How to defeat pikemen

Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf Basically the Roman Cataphracts of this period were just as good at using a bow as the steppe nomads or good enough. Cataphracts could shoot arrows over at nomads at their leizure while their arrows did little or nothing to them because of their better armor. If the nomads wanted to attack head on, the Cataphract would again out due the steppe nomad because of the armament. So there is a point to having a bow on a Cataphract. You wouldn't use it like a harrasser, probably wouldn't need as many arrows but the bow could be used against other horse archers that did want to harrass.

Roberts already mentioned that Cataphracts shot at a halt and those Byzantine troops who fought like Steppe Nomads were Steppe Nomads as the byzantines employed numerous mercenaries of all kinds. and why again you assume that Steppe Nomads had no fully armoured horsemen themselves? would you please stop your anti-horse archer/steppe army bias?


and btw, the discussion at the moment is about Cataphracts in a thread about defeatign pikemen. this thread itself is already of low value, unless it doesn't come back to the topic i'll have to move it to historical amusement.


Edited by Temujin - 28-Sep-2008 at 19:02

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa Originally posted by Count Belisarius I never said anything about the roman cavalry there was a battle that a member mentioned where heavy cavlary charged pikes, what about a klibanophoros? and if you train a horse properly they will go where you want them to go   Animals never loose animal behaviors and instincts, no matter how well you train them.

Basically the Roman Cataphracts of this period were just as good at using a bow as the steppe nomads or good enough. Cataphracts could shoot arrows over at nomads at their leizure while their arrows did little or nothing to them because of their better armor. If the nomads wanted to attack head on, the Cataphract would again out due the steppe nomad because of the armament. So there is a point to having a bow on a Cataphract. You wouldn't use it like a harrasser, probably wouldn't need as many arrows but the bow could be used against other horse archers that did want to harrass.

Well what do you mean by heavy cavalry? do you mean that they were somehow slower? remember what doomed heavy cavalry in the first place? they didn't have missle weapons how would a horse archer be better? thats what a cataphract is, and klibanophoroi rode destriers which were bred for speed, maneuverablity, and agility,despite their massive size and a horse archer won't do you any good if his arrows can't get through his opponents armor and the byzantines used horse archers, also the byzanitnes used feint tactics with great sucess

Yeah but recent tests showed thta lamellar provided the same amount of protection as plate armor keep in mind that the klibanophoros owuld alos be wearing chain mail and they had plate since the days of the romans there are sevaral reliefs which show officers with cuirasses and chest plates

Originally posted by Roberts Originally posted by Count Belisarius Do you have any websites on the heavy cavalry from the italian wars that you owuld reccomend? and what sort of armor did they have? was it the typical chanfron,  crinet, peytral, crupper, and frouchard arrangment? with mabye some chain mail?  I don't know any websites about them in English, though I am sure you can find a lot about them in French language internet, since they had most of this heavy cavalry. Here are some pictures from my hard drive to give you better idea of their armament. You can read about them in wikipedia too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarme_ (historical)

I know the poles employed those tactics but I don't think it had anything to do with the trend of conversation i was having with Temujin.

Good example

Battle of Carrhae Parthian composition

9,000 horse archers,
1,000 cataphracts

Originally posted by Count Belisarius Do you have any websites on the heavy cavalry from the italian wars that you owuld reccomend? and what sort of armor did they have? was it the typical chanfron,  crinet, peytral, crupper, and frouchard arrangment? with mabye some chain mail?

I don't know any websites about them in English, though I am sure you can find a lot about them in French language internet, since they had most of this heavy cavalry.

Here are some pictures from my hard drive to give you better idea of their armament.


You can read about them in wikipedia too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarme_(historical)

Parthia was also very catphract heavy also I thought by steepe style you meant firing at a run not harassment and feint although cataphracts did that but I don't think they did it mongol style I think the byzantines left that to their own light horse archers