a food too).
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