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Husaria
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Topic: Macedonian-Greek argument? Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 21:29 |
So whats it all about? I got a bunch of Macedonian friends that dislike and argue with Greeks alot but i have no clue what the argument is exactly. I know this is a touchy subject so please be respectful about both sides of it, no bias.
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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
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Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 21:31 |
Moved to the minefield.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 01:00 |
I wish a good fight, at least, as good as what greeks doing in greece.
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 03:38 |
Basically, after the disintegration of Yugoslavia, one of the breakaway republics took the name "Macedonia", which also happens to be the name of a historical region in Greece. The Greeks responded by naming the new country "FYROM", or "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (I believe this is what the acronymn stands for). The dispute is over whether or not, and to what degree, a people has the right to self identify when its self identification appears to infringe upon the cultural heritage of another people. The Greeks also claim to fear that the name of the country is part of a plan to claim rights over the Greek province -- which appears to be unlikely, but is not out of the question. This is the dispute, as I understand it, in a nutshell.
-Akolouthos
Edited by Akolouthos - 18-Dec-2008 at 03:38
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Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 04:08 |
Originally posted by Akolouthos
Basically, after the disintegration of Yugoslavia, one of the breakaway republics took the name "Macedonia", which also happens to be the name of a historical region in Greece. The Greeks responded by naming the new country "FYROM", or "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (I believe this is what the acronymn stands for). The dispute is over whether or not, and to what degree, a people has the right to self identify when its self identification appears to infringe upon the cultural heritage of another people. The Greeks also claim to fear that the name of the country is part of a plan to claim rights over the Greek province -- which appears to be unlikely, but is not out of the question. This is the dispute, as I understand it, in a nutshell.
-Akolouthos |
That is the gist of it I believe.
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Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 04:13 |
Also before a discussion starts on the issue by our forum community a quick reminder that the modding staff does allow since relatively recently formerly blacklisted topic to discussed. However, we will heavily mod the discussion for purpose of no flame-war insinuation.
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Husaria
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Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 04:39 |
Thanks for the summary Akolouthos.
Edited by Husaria - 18-Dec-2008 at 05:24
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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
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Suren
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Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 05:03 |
I understand Greek fellows' feeling over this issue, but seriously if Alex was from Sparta or somewhere else (not Macedonia) do they still have this harsh reaction toward Macedonians? Calling them FYROM when they call themselves Macedonian and their country Macedonia is not nice even if they want to create history from the thin air. Greek fellows listen to this fine music and chill out. Greek language is really beautiful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqzrofdwi-g&feature=related
Edited by Suren - 18-Dec-2008 at 05:37
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Leonidas
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Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 04:00 |
We do not just call the FYROM thats there multilateral name (eg UN/EU) until one is agreed on. Until then they will be stuck with a fugly acronym. Now if they want to qualify their name with 'northern' or 'upper' etc it would be fine with Greece, instead they insist on being THE Macedonia which is not fine.
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Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 05:01 |
Northern Macedonia sounds reasonable to me. I dont really have an issue with just Macedonia either as the Greek part is a region rather than a country. But for diplomacy's sake N Macedonia would still leave Macedonia with their heritage part intact and Greeks would still have their own Macedonia's integrity maintained as well.
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 13:23 |
Also, many Macedonians feel irritated that the Hellenistic civilisation that arose after the classical period is regarded as Greek, rather than Macedonian, which was the name of the ancient state from which the Diadochi and Alexander III "The great" came from. Thus, there have been several attempts (which Flipper excellently destroyed!) to prove that the culture and language of the Diadochi was actually slavic. It's an ongoing debate, but since Macedonians are essentially Slavic, they feel that their cultural identity is being given to someone else because of the very use of the word "Hellenistic". Someone else said the basic jidst of it, but this is personally the bit that I find interesting.
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Leonidas
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Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 15:03 |
^ that's a issue of bad education, misunderstanding and a bit of political indoctrination. Its a Ethno genesis on shaky foundations, you got to pick a myth that's more robust and well, unique.
They are essentially Slavic and are trying to 'fit' the history into something that goes along a straight line with their current identity, but ignoring reason in the process. If the medieval Slavic tribes that came to Lakonia kept their language to this day but had on a whole became a part of the local population, they can share the spartan legacy with their Greek neighbours. As locals. But they cant redefine the 'spartan' as something/else slavic (or at least non-greek) without looking like fools and pssing of their neighbours.
Edited by Leonidas - 09-Jan-2009 at 15:04
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Flipper
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Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 12:46 |
First of all, thanks Aster Thrax Eupator for the credits. Second, I believe most of the people analysed the issue very well here. There's a slight line that could be decide good or bad relations of the two countries. If the inhabitants of the former yugoslav republic, identified themselves as macedonians and looked upon their southern neighbours as their Greek brothers (likewise makedones looked their northern neighbours as their slavic brothers), then things would be very different. There are attempts that try to deattach completely the history of the region from Greece and that's what annoys mostly the greek public. Meanwhile, being from the mountains of south-western macedonia, i usually ask their locals about their view. They usually say, that once they were the "macedones" (Macedonians in greek) but now they have to add the preffix "native" to distinguish themselves from their northern neighbours (which they do not have necessarely a bad thought of). I think the best example of a man i've seen, regarding this issue, is one of our forum members Cadmus. He comes from Ohrid, sees himself as a Macedonian, but believes that a Macedonian is bound one way or another to a Hellenic tradition not detached. I won't speak in behalf of him, i hope he sees this thread and expresses his full view. The point is that if most people were like Cadmus, then a "Macedonian" question would never become an issue.
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Flipper
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Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 12:47 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
If the medieval Slavic tribes that came to Lakonia kept their language to this day but had on a whole became a part of the local population, they can share the spartan legacy with their Greek neighbours. As locals. But they cant redefine the 'spartan' as something/else slavic (or at least non-greek) without looking like fools and pssing of their neighbours.
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That was my point above too.
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eaglecap
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Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 18:59 |
Just talking to my Greek friends on another forum they fear that if they allow them to call their nation Macedonia then they will start to claim the portion of Greece also called Macdonia. Whether this fear is founded or not I am not sure. I do not know why a compromise could be created such as the Slavic Republic of Macedonia or even the northern Repubic of Macedonia. I do not believe most peoople in FYROM want to sieze Greek lands but I have encountered a few on the other forum who dream of this. I hope for a peaceful resolution though although both the compromises I mentioned have been rejected by both sides, mainly Greece.
I need to take time to really study this and one site is:
http://www.macedonia.info/
Edited by eaglecap - 13-Jan-2009 at 19:12
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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gcle2003
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Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 19:19 |
The name issue is essentially unimportant, as Shakespeare would have pointed out. At international conferences, of which we have a lot here, it has essentially become a joke at the expense of both parties concerned.
Belgium has a province called Luxembourg. Luxembourg is an independent country. And nobody cares.
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eaglecap
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Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 19:42 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
The name issue is essentially unimportant, as Shakespeare would have pointed out. At international conferences, of which we have a lot here, it has essentially become a joke at the expense of both parties concerned.
Belgium has a province called Luxembourg. Luxembourg is an independent country. And nobody cares. |
I tend to agree with you but many of the Greeks, both in Greece and abroad, would not agree that their use of the name Macedonia is unimportant. I do not think it is the most important crises in the world or even close but for the people there, both sides, it is.
FRYOM is too weak to even think about going the war over this and I do not believe most even want to but for both sides a name is important. I think in time this issue will be resolved with a compromise.
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Suren
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Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 21:14 |
Certainly, Macedonia is a name that reminds us of Phillip and Alex which Greeks take their inspiration and pride; If you take that name from Greeks it looks like you have stolen a big chunk of their pride and history.
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eaglecap
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Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 21:41 |
Originally posted by Suren
Certainly, Macedonia is a name that reminds us of Phillip and Alex which Greeks take their inspiration and pride; If you take that name from Greeks it looks like you have stolen a big chunk of their pride and history.
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I tend to agree
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 06:04 |
Hello to you all
I think gcle put it, this is a stupid argument over nothing. If FYRM wanted territory it would have demanded it either as Macedonia or what ever name the greeks chose for it. Plus, they could barely handle a group pf Albanian gangs let alone the Greek army.
AL-Jassas
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