How to defeat pikemen

"whats that got to do with anything? the space of one tank can be occupied by 10 men, so what? we're talking about equal numbers and that means for example 100 Horse Archers vs 50 foot archers and 50 pikemen. which way do you want?"

"That and the mongols had briagandine armor which an arrow or crossbow bolt could punch right through "

That and the mongols had briagandine armor which an arrow or crossbow bolt could punch right through 

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin Originally posted by Penelope For some odd reason, Rome Total War came to mind when i saw this thread. As any sensible person should. I'm currently hooked on Medieval 2 - there are some amazing mods for it knocking about. Go my longbowmen, go!

Count, you have no need to worry, no one has appeared to have gone off topic.

Calvary can easily defeat pikeman who are not operating as part of a coherent group, as they are ment to be.  A far better use for calvary instead of a head on attack would be shadowing a pike army, observing and denying them communications, doing harassing raids, especially if they had missile cav or lancers.... which were in use well into the 19th century in some theaters by western powers like England.

Of course, the best use of calvary outside of harassing hits against a WELL formed pike formation would be a blitz though a weaker type of unit or oblique attack against the oppositions' hopefully weaker tail or it's logistical support..... be it a wagon train or supply base, or denying the pikemen, be it before or after a battle that was won or lost, pikemen who existed in a era prior to MREs, the ability to forage....... in which the calvary would of seemed most formidable against the dispersed pikemen and could most seriously hurt the oppositions ability to carry on operations.

This all assumes the calvary are not shooting with either Javelin, Missiles or rocks or arrows, or gunpowder weapons of some sort. A tactical synthesis is capable of varying very much on this point..... given the Chinese and India had similar units in their long history, and it wasn't unknown to have these combinations in the Americas after the Indians got a hold of horses. As to Africa, in the Sudanic regions I do not know much about other than they have spear and calvary, both horse and camel.... contradictions to western held beliefs may very well be found in these theaters.

However, all in all, unless the army immediately infront of you has suffered from crushing morale, or is unsuspecting a sudden hit in a night battle, I would avoid hitting a pike formation from ANY angle, cause they can hold their own on any front.... and if they are hollow in the center, can do internal reinforcements from any interior and or file the commander so chooses. Having said all this, I doubt the Mongols would of blinked a eye at a prospect of facing off against a pike unit.




Edited by Mercury_Dawn - 19-Sep-2008 at 01:33

I never said anything about the roman cavalry there was a battle that a member mentioned where heavy cavlary charged pikes, what about a klibanophoros? and if you train a horse properly they will go where you want them to go

Originally posted by TheARRGH If you're assuming cavalry from the time before gunpowder and armed with close-range weapons rather than bows, against a well-trained and disciplined mass of pikemen... well, it'd be very, VERY hard. On the other hand, pikemen are fairly easy to outmaneuver, and bows have been known to work.

One can defeat pikemen with combined arms approach. For example episode from Italian wars in 16th century. French used their heavy gendarmes cavalry to halt advance of enemy pikemen squares. Once they were halted and gendarmes retreated - the artillery opened fire against stationary pikemen squares.
Another way to defeat pikemen was to have opposing force made up from mixed pikemen, musketeer (earlier in 16th century - swordsmen and halbardiers were included too). Musketeers fire at advancing pikemen block and when the two blocks colide in melee, the musketeers with daggers or swords attack enemy pikemen formation's vulnerable gaps.

Her is video clip from movie "Alatriste", which can give you an idea how these combined arms approaches worked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ZhoenHqP4

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin Originally posted by Penelope For some odd reason, Rome Total War came to mind when i saw this thread. As any sensible person should. I'm currently hooked on Medieval 2 - there are some amazing mods for it knocking about. Go my longbowmen, go!