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"Beating" up on Israel?
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    Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 02:04
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Regarding the 'staging' of photographs that you claim is occurring Menumorut, I pose the following question: Are you proposing that young children are, on their own accord, posing in front of moving military vehicles pelting them with rocks in order to draw media attention to the political oppression of the Palestinian people? This seems unlikely.

It is indeed possible that photographers are coaxing youngsters to repeat the behaviour in order to get that shot, but this is most likely a pre-established behaviour rather than a unique creation of the photographer's imagination.

Regarding the primary topic of conversation I wish to ask Kevin what exactly he is asking in the original post. Are you curious about the uneducated criticism that seems popular or the phenomenon of targeting Israel for criticism in general? Do you think that it is unjust, or simply interesting?


To answer your question Zaitsev, all mix of all the above. 
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Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Ok I really don't have time to argue any more on this argument Hamas is a terroist organization so they need to be wiped out. I am siding with Israel because Hamas is a Terrorist organziation. Now with Palestinians I beleive they have every right to have their own state alongside Israel. Hamas is a blight on Islamic society and like Al-Quada gives Islam a bad rep to many Americans and other people worldwide. So I couldn't care who was at war with Hamas as long as Hamas is utterly destroyed.


Gah... As I've said before, lets bring on the apocolypse and get it over and done with.

What will the extermination of Hamas really mean? Surely some other, likely more radical group will simply take its place? Or perhaps we should just exterminate the entire Palestinian population so as these 'pernicious' organisations can't ever take hold?

You can't fight ideas out of the barrel of a gun. All your way of thinking will do is bring along a Nuclear holocaust some way down the road.

Something important that gets lost in all of this is that Hamas, no matter how unsavoury an organisation, is the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people and it is from them that they derive their authority and more importantly their legitimacy. If people aren't prepared to recognise this simple fundamental in a debate we might as well commit mass suicide now and give up on humanity altogether.


Edited by Parnell - 03-Jan-2009 at 02:57
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 06:51
Originally posted by King John

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Parnell

I think its a trend amongst 17-21 year olds who think they know a thing or two. Especially popular amongst those people who see 'movements' in everything. Personally, I have a real ugly disdain for politics in general, and for partisans who see the work of the 'other side' in everything. War is hell, and it is politics and the left/right divisions which perpetuate it.

Everything in this world revolves around who holds the moral high ground. Soon, the self-righteous ramblings of a supposedly 'correct' radical becomes the word of God and any who disagrees with him is a moron, a racist, an imperialist, an inferior mind.

Its an ugly circle but won't change anytime soon. Its humanity itself.


Actually it is not a trend at all, because intellectuals and non-activists alike agree on the issue. Yes it may be a rebellious trend to some, but that is a minuscule minority.

Some of your observations are right, but that is overall too cynical as at the end of the day these criticisms of Israel as a government are correct and documented for over fifty years. Thus no matter the "larger picture" in the world context of things when considered at its local level there are grave injustices that are ongoing and that are the cause and root of the conflict - thus perpetuating them of course begets negative effects from the other side, and in the context of this thread begets this "bashing of Israel, the government" due to the actions that they choose not to cease. I think there has been enough material posted to deduce that just in the two threads on this topic.


But when you only "bash" one side and never the other, it becomes a political ideology.  Political ideologies come in the form of trends.  It is the current trend to "bash" Israel.  Look, you can criticize Israel all you want; but you should also be able to criticize the other side.  When a person does this it gives their criticisms credibility because they are being objective and showing that they are thinking with a clear mind and really taking in the situation.  If you can't criticize the other side then, I would say, you don't fully understand the situation.  To see a situation like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as black and white is an oversimplification of the situation.  By the way all the coverage I have seen on US Media places Palestinian stories first and Israeli stories second.  An example of this would be CNN, on this channel one gets reporting like 400+ PALESTINAINS DEAD... ...Palestinians are still launching missiles.  This is hardly coverage skewed towards Israel, the first thing is always Palestinians being invaded and killed followed by a small parenthetical aside about Israel still being attacked.  I would say coverage in this manner shows the trend about which Parnell has spoken.


When the Palestinians come and steal Israeli land and keep them in tents for 60 years then they will be on an even footing for even handed critiquing. Until then obviously you can as Omar well put, critique what is wrong, and unfortunately the Israeli sides actions outweigh the Palestinian ones at the moment.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 06:55
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Parnell is right. You don't have to believe what he says and not have a opinion on the matter. But if you run his train of thought, you may not be as biased to the point as having a Stars Wars mentality where there's one grand scheme to wipe out everything good another that is pure good and a under dog.
 
It's aggrevating getting into discussions with people that just keep going in circles and believe in things that only account for one idea even if the motives don't exactly help the interests of that party.
 
Let me just say, I may be the above case also, not saying I'm always in the right or even at all. But it's something I feel. I don't like Israel, but I could see alot strategic ideas on why the conflict could be played out, why other nations have motives in the area rather then something like a grand "Zionist Conspiracy".
 
Actually dis-attaching yourself in that manner and becoming too cynical has helped the non action of millions with the murder of over 6 million people. Thus these over simplifications do do damage. At least disagreeing and trying to show wrong in something creates debate.


 
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was advocating the type of apathy that has allowed this situation to get worse over the past several decades. In fact I think this apathy is a natural result of the angry propaganda that often permeates the discussion. If I get accused of being a militant supporter or sympathizer of Israel every time I try to argue for making a more objective analysis of the situation, of course it turns me off to the debate, precisely because I recognize that nothing substantive can be accomplished or resolved in such a dynamic. I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the discussion of the conflict on this forum has not been productive.
 
-Akolouthos

I am speaking in generalities here seeing a few commonalities arise form this step back approach to these scenarios... the same thing got millions killed in Africa, taking out the morality issues out of it and just cynically viewing it as the " world still hasn't changed." Well that may be so, but that doesn't mean that we should not complain and do everything we can to change the reality that is very much like hell for those people into something more worthy of a human being. Darfur, Palestine, etc... Bosnia experienced thousands of deaths and massacres before Clinton decided to act, and even by then it was late for much of the populace... sometimes stepping back does more harm than good is all I am saying.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 07:17
Originally posted by King John

But when you only "bash" one side and never the other, it becomes a political ideology.  Political ideologies come in the form of trends.  It is the current trend to "bash" Israel.  Look, you can criticize Israel all you want; but you should also be able to criticize the other side.  When a person does this it gives their criticisms credibility because they are being objective and showing that they are thinking with a clear mind and really taking in the situation.  If you can't criticize the other side then, I would say, you don't fully understand the situation.  To see a situation like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as black and white is an oversimplification of the situation.  By the way all the coverage I have seen on US Media places Palestinian stories first and Israeli stories second.  An example of this would be CNN, on this channel one gets reporting like 400+ PALESTINAINS DEAD... ...Palestinians are still launching missiles.  This is hardly coverage skewed towards Israel, the first thing is always Palestinians being invaded and killed followed by a small parenthetical aside about Israel still being attacked.  I would say coverage in this manner shows the trend about which Parnell has spoken.


This doesn't really represent bias at all. It is just a simple fact that 400 Palestinians, mostly civilians, dying is a far more important and unfortunate reality than the firing of missiles that have killed only two persons at last check. To report them with equal importance would be similar to saying "Our top story today -  a gorgeous white girl dies in a car accident. In foreign news Africa is dead." Perhaps I exaggerate, but the juxtaposition emphasises that, while rockets are bad news, they really represent a small threat to life in Israel. The constant destruction of infrastructure, government and life in general in Palestine, however, is a grave human rights issue.


Edited by Zaitsev - 03-Jan-2009 at 07:18
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 17:21
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Parnell is right. You don't have to believe what he says and not have a opinion on the matter. But if you run his train of thought, you may not be as biased to the point as having a Stars Wars mentality where there's one grand scheme to wipe out everything good another that is pure good and a under dog.
 
It's aggrevating getting into discussions with people that just keep going in circles and believe in things that only account for one idea even if the motives don't exactly help the interests of that party.
 
Let me just say, I may be the above case also, not saying I'm always in the right or even at all. But it's something I feel. I don't like Israel, but I could see alot strategic ideas on why the conflict could be played out, why other nations have motives in the area rather then something like a grand "Zionist Conspiracy".
 
Actually dis-attaching yourself in that manner and becoming too cynical has helped the non action of millions with the murder of over 6 million people. Thus these over simplifications do do damage. At least disagreeing and trying to show wrong in something creates debate.


 
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was advocating the type of apathy that has allowed this situation to get worse over the past several decades. In fact I think this apathy is a natural result of the angry propaganda that often permeates the discussion. If I get accused of being a militant supporter or sympathizer of Israel every time I try to argue for making a more objective analysis of the situation, of course it turns me off to the debate, precisely because I recognize that nothing substantive can be accomplished or resolved in such a dynamic. I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the discussion of the conflict on this forum has not been productive.
 
-Akolouthos

I am speaking in generalities here seeing a few commonalities arise form this step back approach to these scenarios... the same thing got millions killed in Africa, taking out the morality issues out of it and just cynically viewing it as the " world still hasn't changed." Well that may be so, but that doesn't mean that we should not complain and do everything we can to change the reality that is very much like hell for those people into something more worthy of a human being. Darfur, Palestine, etc... Bosnia experienced thousands of deaths and massacres before Clinton decided to act, and even by then it was late for much of the populace... sometimes stepping back does more harm than good is all I am saying.


 
I understand. I guess what I am more concerned about is an undercurrent of disingenuousness that seems to run through these discussions. I generally avoid talking to people who are simply trying to spread propaganda, and the Lord knows we have enough of them on the forum, and specifically in the other thread dealing with this topic.
 
That said, I think you and I might be a bit closer than it would appear at first glance. The disconnect, I think, is that you would like to start the discussion beyond what I view as an essential first step. I require that anyone with whom I plan on discussing the topic be able to look at both Hamas and Israel, and to admit that they have both committed reprehensible actions; one might consider it a demand for a demonstration of intellectual good faith. I'm simply not interested in talking to people who would have the Israelis sit back while their homes were shelled, any more than I am interested in talking to people who see no problem with the Israelis blockading Palestinian towns with the wall. I'm not interested in hearing people complain about one side of the issue if they won't also point out the flaws of the other party. Quite frankly, until Hamas clearly acknowledges Israel's right to exist, I don't see how there will ever be any peace. And until Israel removes the remaining settlements and demolishes those sections of wall which cut Palestinians off from food and water, there will likewise be resentment.
 
I generally don't talk about the issue on this website, because the conversation -- I think you would agree -- has been largely childish and uninformed thus far. If I hear one more forum member who sounds like an official spokesman for one of the combatant groups, I'm going to scream.
 
-Akolouthos
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Hello to you all
 
I forgot about this thread so here is my catch up.
 
First, I am with truth when ever I see it, in the summer war of 2006 I saw that Israel was fully justified in its response though it committed some war crimes that the world ignored and should have been investigated and procecuted.
 
On the other this situation Israel was the one that began by first not fullfilling its obligations and then continuing to kill innocent Palestinians. I provided the link in the post so search for them.
 
Second, criticising Israel doesn't mean anti-semitism or being anti Jewish, I have nothing but respect for jews in general as human beings. On the other hand I have nothing but contempt to war criminals and those who defend them, jews, muslims or whatever they may be. Many jews across the world and within Israel rallied to the support of the Palestinian cause well before I was born and many in the current leadership were born. The harshest of "bashing" that Israel got came from inside Israel either by some Israeli media or individuals.
 
Anyways my opinion has always been violence only brings more violence. Israeli leaders are paranoid, they see the fire crackers Hamas throws at them as precursors to the next holocaust. They forget that when Israelis first withdrew from Ariha (Jericho) and Ramallah in 93-94, Palestinians greeted Israeli soldiers in the streets and gave them flowers. So much good will was thrown away by a groups of extremists, on both sides, that it may never get back.
 
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I don't want to say much or debate on this. Just to say that my thoughts are with the Palestinians and hope that this new ordeal ends soon in the best possible way for them. Gaza and West Bank are modern day huge concentration camps where people are denied their very basic civil liberties.
 
I travel often to Israel and have many Israeli friends so I have to say that they're wonderful and warm people in general, as all people are. It's not the people, it's their government that turns Israel into a terrorist state. A country cannot be built on blood and hate or it will end up in tears.
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Posts: 1423 		  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 17:44
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Regarding the 'staging' of photographs that you claim is occurring Menumorut, I pose the following question: Are you proposing that young children are, on their own accord, posing in front of moving military vehicles pelting them with rocks in order to draw media attention to the political oppression of the Palestinian people? This seems unlikely.It is indeed possible that photographers are coaxing youngsters to repeat the behaviour in order to get that shot, but this is most likely a pre-established behaviour rather than a unique creation of the photographer's imagination.


Yes, children are doing that, either they are determined by adults do to that in some specific moments or they do from their own initiative. As you may know, Hamas indoctrinates children by television programs (type in Youtube "hamas indoctrination") to combat Israel so their conscience in this way is very strong sin ce very little.


I don't say the Western photographers are part of these stagings, they want to be objective, with the exception of Palestinian media which deliberately manipulates.

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bah

Edited by Parnell - 04-Jan-2009 at 19:32
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Posts: 767 		  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 21:13
Originally posted by Parnell

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Ok I really don't have time to argue any more on this argument Hamas is a terroist organization so they need to be wiped out. I am siding with Israel because Hamas is a Terrorist organziation. Now with Palestinians I beleive they have every right to have their own state alongside Israel. Hamas is a blight on Islamic society and like Al-Quada gives Islam a bad rep to many Americans and other people worldwide. So I couldn't care who was at war with Hamas as long as Hamas is utterly destroyed.


Gah... As I've said before, lets bring on the apocolypse and get it over and done with.

What will the extermination of Hamas really mean? Surely some other, likely more radical group will simply take its place? Or perhaps we should just exterminate the entire Palestinian population so as these 'pernicious' organisations can't ever take hold?

You can't fight ideas out of the barrel of a gun. All your way of thinking will do is bring along a Nuclear holocaust some way down the road.

Something important that gets lost in all of this is that Hamas, no matter how unsavoury an organisation, is the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people and it is from them that they derive their authority and more importantly their legitimacy. If people aren't prepared to recognise this simple fundamental in a debate we might as well commit mass suicide now and give up on humanity altogether.


To answer your question Parnell,

I think the Israeli's see to gain by damaging Hama's as much as possible, the prospect of the more moderate Fatah, achieving political hegemony in the Palestinian territories as to at least reduce the threat to Israel some and perhaps move forward in the peace process with talks with Fatah.   


Edited by Kevin - 04-Jan-2009 at 21:14
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Fatah has no democratic mandate. Progress should begin an end with this principle. Any Fatah government that emerges from these ashes will be nothing more than a puppet with no real legitimacy, and undoubtedly will simply make Hamas stronger. As I said, if someone wants to wipe out Hamas by force, the only way they can achieve that is to wipe out the entire Palestinian population.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 12:19
Originally posted by Menumorut

Yes, children are doing that, either they are determined by adults do to that in some specific moments or they do from their own initiative. As you may know, Hamas indoctrinates children by television programs (type in Youtube "hamas indoctrination") to combat Israel so their conscience in this way is very strong sin ce very little.


First off, youtube is not considered a reliable academic source by pre-school standards. Secondly, I think you would find it quite tricky to train children to spontaneously throw rocks at armoured military vehicles at the first sign of a camera. To argue they would do so on their own initiative is simply ludicrous. They simply do not possess the deductive capabilities or world knowledge to determine political fallout of dramatic photography, nor the symbolism of such an action.

I don't say the Western photographers are part of these stagings, they want to be objective, with the exception of Palestinian media which deliberately manipulates.


This is, again, quite untrue. Western photographers do NOT want to be objective, they want to be paid. As evidenced by recent Reuters photoshop incidents, 'objectivism' can be flexible.
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Originally posted by Kevin

I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the trend in many Western societies where it seems "cool" to gang on Israel in terms of political and intellectual discussion and discourse, I've noticed more recently in the United States also. This trend seems to be popular especially, among young people such as around my age, and among people who are left-leaning in their politics. Among the young I've noticed that in many of the Facebook statuses of the past couple of days after the Israeli strikes in Gaza, that many of them had in their statuses such things like " Omg Israel is killing hundreds of innocent Palestinians over some rockets being fired". Or "Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you", "Long live Hamas" or "Long live Palestine" just to give examples. It seems that most young people just like in their support of many other progressive or left-wing causes, have no idea what they are talking about, and in this case have no idea how complicated the politics of the Middle East are, especially the Israeli-Arab/Palestinian conflict in my opinion. Among those with with left-wing politics it seems that the epicenter of modern day anti-semitism has shifted from the far-right to the far-left.

Keep in mind, I'm just merely posting what I've seen in society on this issue more recently.                    


It's popular among many of us whom have a conscience and can not simply turn a blind eye to human suffering en masse; or much worse, attempt to justify it in the most irrelevant, dispicable and repetitive way. 

You can rest assured though, whatever the prevalent attitude is among the West's  population or sections thereof, its governing institutions will never beat up on Israel.  I guarantee it.  So don't worry there is no threat to the wanton or extremist agenda of that bastion of freedom and democracy that is Zionist Israel.
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Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by Menumorut



The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs.


Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).


Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.
 
Hugo I worked on Picture Post before its demise, and I was Art Editor of the Sunday Telegraph for five years. That picture was posed.
 
I take no sides on the general issue because I have no patience with either the Israelis or the Palestinians, but I know a posed picture when I see one.
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Originally posted by Parnell

Thats a little silly. The suicide bomb has long since become a military tactic. In fairness, in the world of modern warfare when ak47s are being wielded against tanks, the suicide bomb is a highly potent weapon. Not justifying it or anything but its a little more complicated than regarding it as some simple act of cowardice.
A suicide bomber blowing up a military depot is one thing. A suicide bomber blowing himself up in a crowded bus is another.
 
And getting teenage girls to become suicide bombers is something else again.
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Ako what you said is exactly what I feel. So I repeat it.
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos

[
That said, I think you and I might be a bit closer than it would appear at first glance. The disconnect, I think, is that you would like to start the discussion beyond what I view as an essential first step. I require that anyone with whom I plan on discussing the topic be able to look at both Hamas and Israel, and to admit that they have both committed reprehensible actions; one might consider it a demand for a demonstration of intellectual good faith. I'm simply not interested in talking to people who would have the Israelis sit back while their homes were shelled, any more than I am interested in talking to people who see no problem with the Israelis blockading Palestinian towns with the wall. I'm not interested in hearing people complain about one side of the issue if they won't also point out the flaws of the other party. Quite frankly, until Hamas clearly acknowledges Israel's right to exist, I don't see how there will ever be any peace. And until Israel removes the remaining settlements and demolishes those sections of wall which cut Palestinians off from food and water, there will likewise be resentment.
 
I generally don't talk about the issue on this website, because the conversation -- I think you would agree -- has been largely childish and uninformed thus far. If I hear one more forum member who sounds like an official spokesman for one of the combatant groups, I'm going to scream.
 
-Akolouthos
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 01:47
Originally posted by gcle2003

SPAM


Clap

Originally posted by Code of Conduct

VII. B. 2. Spam: Spam is defined as irrelevant, wrongly placed, or redundant messages posted for attention in the Forum or sent via PM as unsolicited mail. Spam will be deleted from the forum, and constitutes a violation of use. Posting under multiple user-names by an individual member is also considered as spamming.


It could have all been in one post, or two at the most.


Edited by Zaitsev - 12-Jan-2009 at 01:52
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As was fairly obvious to the normal person I accidentally sent two empty messages, just quoting someone else without replying. I also sent the two messages with replies. I've now deleted the two empty ones, which I hadn't seen before, and agree of course that they were redundant.
 
Spam has to be deliberate. Redundant messages include childish ones berating someone for pressing the wrong button twice, in an attempt to be 'clever'.


Edited by gcle2003 - 12-Jan-2009 at 16:37
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Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by Menumorut

The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs. Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).
Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.

 

Hugo I worked on Picture Post before its demise, and I was Art Editor of the Sunday Telegraph for five years. That picture was posed.

 

I take no sides on the general issue because I have no patience with either the Israelis or the Palestinians, but I know a posed picture when I see one.


I stand corrected
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