Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Documentray: Stolen Kosovo

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 10>
Author
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Documentray: Stolen Kosovo
    Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 07:27
Spain is pro Serbian for example?


1. I have not seen the Spanish report. The Finnish were the only teach that came out with any report, it was made in 1999. It was the only EU team that dealt with Racak.
2. Actually, Spain and France were the two countries that throughout the course of war showed themselves to favor the Serbian side over the Albanian side. This is a well known fact from the war.


How exactly is B92 unreliable or biased? It is about one of the few channels in Serbia that has remained unbiased throughout the years.


Im guessing that Serbianna is among the "unbiased".

Edited by Theodore Felix - 16-Jun-2008 at 07:29
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 07:34
"1. I have not seen the Spanish report. The Finnish were the only teach that came out with any report, it was made in 1999. It was the only EU team that dealt with Racak. "

And as of 2007 it is concluded that there was no massacre.
 
"2. Actually, Spain and France were the two countries that throughout the course of war showed themselves to favor the Serbian side over the Albanian side. This is a well known fact from the war. "
 
Del Monde or however the French paper is called is actually very anti Serb. One of the writers even details this in one of her articles.
 
Short comment from Diana Johnstone
======================================================
Contrary to what Renaud Girard says in his conclusion, "The reluctance of the Belgrade government" is not, in fact, entirely incomprehensible, since Belgrade is convinced that the U.S.-led "international community" is determined to frame the Serb side in order to justify NATO bombing. The hasty and virulent William Walker condemnation of the Serbs for "the most horrendous" massacre he had ever seen (and that after four years in El Salvador!), not to mention the latest in a series of fatal "captures" of Bosnian Serbs accused of war crimes, has only confirmed the view of most Serbs that they can expect only unfair condemnation, not justice, from such "investigators".
Doubts are cast on the reality of the "Racak massacre" even by Le Monde, which for years has led the crusade against the Serbs. But Le Monde's own correspondent, Christophe Chatelot, sent the following report from Pristina.
-- Diana Johnstone
 
"Im guessing that Serbianna is among the "unbiased". "
 
I've actually never seen that before in my life. Thanks for the link. Going to look through it when I have time.
 
And yes B92 is well known to be general western ass kissers, pro tadic sell outs.
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 07:42
And as of 2007 it is concluded that there was no massacre.


So where is the actual report? You can find the 1999 report online(http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/kosovo/Kosovo-Massacres2.htm), but I cant see the apparent new one?

Here is a website that records the history of reports around the Racak massacre: http://citycellar.com/BalkanWitness/racak.htm

It ends in 2005. What happened to the 2007 report?

Edited by Theodore Felix - 16-Jun-2008 at 07:50
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:03
"What happened to the 2007 report? "
 
This:
 

By PETER WORTHINGTON - Toronto Sun

Back in March, 1999, what tipped the scales for then U.S. president Bill Clinton to launch an air war against Serbia, were reports of a massacre of 45 Albanian civilians by Serb security forces at the village of Racak, some 30 km from Pristina in southern Kosovo.

Clinton told the world on March 19, 1999: "We should remember what happened in Racak ... innocent men, women and children were taken from their homes to a gully, forced to kneel in the dirt and sprayed with gunfire." Photos circled the world. NATO bombing began March 24, and lasted 78 days.

White House press secretary Joe Lockhart said of Racak: "A strong message will be brought to President (Slobodan) Milosevic about bringing those to justice who should be punished for this ... "

U.S. Foreign Secretary Madeleine Albright, eager to make war against then-Yugoslavia and speaking on CBS´ Face the Nation, cited Racak where, she said, there were "dozens of people with their throats slit." She called this the "galvanizing incident" that meant peace talks at Rambouillet were pointless, "humanitarian bombing" the only recourse.

Germany´s Foreign Minister, Joschka Fischer, told the newspaper Berliner Zeitung that the Racak massacre "became the turning point for me" and war was the only answer.

Canada´s then foreign minister, Lloyd Axworthy, called the massacre "a disgusting victimization of civilians."

Human Rights Watch (HRW) reported the dead had fingernails torn out - evidence of torture.

On Jan. 16, the day after the actual massacre, William Walker, the veteran American diplomat who headed peace verifiers for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), was taken by Kosovo Liberation Army members to Racak to see the bodies in the ditch. He declared that the dead "obviously were executed where they lay."

His OSCE report spoke of "arbitrary arrests, killings and mutilations of unarmed civilians" at Racak.

GROUND TROOPS

Canada´s Louise Arbour, then special prosecutor for the war crimes tribunal, (hand-picked for the job by Albright) was prevented by Serb authorities from visiting Racak. She vowed retribution for the massacre, urging that "international troops on the ground" were the only way to effect arrests.

When Milosevic was indicted as a war criminal, the massacre at Racak was cited as evidence. The London Times wrote that victims had their eyes gouged out, heads smashed in, faces blown away at close range, all "farmers, workers, villagers, aged 12-74, men, women, children."

Serbian and Belorussian forensic people investigated, but were suspect, so the European Union authorized a forensic team from Finland, headed by Helena Ranta, a dental pathologist, to investigate. The Finnish report was not made public.

Ranta gave a press conference at which she was vague, admitting there was no evidence of mutilation or torture, and that Yugoslav authorities had co-operated. But she also called the killings "a crime against humanity," widely interpreted to mean Racak was indeed a cold-blooded massacre.

It has since turned out, through subsequent investigations by German, French and American correspondents and by human rights and peace groups, including the anti-war International Action Centre and the Liberty Foundation, that the Racak massacre seems an enormous, albeit effective, hoax perpetrated by the Kosovo Liberation Army to persuade the U.S. and NATO to attack the Serbs. The goal was independence for Kosovo, possibly leading to the dream of a Greater Albania.

We now have a far better idea of what really happened at Racak - a pre-crisis town of 2,000 and a stronghold of KLA agitation. By January, 1999, most of its population had fled to a nearby town, Stimlje, leaving perhaps 400 people behind. When four Serbian policemen were ambushed and murdered in two separate incidents in a week, Serb security forces surrounded Racak and attacked. The Serbs tipped off foreign journalists who came to see. Fighting was savage and brief, not only in town but in the countryside.

Journalists found Racak had few people actually living there.

Some 20 bodies were counted. Serbs and journalists left at dusk. The next day, Jan. 16, the KLA was again in control.

During the night, it seems that all the KLA killed fighting in the area - 45 of them - were dumped in a gully at Racak and journalists and the OSCE investigators invited to see what was described as the "massacre" of unarmed civilians.

Military insignia and/or badges had been removed from clothing, military gear replaced by civilian clothing. No weapons were in sight. The hoax was on. William Walker was first on the scene and believed what he saw and was told. The international press relayed his outrage to the world.

Forensic evidence showed - as the Finnish team has since confirmed - that most of the 45 Racak dead had been shot at long range, not execution-style. Corpses tested positive with residue of gunpowder on their hands, indicating they had been firing weapons. No ammunition or shell casings were found near the bodies, where they had supposedly been massacred, nor were there pools of blood.

BODIES MOVED

Pathologists also found the 45 dead men had all been shot in different parts of the body, from different directions, indicating a battle somewhere else, the dead dumped together for effect.

Until recently, no one was interested in the truth. "Whether or not it´s a massacre, nobody wants to know any more," wrote Austria´s Die Welt newspaper. Autopsy findings were delayed while the thirst for war echoed in the halls of allied power.

The German newspaper Berliner Zeitung got access to the Finnish forensic findings, and sent a team of reporters to investigate and concluded: "In all probability, there was no Racak massacre at all ... "

French journalist Renaud Girard of Le Figaro was in Racak and was puzzled that reports failed to mention it was a "fortified village with a lot of trenches" - a KLA stronghold. Although he wrote an initial massacre story, he later had doubts: "I felt something was wrong."

Christophe Chatelet of Le Monde was in Racak the day of the Serb attack, and found one dead and four wounded when he left at dusk. The next day the KLA showed bodies from a massacre that hadn´t been there before. "I can´t solve that mystery," he said. (At the time, KLA commander-in-chief Hashim Thaci told the BBC: "We had a key unit in the region and had a fierce fight. Regrettably, we had many casualties, but so did the Serbs.")

Further investigation shows that two TV journalists for Associated Press and two teams of OSCE observers also saw the fight for Racak from a hill, entered when Serb security forces did and left when they left. The AP crew filmed a deserted village. It was overnight that the KLA returned and gathered their dead from the fighting. Next day, Walker told the world how adults and children had been "executed," some as they tried to flee. CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour, wife of U.S. State Department spokesman James Rubin, showed little skepticism in reporting on the "massacre of civilians."

CHECK THE NET

(For those who want to check further, enter "Racak massacre" on Google or Yahoo on the Internet and see what you get.)

It changes nothing, but Racak should make people wary of government propaganda about areas where they have little knowledge, but strong feelings. Remember the emotions generated about "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo?

At the end of World War II, the population of Kosovo was 50-50 Serb and Albanian. By 1999 it was 90% Albanian. Today, it´s close to 96%. Over 50 years, who´s been "ethnically cleansed"? Today, Albanians in Macedonia are using arguments similar to those used against Serbs in Kosovo - prejudice, being frozen from jobs, discriminated against. Rarely mentioned are maps produced in Albania that show not only Kosovo, but parts of Macedonia and Montenegro as part of "Greater Albania."

It doesn´t take an Einstein to realize that the U.S., NATO and western media have been conned and manipulated into supporting an aggressive exercise in nation-building that is not likely to be resolved peaceably. NATO´s beleaguered soldiers are innocents caught in a Balkan quagmire, thanks to a blundering, myopic, vainglorious political leader.

Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:15
This article uses outdated arguments that were used by Milosevic during the trial. The gunpowder evidence was negated because, as Ranta stated," they were based on a paraffin test which had been used already in the 1930s, and which she did not consider reliable." As the 2003 trial showed. In fact, bullets were discovered under the bodies. Meaning that these people were shot while they were prostrate.

I have found no evidence in the initial report that the clothing was changed. This most likely comes from Serbian claims. If the bodies were actually changed, then why wouldnt the forensics be able to see some disparity between the hours they were dead and the actual hours?

At the end of World War II, the population of Kosovo was 50-50 Serb and Albanian.


This has been dealt with extensively in our past discussion. You fail to note that this 50-50 came as a result of extensive resettlement programs that brought in Montenegrins and Serbs into Kosovo while also expelling Albanians. This was shown in a series of articles you can find here: www.elsie.de/pdf/B2002GatheringClouds.pdf

The actual demographic when Serbia took over was about 69% Albanian. This was after a series of events inwhich Serbs fled Kosovo and Albanians were expelled out of areas north of Kosovo(the Muhaxhers)

Ranta gave a press conference at which she was vague, admitting there was no evidence of mutilation or torture, and that Yugoslav authorities had co-operated.


Actually, Serbs had taken a large number of evidence away, including the bullets inside the bodies of those killed.

PS: The article you posted is not the 2007 report. Its an article.

Denying the Racak killings has been the goal of pretty much anyone who wants to attack Clinton, America or NATO. Its been denied by Yugoslavia since the accusation first sprang up. But your statement about the world denying it is wrong. Almost all major international organizations have come out and condemned the massacres, acknowledging them. So as of yet it remains a recognized massacre, and a hoax to articles with an agenda.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 16-Jun-2008 at 08:26
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:25
"This article uses outdated arguments that were used by Milosevic during the trial. The gunpowder evidence was negated because, as Ranta stated," they were based on a paraffin test which had been used already in the 1930s, and which she did not consider reliable." As the 2003 trial showed. In fact, bullets were discovered under the bodies. Meaning that these people were shot while they were prostrate."

How does bullets under the body mean they were shot while prostrate? It doesn't even matter since the UN forensic teams already explained there is no massacre but I want to see how your logic works.
 
"This has been dealt with extensively in our past discussion. You fail to note that this 50-50 came as a result of extensive resettlement programs that brought in Montenegrins and Serbs into Kosovo while also expelling Albanians"

Actually comrade Marshall Tito ;) didn't allow Serbs to return to Kosovo. So nice try again?
 
And pray tell how did the Albanians become a majority in Kosovo? How did they get there in the first place? Perks for serving the axis? Are you aware of the methods used?
 
"Actually, Serbs had taken a large number of evidence away, including the bullets inside the bodies of those killed. "

Right right, well maybe you take a large number of edivence in another way. In a way that doesn't agree with the forensic team so your opinion is really moot at best.
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:26
"PS: The article you posted is not the 2007 report. Its an article."

When you get a chance to read it, you'll see that it explains why there isn't a report.
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:37

How does bullets under the body mean they were shot while prostrate? It doesn't even matter since the UN forensic teams already explained there is no massacre but I want to see how your logic works.


As you have brought me no actual evidence of the report, just countless articles. But anyway, as Helena Ranta stated at the official trial, if bullets enter a standing body(which is fighting) they will fly away. If the body is prostate, then the bullets enter the body and go right under it. Its not a major science. Bullets were found right under the bodies of those killed, as, again, Ranta stated during an official trial.

And the team was also prevented from looking at evidence that was removed from the bodies: "In January 1999, during the medicolegal investigations in Pristina, the Team’s access to any foreign objects discovered and removed from the bodies, was surprisingly restricted." http://citycellar.com/BalkanWitness/Racak-FET-summary.htm#_ftn2

And pray tell how did the Albanians become a majority in Kosovo? How did they get there in the first place? Perks for serving the axis? Are you aware of the methods used?


Albanians had higher birthrates then Serbs. Im not going to get into the rest because this has been dealt with in another topic. Go read through it and then comment. I will not repeat myself.

As of now Im done repeating myself. You have yet to actually provide this 2007 report. That Toranto sun report that you posted is older then the Helena Ranta testimony, its a 2001 report, so I dont so how it has any significance.

Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 08:51
"As you have brought me no actual evidence of the report, just countless articles. But anyway, as Helena Ranta stated at the official trial, if bullets enter a standing body(which is fighting) they will fly away. If the body is prostate, then the bullets enter the body and go right under it. Its not a major science. Bullets were found right under the bodies of those killed, as, again, Ranta stated during an official trial."
 
All fine, it doesn't change the fact that all (or all but one at best) say there was no massacre. But I pose a question to you. If one were to frame the massacre, would it be too hard to come up with an idea such as simply putting bullets below the people killed, or heck, let's really rack our brains, maybe even shoot the already dead bodies?
 
"And the team was also prevented from looking at evidence that was removed from the bodies: "In January 1999, during the medicolegal investigations in Pristina, the Team’s access to any foreign objects discovered and removed from the bodies, was surprisingly restricted.""
 
And who prevented them? Again still outdated but go ahead and tell us.
 
"Albanians had higher birthrates then Serbs. Im not going to get into the rest because this has been dealt with in another topic. Go read through it and then comment. I will not repeat myself."

That is part of it, but the main reason is because the Nazi Albanians slaughtered Serb civilians during WW2 and during Tito's reign Serbs were not allowed to return to Kosovo. At the same time he opened the boarder with Albania in an attempt to absorb it into his communist regime. So please, don't give me "higher birth rates" as the sole reason. You don't go from 50 percent to 96 in less then half a century simply like that. I'm not going to read 30 or whatever plus pages of the other thread you post in. If you have a point make it, if not i'll just assume you have none to make.
 
"As of now Im done repeating myself. You have yet to actually provide this 2007 report. That Toranto sun report that you posted is older then the Helena Ranta testimony, its a 2001 report, so I dont so how it has any significance."
 
I explained why there is no report. Or better yet the article did. We have her quoted in various news papers saying the same thing.
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 09:08
At the same time he opened the boarder with Albania in an attempt to absorb it into his communist regime


This is a claim that I have seen not one shred of evidence. Hell even Belgrade has never made the claim, only journalists.

hat is part of it, but the main reason is because the Nazi Albanians slaughtered Serb civilians during WW2 and during Tito's reign Serbs were not allowed to return to Kosovo.


Those targeted were almost entirely colonists that were planted there during the 20-30's period. During that time nearly 10,000 Albanians died and many thousands were expelled. But, as I will say one more time, we have dealt with this before so this convo is useless. You didnt even look at the article I posted yet, gathering clouds is a revealing look at what was going on in Kosova during the Serb takeover. Thousands of Albanians were relocated into Albania during this period.

Anyway, this is my final post about this. This is available for you to read in the other topic.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 16-Jun-2008 at 09:15
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 09:24
"This is a claim that I have seen not one shred of evidence. Hell even Belgrade has never made the claim, only journalists. "
 
It's a pretty easy well known fact. And denying them is like denying Stalin's expantionistic goals and the likes. If you can't see it look harder.
 
"Those targeted were almost entirely colonists that were planted there during the 20-30's period. "

Yes i'm sure the Nazi Albanian Waffen SS Skanderbeg blessed by the Mufti of Jerusalem, really took the time to figure out who was a "colonist" and who was not. And how can you be a colonist in your own country?
 
"During that time nearly 10,000 Albanians died and many thousands were expelled."

During what time ww2? Sorry but no one in Serbia could have done this. They were busy fighting against the axis unlike others, and I doubt Draza much gave a damn about the Albanian minority in Kosovo. Serbia had the full weight of the axis falling down on it, its army as a stand up fighting force did not exist. So I doubt they expelled and killed thousands of Albanians. This is fantasy land and you're riding a unicorn through it when you say such things.
 
"But, as I will say one more time, we have dealt with this before so this convo is useless."

You havn't dealt with me discussing the convo but I can understand you not wanting to proceed any further, but I hope that you do.
 
"You didnt even look at the article I posted yet, gathering clouds is a revealing look at what was going on in Kosova during the Serb takeover. Thousands of Albanians were relocated into Albania during this period."

I did and I already told you, Serbs weren't allowed to go back into Kosovo. Again Tito wanted Albania to be part of Yugoslavia so what would be the point of doing that?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 17:44
And yes B92 is well known to be general western ass kissers, pro tadic sell outs.


.....

So Tadic is a sell out for a person who has never even been in Serbia? Laughable. From what I seen he is seen as someone more rational and not a mad-man nor an ass kisser. He won't ruin his nation for no reason, but he has not been friendly towards reconciling an independent kosovo either.
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 18:59
It's a pretty easy well known fact. And denying them is like denying Stalin's expantionistic goals and the likes. If you can't see it look harder.


Its not a fact because its never been proven.

Yes i'm sure the Nazi Albanian Waffen SS Skanderbeg blessed by the Mufti of Jerusalem, really took the time to figure out who was a "colonist" and who was not. And how can you be a colonist in your own country?


Serbia didnt have the demographic advantage when it first entered Kosovo so, like it did earlier in other parts, it granted land to Serb colonists from Montenegro. This went on from 1912 to the beginning of the first WW and then from the first WW to the start of the second. It was during WWII that Albanians started revenge attacks against those colonists Serbia brought in. Tito didnt allow Serbs who had been planted in Kosovo to return.

During what time ww2? Sorry but no one in Serbia could have done this. They were busy fighting against the axis unlike others, and I doubt Draza much gave a damn about the Albanian minority in Kosovo. Serbia had the full weight of the axis falling down on it, its army as a stand up fighting force did not exist. So I doubt they expelled and killed thousands of Albanians. This is fantasy land and you're riding a unicorn through it when you say such things.


The massacres happened in 1912-1914. British Red Cross workers in Albania attested to the large number of refugees and even older Albanians themselves will attest to how their grandfathers had to take in Kosovar refugees.

You havn't dealt with me discussing the convo but I can understand you not wanting to proceed any further, but I hope that you do.


Dont patronize me, as I stated, I have discussed this before with someone before, repeating it here is simpy just exhausting and boring me.

Again Tito wanted Albania to be part of Yugoslavia so what would be the point of doing that?


1. This was only for a very very short period of time. The breakup happened quickly, well before any Albanian would have known that living under Tito was going to be much better. There was no large scale immigration. It would have even been difficult if you know what the path was like then from north Albania to Kosova. It wasnt flat terrain. I know of only one case where people from Albania were stuck and that is the people of the region of Luma, which is right next to Kosova, they had a market they went to in Kosova and so many were stuck when the borders closed. The zone next to the borders then became the site of a major labor camp in Albania... it was guarded highly to say the least.

The only fantasy I have seen so far is the claims of Albanians being recent immigrants. The vast number of Albanians there have been in Kosova for a number of generations already.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 16-Jun-2008 at 19:10
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 21:12
"So Tadic is a sell out for a person who has never even been in Serbia? Laughable. From what I seen he is seen as someone more rational and not a mad-man nor an ass kisser. He won't ruin his nation for no reason, but he has not been friendly towards reconciling an independent kosovo either."
 
You don't need to be there to figure it out. When he goes to Croatia and said what he said it's quite obvious. When he can't get a majority coalition and he threatens to make a parralel government I really have to wonder if his interests are for who is paying his salary or for the country.
 
"Its not a fact because its never been proven."
 
Never been proven? Then why would Tito not allow Serb refugees to return to Kosovo while opening the boarder with Albania via Kosovo?
 
"Serbia didnt have the demographic advantage when it first entered Kosovo so, like it did earlier in other parts, it granted land to Serb colonists from Montenegro. This went on from 1912 to the beginning of the first WW and then from the first WW to the start of the second. It was during WWII that Albanians started revenge attacks against those colonists Serbia brought in. Tito didnt allow Serbs who had been planted in Kosovo to return."
 
When they first entered Kosovo? What date is that? You are very vague in your dating.
 
What colonists? Again you repeating it doesn't make it true.
 
In any case even if it was 50/50 high birthrate doesn't explain how they become a majority.
 
Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1973, Vol 13, Page 479
(quote):
Kosovo-Metohija (Kosmet), an autonomous region of Serbia, Yugoslavia. Population (1961) 963,988, of whom the majority are Albanian-speaking Shqipetars.
(End quote)
Collier's Encyclopedia, Edition 1993, Vol 23, p 726
(qoute):
Kosovo, also known as Kosovo-Metohija..., an area on the south of the Republic of Serbia, southern Yugoslavia. Densely populated, Kosovo had 1,954,747 inhabitants in 1991. The largest group are Albanians (77 percent), Serbs (13 percent), Bosnian Muslims (4 percent), Roma (2 percent), and Montenegrins (2 percent).
(end quote)
So you had an over 100% birthrate? No sorry I don't think so.
 
"The massacres happened in 1912-1914. British Red Cross workers in Albania attested to the large number of refugees and even older Albanians themselves will attest to how their grandfathers had to take in Kosovar refugees."

Source? Perhaps I can refer you to an author, Michael Lees.
 
"Dont patronize me, as I stated, I have discussed this before with someone before, repeating it here is simpy just exhausting and boring me."

I think that is very sad actually, that me, an outsider can take more interest in history that you are part of then you.
 
"1. This was only for a very very short period of time. The breakup happened quickly, well before any Albanian would have known that living under Tito was going to be much better. There was no large scale immigration. It would have even been difficult if you know what the path was like then from north Albania to Kosova. It wasnt flat terrain. I know of only one case where people from Albania were stuck and that is the people of the region of Luma, which is right next to Kosova, they had a market they went to in Kosova and so many were stuck when the borders closed. The zone next to the borders then became the site of a major labor camp in Albania... it was guarded highly to say the least."
 
What was for a very very short period of time? What break up?
 
There wasn't a large scale imigration? Could you explain how you have a 100% increase in your population in just 30 or so years? And how do you know Tito didn't allow these supposed "colonists" to go back?
 
Take for example in the 1500s the Albanian population of Kosovo was 1.8 percent. These numbers are usually criticized because it doesn't take into account some of the mountain village. But even if we move the decimal over one spot and make it 18 percent that is far from a majority. Every time the Serbs rebelled, their lands were taken away and given to the Muslim Albanians. So this story is nothing new.
 
"The only fantasy I have seen so far is the claims of Albanians being recent immigrants. The vast number of Albanians there have been in Kosova for a number of generations already. "

Oh no not recent. WW2 happened a while ago where many Serbs were slaughtered and displaced. At the end of WW2 i'd say Albanians had a majority because of that. And then with Tito's plan they filled in the rest.
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 21:35
Source? Perhaps I can refer you to an author, Michael Lees.


I brought you articles contemporary to the events, they are up above. The refugee problem is a well known event that occurred in Albania as at that time King Zog was planning of settling these people in the south of the country, so as to make the south purely Albanian. Many of them settled in southern portions of the country, others in the more northern part.

What was for a very very short period of time? What break up?


The fall out between Tito and Hoxha. The two became bitter enemies very quickly as Hoxha hated Tito's version of Socialism. There was a short stint in the period immediately followed WWII when they were close, but this relationship was torn pretty quickly. Hoxha allied with Stalin, who also opposed Tito.

When they first entered Kosovo? What date is that? You are very vague in your dating.


1912 was when Serbia entered Kosovo.

Never been proven? Then why would Tito not allow Serb refugees to return to Kosovo while opening the boarder with Albania via Kosovo?


Like I said, it was because many were colonists. Although I havent read any edict yet that mentions this restriction. If an original document could be presented by one of the authors of historians, it would be nice.

The border opening was because he hoped to attract Albania by uniting it with Kosovo, but like I said, this was a short stint as Hoxha didnt want to relinquish power. Some people were stuck on both sides, but this was mostly in the very south of Kosovo which had a market linked to northern Albania. This region of northern Albania has always been underpopulated, so not many immigrants could have come from that spot.

What colonists? Again you repeating it doesn't make it true.


If you read the documents I presented instead of ignoring them you would nt be in such a flux right now: www.elsie.de/pdf/B2002GatheringClouds.pdf

The colonists were brought over mostly from Montenegro. This occurred during the Kingdom period. Thousands of Albanians during this period were also shipped off to Turkey, where they have remained ever since. These are part of what was called the Muhaxhers.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 16-Jun-2008 at 21:38
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 22:13
"I brought you articles contemporary to the events, they are up above. The refugee problem is a well known event that occurred in Albania as at that time King Zog was planning of settling these people in the south of the country, so as to make the south purely Albanian. Many of them settled in southern portions of the country, others in the more northern part. "
 
Your article is crap and apologetic to the Waffen SS. Perhaps next you can give me an article by some Ante Pavelic lover discribing the WW2 Serb genocide against the Croatians too? Now who is patronizing who?
 
"The fall out between Tito and Hoxha. The two became bitter enemies very quickly as Hoxha hated Tito's version of Socialism. There was a short stint in the period immediately followed WWII when they were close, but this relationship was torn pretty quickly. Hoxha allied with Stalin, who also opposed Tito. "
 
You seem to be confused because no where did I say that Hoxha wanted to be part of Yugoslavia. Tito did this because Yugoslavia had better living conditions. He wanted to twist Albania's arm into it more or less.
 
"1912 was when Serbia entered Kosovo. "
 
They had been majority since the early 1900s and at least 500 years before that.
 

Miss Mary E. Durham, an Englishwomen, travelled across the Serb lands and gave the impressions in her book "Through the Lands of the Serb". She visited Montenegro, Serbia and Old Serbia. The chapters directly related to Montenegro are available for reading online. The map is also available. Miss Durham dedicated the book to her mother. The book was published in London, in 1904, by Edward Arnold and printed in Edinburgh by Morrison and Gibb Ltd.
 
 
Few decade later things became extremely bad..Torture under christian Serbs continued..

The Kosovo Vilayet
In 1877, Ottoman Turkey created the Vilayet or province of Kosovo, or “Kossovo”- which consisted of the sandzak or district of Skopje, or Uskub, in Macedonia, and the sandzaks of Prizren in Kosovo and Novi Pazar in the Sandzak or Rashka region of Serbia.

The Albanian leaders of the 1878 League of Prizren, when the Greater Albania ideology was formulated, demanded that Turkey attach or annex the vilayet of Kosovo to a Greater Albania. The Ottoman Turkish government rejected the creation of a Greater Albania, which resulted in an Albanian insurgency to expel the Turks and to create a Greater Albania on their own.

The British Consul in Albania, Sir William Kirby-Green, described the Prizren League in an 1880 report as follows:
“[T]he Albanian League is an organization of the most fanatical Muslims in the country. Those people are now taken up with extreme religious fanaticism and hatred of Christians. With the exception perhaps of Mecca, Prizren is the most dangerous spot for a Christian to be in all Mohammedan countries.”
The goal to create a Greater Albania failed when Turkish military forces put down the rebellion. The Greater Albania ideology, however, endured and evolved.

In 1905, the population of the Kosovo vilayet was approximately 1,100,000.

The total area of the vilayet was 12,700 sq. m.

The population consisted of Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Greeks, Turks, Vlachs, and Roma. There were good roads that ran through Skopje and a railway from Salonika that ran north and divided at Skopje, the capital of the vilayet. One branch traversed to Kosovska Mitrovica and the other to Nis in Serbia.

The vilayet was rich in minerals and there were many mines.
In 1907, there were two chrome mines in the vilayet, at Orasje and Verbestica, near Strpce in southern Kosovo.
 
"The border opening was because he hoped to attract Albania by uniting it with Kosovo, but like I said, this was a short stint as Hoxha didnt want to relinquish power. Some people were stuck on both sides, but this was mostly in the very south of Kosovo which had a market linked to northern Albania. This region of northern Albania has always been underpopulated, so not many immigrants could have come from that spot."

This is what i've been saying. Tito wanted to absorb Albania. I didn't say Hoxha wanted togo along willingly. So you yourself admit Tito's goal to absorb Albania into Yugoslavia.
 
"If you read the documents I presented instead of ignoring them you would nt be in such a flux right now: www.elsie.de/pdf/B2002GatheringClouds.pdf
 
The colonists were brought over mostly from Montenegro. This occurred during the Kingdom period. Thousands of Albanians during this period were also shipped off to Turkey, where they have remained ever since. These are part of what was called the Muhaxhers."

This is pure crap. "The Serbs believe it is their god given right to ethnicly cleanse all non serbs." This is pure rubbish. Stupidity on the level of the magyar-gardra. Racist indoctrinated non-sense. It throws all sense of objectivity out the door in the first couple of paragraphs.
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 22:33
The Albanian leaders of the 1878 League of Prizren, when the Greater Albania ideology was formulated, demanded that Turkey attach or annex the vilayet of Kosovo to a Greater Albania. The Ottoman Turkish government rejected the creation of a Greater Albania, which resulted in an Albanian insurgency to expel the Turks and to create a Greater Albania on their own.


I dont know what source you got this from but its seriously diluted. In 1878 there was no Albania as a state; thus there could not have been a greater Albania. This concept only came about after numerous Albanian inhabited regions were excluded from what is today called Albania: Ulcin in Montenegro, Kosova, and parts of Macedonia. The League of Prizren was a league formulated by the landed elite Albanians of the Ottoman Empire for the securing of their land against a common foe. The league didnt quite work as regional politics continued to dominate. The hope was that Albs should unite in the face of a growing threat: the continual expansion of Greece and Serbia and the increasing western and Russian penetration into the Balkans. The Turks attacked it because they feared that it would lead to great Albanian national awareness.

This is pure crap. "The Serbs believe it is their god given right to ethnicly cleanse all non serbs." This is pure rubbish. Stupidity on the level of the magyar-gardra. Racist indoctrinated non-sense. It throws all sense of objectivity out the door in the first couple of paragraphs.


They are contemporary articles, not modern day ones. These are essentially primary documents. You can attack the language as you please, but the events described are real. Among them there are Danish, German and Romanian reports.

They had been majority since the early 1900s and at least 500 years before that.


What was once is no more. What does that mean if they were the majority 500 years ago? That was 500 years ago.

This is what i've been saying. Tito wanted to absorb Albania. I didn't say Hoxha wanted togo along willingly. So you yourself admit Tito's goal to absorb Albania into Yugoslavia.


This was a well known fact, what isnt a fact is the claim that there was this mass rush of Albanians into Kosova. Thats as fictional as the unicorn. The actual migrations could not have been on a large number, they were more probably local and mostly from those that descended from Kosovar families that fled to Albania during the 1930's.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 16-Jun-2008 at 22:49
Back to Top
vranakonti View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jun-2007
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 23:28

This is pure crap. "The Serbs believe it is their god given right to ethnicly cleanse all non serbs." This is pure rubbish. Stupidity on the level of the magyar-gardra. Racist indoctrinated non-sense. It throws all sense of objectivity out the door in the first couple of paragraphs.

Let see an article from a wellknown serbian scholar:
 
1944 Vaso Cubrilovic:The Minority Problem in the New Yugoslavia: Memorandum
 
"The Minority Problem in the New Yugoslavia," is a second memorandum on the Albanians (and other minorities) written by the noted Bosnian Serb scholar and political figure Vaso Cubrilovic (1897-1990).
 
Reasons Why the Minority Problem in Yugoslavia Must be Solved
 
The democratic federation of Yugoslavia will only achieve peace and ensure its development if it can be made ethnically pure and if, by solving its minority problems, it can remove the causes of friction with neighbouring states once and for all.
 
 I have given deliberate priority to the Vojvodina and to Old Serbia (Kosovo), considering that these two regions represent the crux of our minority problem
 
After examining why the cleansing of minorities is necessary, let us now see what options are available for carrying out the task. In actual fact, conditions for implementation are quite favourable. In 1918, Europe held the view that the minority problem could be solved by giving privileges to such groups. The experience of this war has proven to all of Europe that this approach was wrong.
 
How to Solve the Minority Problem in the New Yugoslavia

If we take the stand, as we do, that the only just solution to the minority problem is expulsion, we are faced with a number of issues which have to be dealt with. Should all minorities be expelled or only certain ethnic groups? From which regions should ethnic minorities be expelled first? And what is more important, how are we to resettle the deserted towns and villages? I have a few suggestions to make in this connection.

As to priorities for expulsion, I hold the opinion that we should consider the following order: the Germans, the Hungarians, the Albanians, the Italians and the Romanians
 
Nonetheless, if we wish to solve the minority problem, we will have to take over Backa, Kosovo and Metohija in ethnic terms and drive out hundreds of thousands of Hungarians and Albanians
 
We must be more straightforward and practical in dealing with the Albanians in Old Serbia (Kosovo) and Macedonia in order to conquer Kosovo and Metohija ethnically and, at the same time, avoid a conflict with the neighbouring people in Albania.
 
 
What colonists? Again you repeating it doesn't make it true.
 
This quote is also from Cubrilovics memorandum:
From 1918 to 1938, the Albanians increased their numbers in Kosovo and Metohija more by natural growth than we were able to do by bringing in settlers. Driving our colonists out of Backa, Kosovo and Metohija, the Hungarians and Albanians were thus able to cancel out the few results we obtained.
 
 
 

 




Edited by vranakonti - 16-Jun-2008 at 23:29
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 02:41
"I dont know what source you got this from but its seriously diluted. In 1878 there was no Albania as a state; thus there could not have been a greater Albania. This concept only came about after numerous Albanian inhabited regions were excluded from what is today called Albania: Ulcin in Montenegro, Kosova, and parts of Macedonia. The League of Prizren was a league formulated by the landed elite Albanians of the Ottoman Empire for the securing of their land against a common foe. The league didnt quite work as regional politics continued to dominate. The hope was that Albs should unite in the face of a growing threat: the continual expansion of Greece and Serbia and the increasing western and Russian penetration into the Balkans. The Turks attacked it because they feared that it would lead to great Albanian national awareness. "
 
You're playing samantics now. We established that Albania came into existance as a nation in 1912. The League of Prizren was a group of fanatics that wanted to throw the Turks off and gain a bunch of land in the process. I think William who was actually there at the time knew what he was talking about.
 
"They are contemporary articles, not modern day ones. These are essentially primary documents. You can attack the language as you please, but the events described are real. Among them there are Danish, German and Romanian reports."
 
You are misusing contemporary I think.
 
 
of the present time; modern: a lecture on the contemporary novel.
 
And during that time in 99, even I was against the Serbs. I believed they were ethnicly cleansing maniacs. But when I did the research with all the facts laid on the table i saw who really did what. I didn't care that civilians were hit with cluster bombs in belgrade, so what I said as I watched it on the news. So i've been where you are and perhaps further, have you been where I have been?
 
"What was once is no more. What does that mean if they were the majority 500 years ago? That was 500 years ago."

I said it reached back 500 years ago. But at the start of the 1900s the Albanians were not a majority. And I think you should echo your words to a few of your countrymen because based on the shakey Illyrian theory many Albanians who I speak to feel entitled to get the lands back that their supposed ancestors. If we use that logic, then i'm entitled to everything from Britania to Persia.
 
And what if Albanians are majority in Kosovo? So what? What gives them the right to pick a plot of land and say they are majority there and that it belongs to them. If I bring 3 romanians and go into your kitchen, then we become the majority in your kitchen. Are we then allowed to break away and form our own house?
 
Or here is another question, why are the Serbs in the Serb majority sections of Kosovo not allowed to break away? Double standards? Or what about the Serbs in Bosnia?
 
What about 1244? Here is the interesting thing. In September or so the entire UN will vote on if Kosovo is to be another Albanian country or not. This time the Serbs will be allowed to present their case. So far out of 192 UN member nations, only 28 or so have recognized Kosovo. Whatever the UN votes, will be law and those who do not follow it will simply be kicked out of the UN. I gotta be honest with you comrade, it isn't looking good for Thaci and the KLA government.
 
"This was a well known fact, what isnt a fact is the claim that there was this mass rush of Albanians into Kosova. Thats as fictional as the unicorn. The actual migrations could not have been on a large number, they were more probably local and mostly from those that descended from Kosovar families that fled to Albania during the 1930's."

I already showed you the Britannica quote. In 20 or 30 years the Albanian population jumped 100%+ percent. That isn't due to birth rate. That is migration.
 
"Let see an article from a wellknown serbian scholar"
 
Written 1944. Well let's see. The Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians and Romanians were all axis (Though Romania's goal wasn't the same as the previous 3 nations.) and what did those nations do? Well Croats and Bosniaks and Albanians all formed Waffen SS units and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Serbs. The Romanians offered no help. I think i'd be pissed enough in that situation that I wouldn't much disagree with Vaso.
 
Little tip for you, read something other then "albanianhistory.net"
 
"This quote is also from Cubrilovics memorandum"

It is their country. Serbs can move wherever they wanted to. And thank you for the quote. It explains my point exactly. The Albanians forced the Serbs to leave. Just because they are "colonists" didn't give the Albanians the right to force them out, to kill and to harrass.
Back to Top
vranakonti View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jun-2007
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 06:14

Written 1944. Well let's see. The Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians and Romanians were all axis (Though Romania's goal wasn't the same as the previous 3 nations.) and what did those nations do? Well Croats and Bosniaks and Albanians all formed Waffen SS units and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Serbs. The Romanians offered no help. I think i'd be pissed enough in that situation that I wouldn't much disagree with Vaso.

 

Like always you don’t read carefully,others ,posts. Here it is a phrase from Cubrilovics 1944 memorandum ,that was quoted in my previous post:

 

As to priorities for expulsion, I hold the opinion that we should consider the following order: the Germans, the Hungarians, the Albanians, the Italians and the Romanians

 

Of course you don’t know Cubrilovic,because in that case you would understand that his goal was the creation of an ethnically pure Greater Serbia,and that of the collaboration  with Germany was just an excuse.

 

To help you understand things better ill show you another memorandum, again from Cubrilovic,but this time in 1937,there were no Nazis in Yugoslavia when he wrote this one.

The title is self-explanatory :

 

1937 Vaso Cubrilovic:The Expulsion of the Albanians – Memorandum

 

Some quotes:

In the first part he complains with the bad job his government is doing in the colonization process:

 

The fundamental mistake made by the authorities in charge at that time was that, forgetting where they were, they wanted to solve all the major ethnic problems of the troubled and bloody Balkans by Western methods

 

The result has been negative, as evident from the statistics of the eighteen districts which make up the Albanian triangle. These figures show that the natural growth of the Albanian population in these regions is still greater than the total increase in our population from both natural growth and new settlers (from 1921 to 1931, the Albanian population increased by 68,060, while the Serbs showed an increase of 58,745, i.e. a difference of 9,315 in favour of the Albanians).

 

Even the strategy of gradual colonization was not properly applied. Worse still in a matter of such importance, there was no specific state plan for every government and regime to adhere to and implement. Work was intermittent, in fits and starts, with each new minister undoing what his predecessor had done and himself creating nothing solid.

 

Than he explains how to get rid of Albanians:

 

Even those few thousand families who were settled after the war did not remain where they were originally located. There was more success in Kosovo, especially in the Lab / Llap valley, where the Toplicans penetrated of their own accord from north to south. Our oldest and most stable settlements there were established with elements from various Serbian regions. In Drenica and Metohija we had no success at all. Colonization should never be carried out with Montenegrins alone.

 

Without doubt, the main cause for the lack of success in our colonization of these regions was that the best land remained in the hands of the Albanians. The only possible means for our mass colonization of these regions to succeed is for us to take the land away from them.

 

Here he explains past successful experiences,the ethnic cleansing of Novi Pazar and Niss (today south Serbia) from the Albanian element

 

The problem of the Sandjak of Novi Pazar is solving itself and no longer plays the role it did in the life of our country before 1912. Let it suffice to mention that with the elimination of the Albanians, the last link between our Moslems in Bosnia and Novi Pazar and the rest of the Moslem world will have been cut. They are becoming a religious minority, the only Moslem minority in the Balkans, and this fact will accelerate their assimilation.

 

Other quotes:

 

  The Albanians cannot be dispelled by means of gradual colonization alone. They are the only people who, over the last millennium, managed not only to resist the nucleus of our state, Rashka and Zeta, but also to harm us by pushing our ethnic borders northwards and eastwards.

 

With its sparse population, its many undrained swamps and uncultivated valleys, Albania would have no difficulty admitting some hundred thousand Albanians from our country. With its vast and uninhabited frontiers in Asia Minor and Kurdistan, modern Turkey, for its part, offers seemingly unlimited opportunities for internal colonization. Despite efforts on the part of Kemal Atatürk, the Turks have not yet been able to fill the vacuum created by the evacuation of the Greeks from Asia Minor to Greece and of some of the Kurds to Persia. Hence, the greatest possibilities lie in sending the bulk of our displaced Albanians there.

 

We have heard that Turkey has agreed, initially, to accept about 200,000 of our displaced persons on condition that they are Albanians, something which is most advantageous to us.

 

Agitators, especially from Turkey, must be found as quickly as possible to promote the evacuation, if Turkey will provide them for us. They must laud the beauties of the new territories in Turkey and the easy and pleasant life to be had there, and must kindle religious fanaticism among the masses and awaken pride in the Turkish state.

 

Another means would be coercion by the state apparatus. The law must be enforced to the letter so as to make staying intolerable for the Albanians: fines, imprisonment, the ruthless application of all police regulations, such as the prohibition of smuggling, cutting forests, damaging agriculture, leaving dogs unchained, compulsory labour and any other measure that an experienced police force can contrive. From the economic aspect, this should include the refusal to recognize old land deeds.

 

There remains one more method Serbia employed with great practical effect after 1878, that is, secretly razing Albanian villages and urban settlements to the ground.

 

This is the link for those interested in knowing more

 

http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH1937_1.html

 

This is the link for Carpathian W,same thing but from another site,because he have a sort of phobia ,for Robert Elsie’s website.

 

http://www.aacl.com/expulsion2.html

 

Little tip for you, read something other then "albanianhistory.net"

 

 

As i said  before that is not an Albanian website,and is simply fantastic, made of plain historical documents,translated in English and not only,where the reader is free to read learn an why not judge,with his own head.

 

Ps.Read something,i mean in general.

 

It is their country. Serbs can move wherever they wanted to. And thank you for the quote. It explains my point exactly. The Albanians forced the Serbs to leave. Just because they are "colonists" didn't give the Albanians the right to force them out, to kill and to harrass.

 

Sure dear Serbian…sorry Carpathian wolf.At least you are indirectly admitting that there was a colonization .But if you still don’t i just brought some fresh(almost a century old indeed) and hard evidences.

 

Just kidding,I know its impossible to convince you,and this quote from  the Serbian writer Vladimir Arsenijevic explains why:

 

 

A few years ago the Serbian media reported for months on end on mass graves whose dead had been identified by forensic experts as Kosovo Albanians. One of the most horrific images was that of a refrigerated lorry out of which murdered Kosovo Albanian women, children and old people were disposed in Lake Perucac, near the mouth of the river Derventa. On our screens we saw half-decayed, clothed corpses being pulled out of the water, we heard the shocking confession of the driver, who had been told to transport the dead out of Kosovo in order to cover up the crime. At the time a Belgrade television station broadcast an interview with a man bathing untroubled in this beautiful lake from whose green waters the corpses had just been pulled. When the reporter asked whether this bothered him the simpleton stood there shaking his head as the water dripped off him. Blinking innocently and smiling laconically, he looked at the camera and said without turning a hair: "To be honest, I don't believe all that," and dived defiantly back into the water.

The guy is mad, you might think. But actually the opposite is the case. His reaction is absolutely understandable. Serbian citizens have a decade of brainwashing by politicians and the media behind them, a decade of lessons in how continuous lying can eventually make people believe their own lies. The bathing man was simply using that acquired skill.

 

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1582.html

Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 10>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.