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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Islam
    Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:39
Off the top of my head but I don't think Mormons believe Smith was a prophet, do they? He discovered the writings of the prophet Mormon.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:37
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

A ridiculous topic by a confused and complexed man about history of his country, but I must accept that the posts are funny


Funny it is indeed. Big smile
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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:13
Who was Muhammad, prophet?"
Since religion is so subjective it probably depends on your upbringing and theological training.
To Christians and Jews- No!!
To Hindus and Budist - No!!
To the animist- NO!!
To Muslims yes!!
to Universalist- maybe

It is there right to believe but at the same time questioning anyone's beliefs should not threaten them and is free speech. If someone is strong in a particular faith then they should be able to stand up to the criticism and not get bent out of shape. Criticism should only make them stronger in their faith. I have found some Christians do not like criticism and the same is true with any belief, religion or political views.

Now that you have included both Jesus and Muhammad why not Joseph Smith- was Joseph Smith a Prophet??

I am sure the Mormons here would love that!!
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by es_bih


The Prophet? I think you're mistaken. During the Prophet's time there were defensive wars fought yes. But, the conquest itself is the prodigy of the Caliphate. 
 
We could debate this ad nauseam -- actually, we have before, haven't we? Wink Suffice it to say that I maintain that the wars may only be considered defensive in the loosest sense of the word, and that if we take a very selective reading. Still, this is a legitimate point of debate. My original point, however, that the spread of Islam was expedited by the sword, defensive or not. Remember, I'm trying to clarify something I think we all to often speak carelessly about.
 
Here is the thing Ako, if there was that much pressure to convert, a lot of people in particular the uneducated peasantry would have converted en masse. That is what happens when there are pressures. The Levant and Egypt would have been nearly 80% Muslim within a generation if it were so. Fact still remains that up until the Crusades the Christians were a majority within the remnants of the Caliphate.
 
Well, first, I don't think anyone would assert that there wasn't any pressure to convert. If you would like to argue along those lines, I'd love to hear an explanation.
 
Second, pressured conversion need not be swift; indeed, it often is not. Keep in mind how persistent paganism was in the Roman empire. The various cults survived the Constantinian dispensation, the Theodosian edicts, etc., and didn't really become supressed outwardly until the middle of the sixth century. In the East, they continued in a severely marginalized, occasionally syncretic form well into the Medieval period. In the West, many persisted even later. Point being, history demonstrates that the conversion of an entire subject population through social and economic pressure is a gradual process.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 22-Jan-2009 at 20:00
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Posts: 379 		  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 19:30
A ridiculous topic by a confused and complexed man about history of his country, but I must accept that the posts are funny
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Posts: 1673 		  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:46
You finaly got the point
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:39
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders.

How dare you not name the dinosaurs? They were the proto-Persians. Name 'Darius' was originally 'Dariosaur'. 


I am mistaken forgive me. Yes. The Dinasours were also Proto-Iranic. Also Turks are long lost Proto-Iranic people so people here on AE with Turkic ancestry or heritage (quite a few of us here including myself and you Bey) we all should bow down to Dariosaurius the First. Infact Cyrus the First may have been not only a dinasour but the first cell crica. 3 billions years ago. True. All of life on Earth is Iranic due to Cyrus the one celled king of creation.

LOL
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:36

The Prophet? I think you're mistaken. During the Prophet's time there were defensive wars fought yes. But, the conquest itself is the prodigy of the Caliphate.
Here is the thing Ako, if there was that much pressure to convert, a lot of people in particular the uneducated peasantry would have converted en masse. That is what happens when there are pressures. The Levant and Egypt would have been nearly 80% Muslim within a generation if it were so. Fact still remains that up until the Crusades the Christians were a majority within the remnants of the Caliphate.







Edited by es_bih - 22-Jan-2009 at 20:28
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Posts: 1673 		  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:30
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders.

How dare you not name the dinosaurs? They were the proto-Persians. Name 'Darius' was originally 'Dariosaur'. 

I have been told they were created by Turks, God is Turk do not forget that fact. These are just Persian propaganda to reclaim Turkish historyBig smile (it is a joke for those who dont get it)


Edited by Suren - 23-Jan-2009 at 18:00
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:08
Originally posted by es_bih

Saying that Islam was spread by the sword when it took up to 4-5 centuries for a lot of regions to even have a Muslim majority is no other thing than retarded. I guess when you don't understand the whole scope of history, and focus on today rather than a careful study of a 1400 year period you get this idea if the vast majority are Muslim today that means they were so 1400 years ago as well. Again if there were "by the sword," not saying that there were not small and insignificant sporadic ones, but no large scale or centralized movements of any significance occurred. Egypt was majority Christian up until the Crusades, and so was almost most of the rest of the Middle East. Why? Because conversions were not stressed for one, nor sought out in the early period.
 
I think we are all often careless with words when we discuss this topic. There is some debate over whether or not Islam was spread by the sword more than any other absolutist religion. What cannot be denied, however, is that the influence of Islam was spread by the sword. The prophet and his followers, whether they forced people to convert or not, did spend a good deal of time bringing Arabia and (in the case of his followers) much of the known world into the Dar al-Islam, where there was financial and social pressure to convert. I think we often take a view of the situation that is too black and white.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 22-Jan-2009 at 18:09
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:58
Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders.

How dare you not name the dinosaurs? They were the proto-Persians. Name 'Darius' was originally 'Dariosaur'. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:17
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust
just or unjust, that is a fact.
 
remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems.
I think you are talking about clericalism: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/clericalism an undue influence of the hierarchy and clergy in public affairs and government, yes? Shia Muslims don't believe what Sunnis say about it but they say according to Quran (like 4:59) you should obey not only Allah and the prophet but also the clergy.
Anyway I myself think Sunnis are right on this issue but it just shows the influence of Mazdakism on Islam, you can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdakism One of the principles of Mazdakism was "anti-clericalism".
 
It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself.It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
The same as Mazdakism.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
If you know please mention one thing in Islam which was unrelated to the Persian religions or other pre-Islam religions, we can discuss about it.


Yes Cyrus. The Iranians have not only created the World and the Stars, but also everything that ever had any historical ramifications. Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders. The rest are just put there to undermine Iran's achievements to the Galaxy.

Star
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:14
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust, remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems. It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself. It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
 
 
Al-Jassas
 
PS: the passage from the Quran above, it has a story behind it, read it carefully and you will understand it.
 


Well I guess if the Prophet had been Iranian he'd be jumping hoops about him ShockedLOLWinkEmbarrassed
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I want really to know the self created religion of this illiterate man which was just a heterogeneous mixture of Christianity, Judaism and pagan religions such as Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism, could be a divine religion?!!

IMHO, there is no such thing. Just cult leaders, petty ones and larger-than-life ones.

The really good ones are able to do just what you describe: they take bits and pieces and build a brand new model. Like a car manufacturer. They use succesful things from earlier designs, add a few new twists, and come out with a shiny new religion. The petty ones just mimic the great ones in a watered-down sort of way, and are quickly forgotten.

The really great ones are very rare, because it requires a very unique combination of talents. They have to be brilliant, true geniuses, in order to create a very appealing religious system which can mesmerize people, and they have to be extremely charismatic to get it off the ground. Genius and charisma tend to be a rare combination, all the more so when both qualities are taken to such extreme heights. Figures like this were probably like a cross between Einstein and Kennedy (or, perhaps to be more current, Obama and Stephen Hawking).

You get a combination like that and they're going to do something incredible ... really transform the world, shake it to its roots ... even though I don't consider them to have been talking directly to God, I can definately understand how such a person could give that impression. It would very much seem that way if you were to meet someone like that in person. Some of them probably posed as gods, themselves.

Islam had absolutely nothing new to say and there was no way to spread this religion without sword, of course there were some people around Muhammad like some Persian Mazdakists who were really genuine, they had to satisfy this man who was accepted as a prophet among Arabs!
 
[Quran, 33:50] O prophet! We have made lawful to you any believing woman (married or not) who dedicates her soul to the prophet; this only for you, and not for the believers. We know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess; in order that there should be no difficulty for you. And Allah is oft-forgiving most merciful.
 
 


Saying that Islam was spread by the sword when it took up to 4-5 centuries for a lot of regions to even have a Muslim majority is no other thing than retarded. I guess when you don't understand the whole scope of history, and focus on today rather than a careful study of a 1400 year period you get this idea if the vast majority are Muslim today that means they were so 1400 years ago as well. Again if there were "by the sword," not saying that there were not small and insignificant sporadic ones, but no large scale or centralized movements of any significance occurred. Egypt was majority Christian up until the Crusades, and so was almost most of the rest of the Middle East. Why? Because conversions were not stressed for one, nor sought out in the early period.

I know you have your gripes with Iran's current form of government, and also some disillusion about your own place in there, but that doesn't warrant speaking nonsense for no reason either.

There is always an option of emigration.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust
just or unjust, that is a fact.
 
remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems.
I think you are talking about clericalism: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/clericalism an undue influence of the hierarchy and clergy in public affairs and government, yes? Shia Muslims don't believe what Sunnis say about it but they say according to Quran (like 4:59) you should obey not only Allah and the prophet but also the clergy.
Anyway I myself think Sunnis are right on this issue but it just shows the influence of Mazdakism on Islam, you can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdakism One of the principles of Mazdakism was "anti-clericalism".
 
It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself.It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
The same as Mazdakism.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
If you know please mention one thing in Islam which was unrelated to the Persian religions or other pre-Islam religions, we can discuss about it.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 22-Jan-2009 at 17:01
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:57
How does Science undermine religions credibility?
Islam enourages the Sciences and Learning, something unfortunately alot of the muslim world has forgotten.


Edited by Bulldog - 22-Jan-2009 at 15:11
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:34
If your point, Cyrus, is that Islam was a construct based on already existing doctrines and not something handed down from a god, then any rational person would agree with you. This is true for all religions though, Zoroastrianism too. Religion however will endure regardless of how scientific advances may undermine its credibility, as science cannot counteract man's fear of non-existence or his need to believe there is universal and absolute justice.

Originally posted by Suren

Sassanids are back better watch yourselfWink


Where? Iran's present government is an insult to Persian history and culture.
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:29
Marvelous! He's back with more subterfuge and blood to spill. Cyrus are you ever satisfied and do you actually think we care about your misinformation?  We do get tired of correcting your rubbish you know.
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:29
Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust, remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems. It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself. It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
 
 
Al-Jassas
 
PS: the passage from the Quran above, it has a story behind it, read it carefully and you will understand it.
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:08
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I want really to know the self created religion of this illiterate man which was just a heterogeneous mixture of Christianity, Judaism and pagan religions such as Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism, could be a divine religion?!!

IMHO, there is no such thing. Just cult leaders, petty ones and larger-than-life ones.

The really good ones are able to do just what you describe: they take bits and pieces and build a brand new model. Like a car manufacturer. They use succesful things from earlier designs, add a few new twists, and come out with a shiny new religion. The petty ones just mimic the great ones in a watered-down sort of way, and are quickly forgotten.

The really great ones are very rare, because it requires a very unique combination of talents. They have to be brilliant, true geniuses, in order to create a very appealing religious system which can mesmerize people, and they have to be extremely charismatic to get it off the ground. Genius and charisma tend to be a rare combination, all the more so when both qualities are taken to such extreme heights. Figures like this were probably like a cross between Einstein and Kennedy (or, perhaps to be more current, Obama and Stephen Hawking).

You get a combination like that and they're going to do something incredible ... really transform the world, shake it to its roots ... even though I don't consider them to have been talking directly to God, I can definately understand how such a person could give that impression. It would very much seem that way if you were to meet someone like that in person. Some of them probably posed as gods, themselves.

Islam had absolutely nothing new to say and there was no way to spread this relgion without sword, of course there were some people around Muhammad like some Persian Mazdakists who were really genuine, they had to satisfy this man who was accepted as a prophet among Arabs!
 
[Quran, 33:50] O prophet! We have made lawful to you any believing woman (married or not) who dedicates her soul to the prophet; this only for you, and not for the believers. We know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess; in order that there should be no difficulty for you. And Allah is oft-forgiving most merciful.
 
 
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