Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Who really ruled the Golden Horde?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 846
  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who really ruled the Golden Horde?
    Posted: 09-Jul-2008 at 13:18
The Golden Horde was the longest survivor among the offsprings of the Mongol Empire, and included the area conquered by the Mongol hordes populated by Russians, Kipchaks, Pechnegs, Bulgars, and other nationalities.
 
Despite Russian sources referred to the Golden Horde ruler collectively as "Tatars". The identity of these "Tatars" clearly transformed from Mongol to Kipchak Turkic over the time of occupation.
Would it be sensible to say then, that it was effectively the Kipchaks who ruled the Golden Horde?
 
This assumption wouldn't make much sense either, because the Kipchaks, like the Russians, were just another conquered people; and there was no reason why the Mongols would be more sympathetic towards them despite the common steppe origin they shared.
 
So how did this Mongol-to-Kipchak identity transformation take place?
 
 
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2008 at 22:11
The army of Batu khan during the conquest of Russia on 70% - 80% consisted of Kipchaks. Though those Kipchaks were eastern Kipchaks from the modern Kazakhstan. Western Kipchaks from Eastern Europe i.e. Cumans subdued to Mongols only after a long exhausting war. A lot of them actually escaped to Hungary and Balkans.
 
So, the Golden Horde rulers being a minority among their Kipchak subject very quickly were "Kipchakisized" it was a matter of necessity to attract powerful Kipchak clans. So, first khans of the Golden Horde quickly got close with the noble Kipchak clans by intermarrying with their daughters. Given that there were really not so many Mongols there they really quickly mixed with Kipchaks in new "Tatar" ethnos. All the process was facillitated by the adoption of Islam and abandoning of the indigenous Mongol beliefs.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
ProMongol View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 00:14
Who really ruled the Golden Horde?

- Of course , Golden Lineage of Chingis khaan ruled the Golden Ord.
Back to Top
ProMongol View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 00:50
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchak_Khanate
 
trying to revise the history and calling Golden Orda as Kipchak khanate is degrading insult to founders of Golden Horde.
 
Mongols chased kipchaks (cumans/ Polovcy)and reached to Hungary and destroyed them
 
Even much earlier, in the battle of Kalka, mongols sent messengers with word "-We don't want war against you Russians. We came here to take / destroy our slaves- polovcy (kipchaks)  whop were always your enemies. If they are with you, destroy them and take the wealth for yourselves"
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 02:10
What insults?
 
Yes, at the battle of Kalka river there the Mongol army was exclusively Mongol.
 
However during Batu's invasion "Mongolian" army consisted mainly of Kipchaks. But as I said those were Eastern Kipchaks not Western i.e. Cumans.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
TheMysticNomad View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 27-Nov-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 93
  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 12:10
The point ProMongol was making was that the top leadership/khans of the Golden Horde were descended from Chingis Khan.  There was no Kipchak dynasty ruling the G.H., although the Mongol elite certainly made cultural changes over time.  That did not change their ancestry, though.
Unify All Countries!
Back to Top
Evrenosgazi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 379
  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 21:56
The mongols didnt chase the eastern kıpchaks, they subdued them and gave them an important role in the armies. The mongol armies armies were predominantly turkic because there werent enough mongol to conquer the worldSmile. This isnt a insult and this does not change the fact that Chingis han was Mongol.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 22:31
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

The point ProMongol was making was that the top leadership/khans of the Golden Horde were descended from Chingis Khan.  There was no Kipchak dynasty ruling the G.H., although the Mongol elite certainly made cultural changes over time.  That did not change their ancestry, though.
 
Nobody doubts that, however the fact is that in a two generations after Batu the rulers of the Golden Horde didn't speak any Mongolian at all. I guess it says something...
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 846
  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2008 at 19:13

I heard that many of the royalty of most Tatar nations: Crimean, Kazan, and Siberian Tatars, and even among Kazakhs and Kirguiz, could trace their ascendancy directly to Ghengis Khan. Is this true?

Since the identity of the Kazan Tatars have now been revealed as "Volga Bolgar", Are most Crimean Tatars descended directly from Golden Horde Tatars, and therefore Kipchaks?

 

Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2008 at 23:22
Well actually it's Kazakhs in the first place who have a royal clan which descends from Jochi the son of Genghiskhan.
 
This clan is called "Tore" and it exists now like was centuries ago. Actually Kazakhs have the tradition of geneologies which is called Shezhire describing the ancestry for several hundred years before.
 
Every Kazakh is supposed to have such.
 
But, unfortunately, I don't know about the similar traditions among Tatars. I also haven't heard of modern Tatar families claiming their Genghizkhan ancestry.
 
About Volga Tatar. It's not such a clear cut. There is actually an indication that most of the Volga Bulgars were virtually exterminated during the Mongol invasion. Volga Bulgar language went extinct for example. Modern Tatars speak Kipchak dialect which was apparently brought with the Eastern Kipchaks who came after Mongol invastion.
 
However, for some reasons, many representatives of the modern Tatars community prefer to emphasize their Volga Tatar ancestry and lack of any relation to the Mongol-Tatar invaders what so ever.
 
Most ardent members of this movement advocate for the abolishing of the name Tatar (as the name of the alien invaders) and return to the authentic "Bulgar" name.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 846
  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2008 at 14:48
The Chuvash supposedly speak "Volga Bulgar".
 
To what extent the Mongols exterminated the "Volga Bulgars" is a question of debate.
Didn't the Mongols and Kipchaks become Islamicised through a legacy left by the Volga Bulgars? If this was the case, then Bulgar influence must have been rather strong in the Golden Horde.
 
I get the feeling that the identification of "Volga Tatar" with "Bulgar" is highly influenced by ones political views.
I've met very few Kazan Tatars in person (3 in total), and all of them tend to trace their origins to the Mongol invasions rather than to Volga Bulgaria.
By taking a peak at various internet forums, I get the impression that Tatars who revindicate their "Islamic" identity are the ones who most identify with the "Bulgar" identity, as the Bulgars created one of the most advanced Islamic civilizations at the time.
 
Is there much solidarity between Chuvash and Kazan Tatar despite they are off different religion?
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2008 at 16:49
I would say that the Islamization of Mongols and Kipchaks in the Golden Horde was mainly due to the Middle Eastern and Kwarezmian influence.
 
In the early years of the Golden Horde, it was not that clear which religion will dominate since naturally besides the former Volga Bulgaria land the horde included many Russian Christian lands. Batu was hoping to create an alliance with the local Russian princes.
 
The famous Russian prince Alexander Nevsky became Batu's "named son" and the "blood brother" of his son Sartak. Sartak also converted to the Russian Orthodox Christianity, according to some sources.
 
However, rule of Sartak was not long and it's very likely he was poisoned... Then the party that relied on the eastern Kypchaks took over. Eastern Kypchaks were at least nominally Muslims due to the long contacts with the Muslim states of central Asia.
 
Also since the Horde incorporated some quite developed land of the former Kwarezmian empire including the city of Urgench, which was actually the biggest city of the Golden Horde, the Islamic influence became even more strong. All these is in the light that Islamic culture was quite developed and influential in the 13th century in general.
 
About Chuvash and Tatar, it's not that straight forward. Their relations are kind of complicated. Sometimes even the relations between Volga Tatars and Bashkirs (perhaps the closest to them Turkic group) are not that easy...
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 846
  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 18:32
Do the Chuvash generally identify more with Russians, for sharing the same religion? Or more with Tatars, Bashkirs, and Kazakhs, for sharing a similiar language?
 
Do they generally have a strong national consciousness linking them to their Volga Bulgar ancestors as the Volga Tatars have?
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 19:09

It depends. But generally speaking Chuvashs are closer to Russians because of the religion.

Chuvash language in fact is not mutually intelligible with Tatar language.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 846
  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 16:43
I read that Chuvash isn't related to either the Oguz or the Kipchak family of Turkic languages.
Anthropologists say that their language descends directly from that spoken by the ancient Bulgars, who arrived in Eastern Europe as part of the Xiongnu migration; a good few centuries earlier that the Gokturk Empire.
 
Would it therefore not be too far-fetched to say that the Bulgar language, or modern-day Chuvash, is the language closest to that of the ancient Xiongnu?
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 18:20

Chuvash is part of the "Oghur" branch of Turkic which also included Khazar, Hunnic, Bulgar.

      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
ProMongol View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 05:32
Originally posted by Sarmat12

What insults?
 
What insults???
 
I think this kind of pathetic title  "Bloodline of the Kipchak Khans" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Khan  is really insult to Batu Khan who utterly destroyed the Kypchak royal lines.
 
pathetic image.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 06:27
I think in this article they meant "Kipchak Khanate" in a sense the "Khanate which ruled over Kypchaks" likewise they used another very strange term there "Khanate of China" for Yuan dynasty. But I agree this kind of term "Bloodline of Kipchak Khans" is not very accurate. The article in Wiki is simply written by some lay non-professional people.
 
I also agree that this statue is pathetic. Batu looks like some Arabic emir from the Middle East LOL
 
Nevertheless, the above inaccuracies don't neglect the fact that the core population of the Golden Horde consisted of Kipchaks and the Jochi line Mongolian Khans got mixed with Kipchaks fairly quickly.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 23-Jul-2008 at 06:38
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230
  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:06
Originally posted by Sarmat12

The army of Batu khan during the conquest of Russia on 70% - 80% consisted of Kipchaks.
 
Where did you get this info from? Not Gumilev, I hope...
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230
  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:08
Originally posted by Sarmat12

The famous Russian prince Alexander Nevsky became Batu's "named son" and the "blood brother" of his son Sartak. Sartak also converted to the Russian Orthodox Christianity, according to some sources.
 
OK, I see you do take your nonsense from Gumilev...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.