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How to defeat pikemen

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Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How to defeat pikemen
    Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 20:28
"whats that got to do with anything? the space of one tank can be occupied by 10 men, so what? we're talking about equal numbers and that means for example 100 Horse Archers vs 50 foot archers and 50 pikemen. which way do you want?"
 
A tank and 10 men isn't a good example for medieval combat.
 
Where would 100 horsemen and 50 pikmen as well as 50 archers ever fight? And wouldn't the horse count as a living thing too?
 
"again, point being? it doesn't matter anything at all from where the arrows come from, the target si that matters, Horse archers that wheel around a dense formation will pretty much always hit even without much aiming while the foot archers need to aim at individual moving targets and horses can definately take an arrow without going down immediately."
 
Ok let me explain again more simply.
 
If you have more arrows being shot from a more concentrated arrows, the arrows themselves will be more concentrated by default. I know that the source can be spread out and fire can be concentrated too but the distance between archers would also be greater lessening the number/accuracy.
 
The problem with "wheeling about" is that the rate of fire is much lower even if it is constant.
 
Also foot archer doesn't have to aim at the individual. Imagine 50 mongols wheeling about infront of you. From your perspective you don't see a circle, you see mongols appearing and disapearing. You can just shoot into the centre of the formation. It'll hit someone either at the first edge or the second. You don't have to aim at the specific mongol. What are you waiting your turn "no that's not the mongol i wanted to shoot at. I wanted THAT one!" LOL
 
"how did you come to such an conclusion. foot archers don't have a higher range by default and they don't have more arrows by default. are you talkign about a video game or something?"
 
More times then not a foot archer will have a greater range. When you are on foot you can also carry more arrows or simply have it on the ground by you.

Video game? Confused
 

"they don't ahve to but it was commonplace."
 
My point stands, you don't have to.
 
"they don't shoot straight, crossbows and composite reflex bows shoot straight, english longbows for example shoot at an angle."
 
You can shoot longbows straight as well. Try it. My point is that it doesn't have to be shot at a 45 degree angle.
 

"also armoured they can be killed easily, if the pikemen are armorued, then let the Horse Archers be armoured as well. "
 
The type of armor a pikeman and foot archer can wear is quite different then what a horse archer can wear. Archers can also use pavsives.
 
"Sleepy that's a game and it toally does NOT work in a realistic way."
 
It's basic economic sense. And what is the flaw in the game with this specific example. I'm not basing my statements on the game, I simply provided you with a way to understand it. Please don't change the tone of the conversation into suggesting anything other then that.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 19:51
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

It's very mathematical. In the space of one horse and a rider, can fit 3 archers.


whats that got to do with anything? the space of one tank can be occupied by 10 men, so what? we're talking about equal numbers and that means for example 100 Horse Archers vs 50 foot archers and 50 pikemen. which way do you want?


Not to mention that the horses wouldn't ride right next to each other. So over a smaller area you have more arrows coming from it.


again, point being? it doesn't matter anything at all from where the arrows come from, the target si that matters, Horse archers that wheel around a dense formation will pretty much always hit even without much aiming while the foot archers need to aim at individual moving targets and horses can definately take an arrow without going down immediately.


You simply have more arrows, that can go further and be more accuratly shot.


how did you come to such an conclusion. foot archers don't have a higher range by default and they don't have more arrows by default. are you talkign about a video game or something?
 
Archers don't have to fire in volleys. Where is the rule of this?


they don't ahve to but it was commonplace.

They can shoot straight across in which case running in a circle just posses a big target when shooting straight.


they don't shoot straight, crossbows and composite reflex bows shoot straight, english longbows for example shoot at an angle.
 
As for the pikemen unless armored well yes they would fall to pieces being so packed, but by the time they got through all the pikemen the foot archers would just kill all the archers.


also armoured they can be killed easily, if the pikemen are armorued, then let the Horse Archers be armoured as well.
 
Here as an experiment try this. If you have Medieval 2,


Sleepy that's a game and it toally does NOT work in a realistic way.
 

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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 17:55
"That and the mongols had briagandine armor which an arrow or crossbow bolt could punch right throughLOL "
 
The effectiveness of the armor in that sense is false.
 
"doesn't matter, even if there were archers they could through speed come fast enough to disable this advantage. densely packed formations are still an easy prey, foot archers shoot in volley but Horse Archers wheel around individually, so the same number of horse archers can concentrate their fire on one spot while the foot archers need to shoot at all directions at fast moving targets."
 
It's very mathematical. In the space of one horse and a rider, can fit 3 archers. Not to mention that the horses wouldn't ride right next to each other. So over a smaller area you have more arrows coming from it. You simply have more arrows, that can go further and be more accuratly shot.
 
Archers don't have to fire in volleys. Where is the rule of this? They can shoot straight across in which case running in a circle just posses a big target when shooting straight.
 
As for the pikemen unless armored well yes they would fall to pieces being so packed, but by the time they got through all the pikemen the foot archers would just kill all the archers.
 
Here as an experiment try this. If you have Medieval 2, have one side take pikemen of any sort. Unarmored if you want the mongols to even have an advantage, and then take foot archers/crossbowmen and set them up just infront or behind the pikemen. Then take some horse archers for the mongols and have them run circles infront trading shots. I KNOW it's a game but it's fairly accurate in the mechanics for what limits it has and probably the closest to anything we can use to test.
 
Even Tacticus writes that when fighting steppe nomads (Turks) what you have to do is set up archers infront of spearmen and outrange the horse archers while using your own light cavalry or horse archers to harrass the enemy if you could.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 21:30
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Then they'd be screwed because you had archers that can shoot further and you couldn't charge in at them either.


doesn't matter, even if there were archers they could through speed come fast enough to disable this advantage. densely packed formations are still an easy prey, foot archers shoot in volley but Horse Archers wheel around individually, so the same number of horse archers can concentrate their fire on one spot while the foot archers need to shoot at all directions at fast moving targets.
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 18:25

That and the mongols had briagandine armor which an arrow or crossbow bolt could punch right throughLOL 



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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 18:08
Count Bel just let it go. No harm no foul.
 
"Having said all this, I doubt the Mongols would of blinked a eye at a prospect of facing off against a pike unit."
 
I'm sure they'd do more then blink of it was pikemen AND foot archers which would have better accuracy and range. Then they'd be screwed because you had archers that can shoot further and you couldn't charge in at them either.
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 17:21
Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin

Originally posted by Penelope

For some odd reason, Rome Total War came to mind when i saw this thread.



As any sensible person should. Wink

I'm currently hooked on Medieval 2 - there are some amazing mods for it knocking about.

Go my longbowmen, go!
 
The same goes for that, how does a post on a video game help? 


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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 17:19
Originally posted by Penelope

For some odd reason, Rome Total War came to mind when i saw this thread.

 
LOLI think that counts as off topic, hwo does a vidoe game even remotely contribute anyhting useful to this thread?


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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 08:45
Count, you have no need to worry, no one has appeared to have gone off topic.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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  Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 04:14
Originally posted by Mercury_Dawn

Having said all this, I doubt the Mongols would of blinked a eye at a prospect of facing off against a pike unit.


Partially because missile weapons were extremely prevalent among the mongols, and despite their barbaric reputation, they were quite militarily astute; historical proof that just becuase your culture is more militaristic and your technology is simpler than your competition, you are not necessarily an undisciplined thug who wins his battles using sheer fury.
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche

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  Quote Mercury_Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 01:25
Calvary can easily defeat pikeman who are not operating as part of a coherent group, as they are ment to be.  A far better use for calvary instead of a head on attack would be shadowing a pike army, observing and denying them communications, doing harassing raids, especially if they had missile cav or lancers.... which were in use well into the 19th century in some theaters by western powers like England.

Of course, the best use of calvary outside of harassing hits against a WELL formed pike formation would be a blitz though a weaker type of unit or oblique attack against the oppositions' hopefully weaker tail or it's logistical support..... be it a wagon train or supply base, or denying the pikemen, be it before or after a battle that was won or lost, pikemen who existed in a era prior to MREs, the ability to forage....... in which the calvary would of seemed most formidable against the dispersed pikemen and could most seriously hurt the oppositions ability to carry on operations.

This all assumes the calvary are not shooting with either Javelin, Missiles or rocks or arrows, or gunpowder weapons of some sort. A tactical synthesis is capable of varying very much on this point..... given the Chinese and India had similar units in their long history, and it wasn't unknown to have these combinations in the Americas after the Indians got a hold of horses. As to Africa, in the Sudanic regions I do not know much about other than they have spear and calvary, both horse and camel.... contradictions to western held beliefs may very well be found in these theaters.

However, all in all, unless the army immediately infront of you has suffered from crushing morale, or is unsuspecting a sudden hit in a night battle, I would avoid hitting a pike formation from ANY angle, cause they can hold their own on any front.... and if they are hollow in the center, can do internal reinforcements from any interior and or file the commander so chooses. Having said all this, I doubt the Mongols would of blinked a eye at a prospect of facing off against a pike unit.




Edited by Mercury_Dawn - 19-Sep-2008 at 01:33
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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 00:59
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

I never said anything about the roman cavalryLOL there was a battle that a member mentioned where heavy cavlary charged pikes, what about a klibanophoros? and if you train a horse properly they will go where you want them to go
 
Animals never loose animal behaviors and instincts, no matter how well you train them.
What is the officer problem?
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 21:54
I never said anything about the roman cavalryLOL there was a battle that a member mentioned where heavy cavlary charged pikes, what about a klibanophoros? and if you train a horse properly they will go where you want them to go


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  Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 19:49
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

 Hey the early romans did it... wiht great ease I might addLOL


That's probably because of better maneuvering, training, leadership and  weaponry, rather than some sort of magical roman-cavalry powers. But in general, never charge your horses at a wall of pikes. You can ride around them, but go straight and you're toast. And contrary to popular belief, horses will NOT run straight into long sharp point sticks just because their rider tells them to. At least, they won't usually.
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche

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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 15:57
Originally posted by TheARRGH

If you're assuming cavalry from the time before gunpowder and armed with close-range weapons rather than bows, against a well-trained and disciplined mass of pikemen...

well, it'd be very, VERY hard. On the other hand, pikemen are fairly easy to outmaneuver, and bows have been known to work.
 
Hey the early romans did it... wiht great ease I might addLOL


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  Quote Turenne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 13:42
It is true that the end of the mighty spanish Tercio is probably the most factually demonstrated way to break a pikeman formation.  The battle of Rocroi is one of the first moment where firepower has taken more importance than shock.


"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I attack."

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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 09:02
One can defeat pikemen with combined arms approach. For example episode from Italian wars in 16th century. French used their heavy gendarmes cavalry to halt advance of enemy pikemen squares. Once they were halted and gendarmes retreated - the artillery opened fire against stationary pikemen squares.
Another way to defeat pikemen was to have opposing force made up from mixed pikemen, musketeer (earlier in 16th century - swordsmen and halbardiers were included too). Musketeers fire at advancing pikemen block and when the two blocks colide in melee, the musketeers with daggers or swords attack enemy pikemen formation's vulnerable gaps.

Her is video clip from movie "Alatriste", which can give you an idea how these combined arms approaches worked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ZhoenHqP4
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 01:49
Could we please stay on topic? there is a whole other forum for gaming and information technology


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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 01:08
Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin

Originally posted by Penelope

For some odd reason, Rome Total War came to mind when i saw this thread.



As any sensible person should. Wink

I'm currently hooked on Medieval 2 - there are some amazing mods for it knocking about.

Go my longbowmen, go!
 
LOL
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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  Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2008 at 05:40
If you're assuming cavalry from the time before gunpowder and armed with close-range weapons rather than bows, against a well-trained and disciplined mass of pikemen...

well, it'd be very, VERY hard. On the other hand, pikemen are fairly easy to outmaneuver, and bows have been known to work.
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche

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