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Tracing Jewish Ancestry
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herkk View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		  Quote herkk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tracing Jewish Ancestry
    Posted: 26-May-2008 at 22:26
I've seen this topic discussed many times, and it continues and continuous and continuous.

I've seen this topic discussed many times, and it continues and continuous and continuous.

In essence majority maintain today Jews have no connection to their ancestors, they are not real Jews(semitic). Some maintain they are Khazars(who converted to Judaism), and todays Jewish communities are their decedents.  Smile

Some say people living in the crescent are the real Jews, who converted to Christianity and then to Islam. Some maintain todays Palestinians are actually Canaanites (the original inhabitants).

Here's one I agree with as well. How can Jews be Blonde and have Blue eyes. It can not be contributed to genetic drift(as they weren't completely isolated and time period is too short, eg Roma people can still be ethnically differentiated even though they have been living for centuries).  Smile

Now before it becomes a knock out event as usual, facts must be backed up!   Cheers
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2008 at 03:32
To say that all Jews, or even all Ashenki (sp?) Jews are Khazars is definitely wrong. I'd be happy to saw that alot of east european jews are Khazars, but when you see an American-German Jew with features that can only be described as Palestinian they are almost certainly children of Israel.
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Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2008 at 09:53
Don't foreget that Jews were a closed community pretty much everywhere due to their peculiar beliefs that the rest people were not the chosen of God, thus marrying amongst each other.

It's natural though that there has been mix, they lived in Europe for two millenia after all 
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2008 at 10:01
AFAIK, askenazi jews are of european/khazar descent, while sephardim are actual palestinean jews.
The majority of jews today are askenazi, but there are many sephardim as well. The jews of Greece for example, who came from Spain in the 15th century, were mostly sephardim ("sepharadites" in greek).


Edited by xristar - 27-May-2008 at 10:03

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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2008 at 10:49
There was rarely if ever anything to gain (to put it mildly) from pretending to be Jewish in (Christian) Europe. So why should the ones who admitted being Jews have been anything else but Jewish?
 
Given the politics of the situation it's much more likely that many 'non-Jewish' people actually have Jewish ancestry that was hidden or denied somewhere along the way.
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2008 at 09:22
Actually it is assumed that between 300BC and 400AD, Judaism was spreading through conversion rather than migration (most of the Jews stayed in Palestine after 70). No problem in this case since Europe was not yet Christian 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2008 at 10:22
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Actually it is assumed that between 300BC and 400AD, Judaism was spreading through conversion rather than migration (most of the Jews stayed in Palestine after 70). No problem in this case since Europe was not yet Christian 
 
As I understand it most of the Jews had left Palestine before 70AD. (More accurately, there were more Jews outside Palestine than in it, and the largest Jewish city was Alexandria, and many Jews no longer understood Hebrew.) That's why the Septuagint was compiled, and why it was compiled in Alexandria.
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There was rarely if ever anything to gain (to put it mildly) from pretending to be Jewish in (Christian) Europe. So why should the ones who admitted being Jews have been anything else but Jewish?

Just because they are of Khazar/European decent in no-way implies they are pretending to be Jewish. They are jewish, they are just not Palestinian.
Originally posted by Marhabbal


Actually it is assumed that between 300BC and 400AD, Judaism was spreading through conversion rather than migration (most of the Jews stayed in Palestine after 70). No problem in this case since Europe was not yet Christian

I think you can extend that to 700/750AD. IIRC in the prophets time there was still alot of conversion to Judaism (in ME & Steppe at least, maybe not Christian areas where the Jews were subject to persecution).
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2008 at 15:02
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

There was rarely if ever anything to gain (to put it mildly) from pretending to be Jewish in (Christian) Europe. So why should the ones who admitted being Jews have been anything else but Jewish?

Just because they are of Khazar/European decent in no-way implies they are pretending to be Jewish. They are jewish, they are just not Palestinian.
I don't see how my post leads to that answer. I didn't say anyone was pretending to be Jewish, I said nobody would pretend to be Jewish who wasn't. There wouldn't be anything to gain, and a lot to lose.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote herkk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2008 at 17:12
Yes it has been speculated that most of Jews remained in Palestine but what evidence is there?
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2008 at 19:50
Originally posted by herkk

Yes it has been speculated that most of Jews remained in Palestine but what evidence is there?
 
I thought the generally held opinion was that most Jews lived outside Palestine from the Hellenistic period onward (not just in the Hellene world, but in Arabia, Mesopotamia, Persia etc.). I thought the first use of the word 'diaspora' in this regard was in the text of the Septuagint, which itself was commissioned so that non-Hebrew-speaking Jews outside Palestine could read the Tanakh.
The Jewish population in the first century of our era was, according to some estimates, four to four and a half million, or about seven percent of the total population of the Roman world. About seven hundred thousand Jews lived in Palestine, one million in Egypt, and even more in Syria, with some ten thousand in Rome. Jewish communities were to be found in most of the major cities of the empire. The Jewish dispersion, or diaspora, resulted from deportations, such as the Babylonian exile, and from migration.
 
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Posts: 1106 		  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 16:47
I agree with you Kerkk,Jews now have no connection with the old Jews I think we should consider a religion not a race for the following reasons:
After jewish migration from Egypt to palastine(giant land) they established their kingdom of Israel in 1030 B.C. under Saul as a king.

then the kingdom flourished under David and his son Solomon(PBUT) the kingdom splited into tow part after Solomon death the northern part called Israel the southern calle Judah.

the Begining of jews suffering:-

the last kings of Israel paid tribute to Assyrians,the Assyrians  destroyed the kingdom after the seige of Samaria 722-725 B.C,making Judah the sole remaining Hebrew kingdom.

The ten tribes were exiled to other parts of the Assyrian Empire and never heard from again in recorded history. A small group of people fled south to take refuge in Judah.

Kingdom of Judah lasted until 586 B.C,Jerusalem sacked twice the first in 597 B.C by Nebuchadrezzar after short rebelled king Jehoiachin took as prisonor with 1000 jews.

the second was the end of kingdom of Judah and the destruction of the Temple of Solomon,Daniel the prophet captured with 40000 jews.

In Roman era the First Jewish-Roamn war begun ,ended with the fall and destruction of Jerusalem.

In 115 the jews revolted in mesopotamia the revolt called kitos war ended with final Roman victory under emperor Trajan.

Bar Kokhbas revolt (132-135 CE) against the Roman Empire, also known as The Second Jewish-Roman War.
was a second major rebellion by the Jews of Iudaea,Emperor Hadrian visited the ruins of Jerusalem. At first sympathetic towards the Jews, Hadrian promised to rebuild the city, but the Jews felt betrayed when they found out that his intentions were to rebuild the Jewish holiest city as a pagan metropolis, and a new pagan temple on the ruins of the Second Temple was to be dedicated to Jupiter.

After that the revolt begun and another dispora occured too.

 Another massacre in the first Crusade,France ,Germany,Poland and the Spanish Inquisition without mentioning details.

and Adolf hitler's final solution which led to the Holocaust 1939-1945.

after all these wars,massacres,disporas,destruction and exiles do you think the jews as a race still exist?

I don't think so and don't get me wrong, I think the jewish is a religion now like Islam or Christian have no limit for a race or special people.

 As we see there are black jew,white,yellow and other then how we can say the jew is a race not a religion
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Posts: 127 		  Quote DesertHistorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 19:19
Just a comment on an aspect of the jewish people that may not be of great concern, though it is interesting and it is something of a side to what you all are discussing. Here in New Mexico part of the Southwestern USA they have come to find that there are a number of people who were Sephardic Jews in Spain in the 1500's and 1600's that were forced to convert to Christianity or die and then as opportunities arose to come to the New World they left in groups and settled especially in Mexico and New Mexico in small communities. They eventually lost their "jewish" identity although they maintained certain traditions which they could not completely reconcile with Christian traditions. As certain types of genetic issues came up through illnesses etc., and DNA technology advanced they found that many of these people that thought they were of Spanish descent were actually more Sephardic jew than anything else. They refer to themselves as crypto-jews because their ancestors hid the fact that they were jewish. Supposedly, there are a number of these people throughout much of the former Spanish colonies in the Americas, though I do not know if other countries are spending as much time on the issue as they are here in New Mexico.
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Posts: 88 		  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 13:09
Hebrew was learnt and used through out the centuries in the diaspora, and in the holy land.
 
as the bible and the prays are written in Hebrew ,there was aneed to know Hebrew and to use some pharses during every day life aside the local used language. most of the childern were sent to learn Hebrew at the age of 3.
 
Hebrew saw revival several times,and masses/poetry/literature were written in Hebrew centuries ago, like at the golden age of middle ages spain.
 
 
 


Edited by Hebrewtext - 03-Jun-2008 at 13:12
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Originally posted by DesertHistorian

Just a comment on an aspect of the jewish people that may not be of great concern, though it is interesting and it is something of a side to what you all are discussing. Here in New Mexico part of the Southwestern USA they have come to find that there are a number of people who were Sephardic Jews in Spain in the 1500's and 1600's that were forced to convert to Christianity or die and then as opportunities arose to come to the New World they left in groups and settled especially in Mexico and New Mexico in small communities. They eventually lost their "jewish" identity although they maintained certain traditions which they could not completely reconcile with Christian traditions. As certain types of genetic issues came up through illnesses etc., and DNA technology advanced they found that many of these people that thought they were of Spanish descent were actually more Sephardic jew than anything else. They refer to themselves as crypto-jews because their ancestors hid the fact that they were jewish. Supposedly, there are a number of these people throughout much of the former Spanish colonies in the Americas, though I do not know if other countries are spending as much time on the issue as they are here in New Mexico.
 
 
Genetic studies done in the last 3 years have revealed a strong jewish connection in the melungeon line in the southeast US.  Our family carries the so called cohen gene and it has been traced as far back as the 11th cent.
 
 
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Posts: 296 		  Quote IamJoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 16:30
 
As I understand it most of the Jews had left Palestine before 70AD.
 
There was no 'PALESTINE' before 70 CE. There was only Judea, historically speaking.
 
 (More accurately, there were more Jews outside Palestine than in it, and the largest Jewish city was Alexandria, and many Jews no longer understood Hebrew.) That's why the Septuagint was compiled, and why it was compiled in Alexandria.
 
Obviously, there was a destruction of Judea, its peoples exiled away, and they spread to the surrounds - involuntarilly. But this is not why the Septuagint was written [translated to greek] in 300 BCE. At this time, Alexander visited Jerusalem and, having great esteem for the Jews and their History, requested this first translation of the Hebrew bible. I fail to see how this connects with the term Palestine, or the dispersal of the Jews from a war some 350 years later.
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Posts: 296 		  Quote IamJoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 17:04
Hebrew was learnt and used through out the centuries in the diaspora, and in the holy land.
 
 
Hebrew appears a mysterious language source, its origins shrouded in contradictions. It is stated in most places that Hebrew is among the first three alphabetical writings, and immediate derivites of the phoenecian and canaanite.
 
My problem here is, as Israel emerged later than those nations, and was a small, wondering peoples - how come we have the most advanced, and 'first' alphabetical 'books' in Hebrew - ahead of those advanced nations? I refer here to the absence of such alphabetical books from phonecia and Cannan - here we see only bits and pieces of alphabets touted as resembling the Hebrew - or vice verse, and the rest being burial epitaphs and commercial recipts, with any more involved writings being of a much later date. Phoenecia survived 800 years after Israel emerged.
 
There are also some anomolies when we examine the narratives of the Hebrew Bible. This states that the Israelites entered Canaan with the five alphabetical books already in hand. This is backed by powerful circumstantial evidence. For example, we find no Hebrew writings with the canaanites, and indeed the non-Israelite canaanites did not speak this language; neighter did the Egyptians, who were periodocal rulers of canaan prior to Israel's entry there.
 
That the israelites wrote the bible prior to entry in Canaan, is also backed by powerful narratives of the historically contemporanous descriptions: Egypt's rulers. diets, terrains are authentically given; there are numerous other nations encountered enroute to Canaan, as well as amazing aerial mapping topography of the desert routes and coastal highways, and the variant entry paths which had to be taken before entry into canaan. There are a host of such examples denoting the texts are scientifically authentic - mostly and best by the ancient 'names' sited - these are correct paleanthologically, which uses names for historical evidencing more than any other factor: a 4000 year old name never appears 3500 ago. The Hebrew bible contains copious lists of generations and offsprings, with dob's, dods and actual places - not recallable orally. It appears authentic of its space-time.
 
We find also that certain alphabets [V] was unique to the Hebrew, which appears also to introduce Grammar of a most advanced form to the world.
 
The descriptions in the hebrew bible has no equivalence with any other writings, before, or after for 600 years: the greeks evoled to alphabetical writings only after they translated the Septuagint in 300 BCE. The inferred conclusion can be made, that Hebrew appeared suddenly and in an already advanced form - thus an anomoly. Aside from this, it appears the Hebrew predated the Phonecian, and the similarities of some prototype alphabets does not negate this possibility - instead, the vacuum of advanced alphabetical books anywhere else in the region gives it more credence as a precedent writings. Archeologists have been numerously wrong - consider that 15 years ago, King david was widely deemed a mythical figure. Then the tel dan discovery occured, and those scholars have never recovered from their shame.
 
If Hebrew evolved from an earlier writings, and an older and mightier nations - then we should see 100s, if not 1000s, of older alphaber=tical books from that source. This is made more imperitive because those nations did not suffer the exiles and dispersals of the Israelites. Yes/No?
 
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Originally posted by IamJoseph

 
The descriptions in the hebrew bible has no equivalence with any other writings, before, or after for 600 years: the greeks evoled to alphabetical writings only after they translated the Septuagint in 300 BCE. The inferred conclusion can be made, that Hebrew appeared suddenly and in an already advanced form - thus an anomoly. Aside from this, it appears the Hebrew predated the Phonecian, and the similarities of some prototype alphabets does not negate this possibility - instead, the vacuum of advanced alphabetical books anywhere else in the region gives it more credence as a precedent writings. Archeologists have been numerously wrong - consider that 15 years ago, King david was widely deemed a mythical figure. Then the tel dan discovery occured, and those scholars have never recovered from their shame. 
 
Please stop this meaningless bragging. It appears only that you're not familiar with the basic facts.
 
The earliest Greek text found so far i.e. Derveni papirus predates any known copy of the text in Hebrew ever found. The same is true for Phoenician texts.
 
Though if one talks just about inscriptions, letter fragments etc. they predate any Hebrew written artefacts for many centuries.
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 19:13
The descriptions in the hebrew bible has no equivalence with any other writings, before, or after for 600 years: the greeks evoled to alphabetical writings only after they translated the Septuagint in 300 BCE. The inferred conclusion can be made, that Hebrew appeared suddenly and in an already advanced form - thus an anomoly. Aside from this, it appears the Hebrew predated the Phonecian, and the similarities of some prototype alphabets does not negate this possibility - instead, the vacuum of advanced alphabetical books anywhere else in the region gives it more credence as a precedent writings. Archeologists have been numerously wrong - consider that 15 years ago, King david was widely deemed a mythical figure. Then the tel dan discovery occured, and those scholars have never recovered from their shame.
 
 
 
In less polite circles this is known as pulling history out of your butt.  There are others here more versed in this than I but they will agree.  Hebrew did not just appear out of nowhere. It has earlier archaic forms that do show a steady evolution of the written language.  Hebrew and Phoenician evolved from the language known as Cannanite.   Please stop trying to make something mysterious when it is not.
 
King David is still considered by many to be fictional.  The discoveries at tel dan have been controversial at best from the very beginning.  I don't believe I have ever read where a scholar was or felt shamed by a discovery of something that can be interpreted in so many ways as the stele at tel dan.
 
It's odd how the people who see David in the script are affiliated with the Israeli government in one way or another.  It has been a prime objective for years to find proof of David's existence in order to legitimize their claims to the region.
 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 20-Sep-2008 at 19:29
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 20:05
Originally posted by IamJoseph

 
As I understand it most of the Jews had left Palestine before 70AD.
 
There was no 'PALESTINE' before 70 CE. There was only Judea, historically speaking.
And Israel and Canaan and Philistia and.... Palestina was the Roman word for the area before 70 CE, and did not and still does not mean Judaea.
It is however the familiar English-language name for the area which is why I used it.
 
 (More accurately, there were more Jews outside Palestine than in it, and the largest Jewish city was Alexandria, and many Jews no longer understood Hebrew.) That's why the Septuagint was compiled, and why it was compiled in Alexandria.
 
Obviously, there was a destruction of Judea, its peoples exiled away, and they spread to the surrounds - involuntarilly.
It wasn't just involuntary. There was a large number, quite reasonably, of economic migrants  and soldier/colonists. (A lot of Jews had already stayed behind in Babylon after they were allowed to go.) Even St Paul came from a pre-70 CE diaspora family, and nothing to do with the exiles. 
But this is not why the Septuagint was written [translated to greek] in 300 BCE. At this time, Alexander visited Jerusalem and, having great esteem for the Jews and their History, requested this first translation of the Hebrew bible.
Alexander wasn't visiting anywhere in 300 BCE.
 
The Septuagint was commissioned by Ptolemy II Philadelphus, not by Alexander. In fact it was commissioned more than 50 years after Alexander's death. Ptolemy only came to the throne in 285 BCE.
 
And if most Jews had been living in Jerusalem or Palestine, the Septuagint would probably have been translated there. It was done in Alexandria because Alexandria was then the world's largest Jewish city.
 I fail to see how this connects with the term Palestine, or the dispersal of the Jews from a war some 350 years later.
It doesn't connect with 'Palestine' which is simply the English name for the area between the Sinai and Syria, and the Mediterranean and the Jordan. This is after all an English-speaking forum.
 
It doesn't have any connection with the later Jewish-Roman wars and the migration of many Jews after them. It's just that the diaspora had started long before 70 CE: in fact the word was used by the Greeks to refer to the Jewish migrations as early as the third century BCE.
 
 
The Diaspora outnumbered the Jews in Judea very early. In 59 B.C., Cicero defended Flaccus, a former governor of the province of Asia, the western portion of Asia Minor filled with Greek cities, and he railed against the Jewish onlookers who demonstrated loudly against his client, for as governor Flaccus had interfered with the tithe that the Jews in his province sent each year to the Temple in Jerusalem. Who were these Jews and why were they in Rome? A couple years earlier, Pompey who was later to become Julius Caesar's rival, had arrived back in Rome with booty from his eastern campaigns and some of the captives who flooded the Roman slave market were Jews, for one of Pompey's conquests was Judaea. Roman slaves became freedmen, and freedmen's sons became full Roman citizens, but the process took more than two years. The Jews who heckled Cicero and provoked his bitter rejoinder which we can still read in his Pro Flacco, were probably long-time residents.

More Jews lived outside Judaea by this time than within it. They had emigrated of their own free will. Roman rule was generally benign. The Romans may have thought the religion of the Jews was odd, but they respected its oddities. Even in Alexandria, where relations between the Greeks and the local Jewish community were edgy, the authorities were fair.



Edited by gcle2003 - 20-Sep-2008 at 20:07
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