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Foreign Influences on Europe.
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Chilbudios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Foreign Influences on Europe.
    Posted: 10-May-2008 at 18:51
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I know what you meant. It is a similar technology indeed, but Europeans simply didn't applied it to printing-on-paper in Ancient times or in most of the Middle Ages!
I didn't say that, all I said was that block printing existed in Europe and Gutenberg's invention naturally followed it.
 
You are so desesperate to prove that print was invented in your mother civilization, that you don't accept that printing on paper is what matters not in textiles.
We were talking about the history and invention of printing, not of the paper. One cannot print on paper, unless he has paper, nor can one print on paper, if he doesn't know how to print, therefore your point is moot.
 
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2008 at 19:41
In case it has escaped you, every one is getting very tired of your anti European blather.
 
Printing did not originate solely in China.  Either on paper or textiles.  The Tamils are normally credited with block printing on textiles.
With some 80,000 Characters in their written language, printing did not lend itself well to the Chinese.  And movable type? Forget it.
 
Ping, You admonishing someone for speculation is funny.  If you didn't speculate or out right fabricate sources you'd still be under 2000 posts.


Edited by red clay - 10-May-2008 at 19:50
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2008 at 20:28
Originally posted by pinguin

 
A small point. Printing is possible thanks to paper.
 
You can print on T-shirts. And the Romans had T-shirts. (So did the Greeks.)
 
Your point about innovation against invention is useful, but how come you don't see the Chinese as innovators? Printing is simply stamping a pattern on something by using pressure. You can do it with your fingers.
 
Or did the Chinese invent fingerprints (assuming the Amerindians didn't).
 
If we assume fire was invented, any subsequent use of fire for anything (like making fireworks or building steam engines) is simply an innovation. Where do you draw the line?
 
(Once you've invented eating, cooking is just an innovation.)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2008 at 20:35
Originally posted by red clay

In case it has escaped you, every one is getting very tired of your anti European blather.
 
I have noticed it. Every time I point to foreign influences in Euope, there are people that feels attacked. Something like as I were a blasphemous, a heretic that goes against the well established dogma of European intellectual superiority. Somebody that just don't believe Greeks were the single smart people in the ancient world.
 
Originally posted by red clay

Printing did not originate solely in China.  Either on paper or textiles.  The Tamils are normally credited with block printing on textiles.
With some 80,000 Characters in their written language, printing did not lend itself well to the Chinese.  And movable type? Forget it.
 
Movable type also existed in East Asia before Europe. Read Needham.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2008 at 20:39
Originally posted by Chilbudios

...One cannot print on paper, unless he has paper,
... 
 
Indeed. That's why Chinese invented printing first. They had paper since Roman times, and had a lot of times to develop printing on paper, which is what matters.
 
Thanks to prove my point Cheers
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2008 at 20:44
Originally posted by gcle2003

Or did the Chinese invent fingerprints (assuming the Amerindians didn't).
 
I know well what Amerindians invented and discovered and that's not the point.
Laugh about my interest on Amerindians, and forget your own fantasious idealism on European cultural origins.
 
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

If we assume fire was invented, any subsequent use of fire for anything (like making fireworks or building steam engines) is simply an innovation. Where do you draw the line?
 
(Once you've invented eating, cooking is just an innovation.)
 
Tricky question. Ask the patent office near you.
 
But indeed, distinguishing between an invention and an innovation is arbitrary, However, doing something so trivial like putting milk on chocolate wouldn't be considered an invention for most reasonable people.
 
 
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 01:26
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Chilbudios

..The presence of magnetic compass is documented in Europe since 12th-13th centuries and there are many arguments it was an independent invention. Joseph Needham's study received its share of replies, for instance one is here:
 
There are always disident voices. However, the mainstream today agrees the magnetic compass was invented in China.

That's not challenging what I said. I said it might very well have been independently invented both in China and Europe. First in China, a few decades later in Europe. The magnetic compass popped up in China and Europe, but not anywhere in between, which suggests two independent inventions. The Arabs got it from the Europeans, which further strengthens that.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 01:38
Originally posted by pinguin

I have noticed it. Every time I point to foreign influences in Euope, there are people that feels attacked. Something like as I were a blasphemous, a heretic that goes against the well established dogma of European intellectual superiority. Somebody that just don't believe Greeks were the single smart people in the ancient world.
 
I think you are being wilfully ignorant of what you are doing, pinguin.  Your purpose is to endlessly point out, so that no one forgets, and so that minority peoples are not "forgotten" or trampled upon by supposed Euro-centrist historians.  But no one recognizes any longer this once-noble purpose of yours.  You have turned it into a laughingstock by subordinating every single contribution you have made to the forum to this crusade.  Have you not seen that everyone can predict what you will reply before you do it?
 


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 11-May-2008 at 01:40
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 02:18
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

...
 
I think you are being wilfully ignorant of what you are doing, pinguin.  Your purpose is to endlessly point out, so that no one forgets, and so that minority peoples are not "forgotten" or trampled upon by supposed Euro-centrist historians.  But no one recognizes any longer this once-noble purpose of yours.  You have turned it into a laughingstock by subordinating every single contribution you have made to the forum to this crusade.  Have you not seen that everyone can predict what you will reply before you do it?
 
 
Dear Byzantine Emperator,
It is fine that you consider me a sort of Robin Hood of minority people, but sound quite funny to me LOL. It has not been my intention, anyways. After all, what you call "minorities" are actually the "majorities" on planet earth. Just counting Chinese and Indians you have half mankind, for instance.
 
I am not a revisionist, either. I just have tried to defend the possition of several historians that see the things from an international point of view, rather that the provincial European view.
 
For instance, in this thread we have talk about Algebra, science, chocolate, magnetic compasses and printing, all of which the informed historians recognize and oriental or american invention or innovation.
 
Of course I recognize Europeans invented things, Calculus, the steam machine or Relativity, for instance. I don't see a problem to recognize the merit to whom deserves it.
 
I just was pointing to a very wrong attitude of SOME Europeans of the renascence and modern times, of copying foreing ideas and attributing them to themselves.
 
Now, that I am accussed of "amerindian centrist" or "third world centrism" sound to me really pathetic Confused
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 02:31
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

...That's not challenging what I said. I said it might very well have been independently invented both in China and Europe. First in China, a few decades later in Europe. The magnetic compass popped up in China and Europe, but not anywhere in between, which suggests two independent inventions. The Arabs got it from the Europeans, which further strengthens that.
 
Yes, I agree that it is possible they were invented independently. For instance, the magnetic needle was discovered independently by the Olmecs who applyied it to geomancy, so it is possible that really was the case.
 
For printing perhaps the case of independent invention is strong. Actually, once you have paper, the idea of printing is really something quite simple. Paper arrived to Europe around the 12 century from Spain, and I bet cutted woods printed developed sooner aftwerwards. Curiosly, in Al-Andalus printing was not invented.
 
What I am certain about independent invention was the escapement. Chinese invented that device in theirs hydromechanical clocks of the Tang and Sung dynasties. Europeans invented the same device for theirs "solid-state" mechanical clocks of the late Middle Ages.
There is not evidence of any transmition of clockmaking knowledge from China to Europe.
 
 
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 02:46
Originally posted by pinguin

It is fine that you consider me a sort of Robin Hood of minority people, but sound quite funny to me. It has not been my intention, anyways. After all, what you call "minorities" are actually the "majorities" on planet earth. Just counting Chinese and Indians you have half mankind, for instance.
 
I mean "minority" to the extent that they are perceived to have been covered in historical evaluations and from what standpoint.
 
As for me, I am not calling you -centrist anything.  However, don't you think that you might be looked upon as one of these centrist types based on the content and frequency of your posts at All Empires?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 04:02

Centrist? Left winger? I don't think so.

Actually, if anything, I am only showing the local cultural influences that come form the fact I was born in a "provincial" area of the western world like Latin America is. In fact, and curiously enough, there are many right-wingers that are indigenists in this part of the world, besides left wingers.
 
A fact you should not forget about Latin Americans living in Latin America, is the following: we live with one foot in the western world because our language, education, science and arts are directly connected with Europe, of the U.S.. But at the same time we are in contact daily with other cultures. First, Iberian mentality is different from the rest of Europe, because its multicultural influences from mediterranean peoples, like arabs and jews. Second, the indigenous world is a source of pride from us, and we are still impressed with the ancient works of people like the Incas. Third, we have our own, multiracial and multiethnic identity, and strong nationalistic feelings.
 
And yes, I am in a minority in here. Although the use of Internet is widespread in the most advanced countries of Latin America, very few of us speak english. Perhaps in the future you'll meet less excentric South Americans living in South America in the forum, but today -perhaps- you just have me.


Edited by pinguin - 11-May-2008 at 04:03
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 05:47
Originally posted by pinguin

 
We agree chocolated was a product created by Amerindians (Chocolated is not cacao beans, but a processed product).
 
 The same happened with Chocolate. The European version is an innovation (smart indeed) in a processed food that was discover and invented in the Americas.
the solid chocolate bar is an invention in its own right and not a linear or natural improvement of the drink. You can argue for the chocolate drinks drunk in Europe (the removing of the cocoa butter and adding sugar/milk)are improvements-  but not solid chocolate. The only thing in common is the cocoa, not how its is processed or made. While the end product is unique enough and the way it is consumed different. Considering there is no direct past equivalent that solid chocolate is improving from, your simply playing semantics (innovation vs invention) around a lost case. Dont belive me? then define the two words (in English)Wink

Whoever domesticated wheat, can now claim all wheat based products? Wheat Pasta is not just an improvement from domesticating wheat or making bread. That is the flawed logic your using
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 06:10

Leonidas,

You insist that the key invention is the European chocolate bar, because you are an european. Perhaps there, the only chocolate you know comes in bars. As a Latin American, on the other hand, I am acustommed the see products and foods that Europeans don't have idea they exists: Andes tamales, for instance, or that rice-like product called quinoa. And in here we call chocolate to the family of products of processed cacao beans.

Yes, that invention of the chocolate bars is interesting. However, chocolate is the name of the substance, not of the late improvements. Just say that chocolate bars were invented by Europeans and nobody will argue. But chocolate is part of the heritage of the Americas.

For instance, Europeans developed the modern liquid and solid fuel rockets. They have motors and feedback systems to control trajectory, fuel injection, etc, and are a lot more advanced that the original gunpowder rocket. However, I don't believe anyone would claim Europeans invented rockets! Rockets were invented in China.

 



Edited by pinguin - 11-May-2008 at 06:14
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 10:47
Originally posted by pinguin

However, chocolate is the name of the substance.

Actually, no it isn't. If you sell cocoa (powdered or as beans) as chocolate in the EU you can be fined, and, I guess, if you persist, sent to jail.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 13:51
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by pinguin

However, chocolate is the name of the substance.

Actually, no it isn't. If you sell cocoa (powdered or as beans) as chocolate in the EU you can be fined, and, I guess, if you persist, sent to jail.
 
 
Ridiculous. What the Americans define is irrelevant. In fact, they are some of the people that know the world the less.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 14:41
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by pinguin

However, chocolate is the name of the substance.

Actually, no it isn't. If you sell cocoa (powdered or as beans) as chocolate in the EU you can be fined, and, I guess, if you persist, sent to jail.
 
 
Ridiculous. What the Americans define is irrelevant. In fact, they are some of the people that know the world the less.
 
 
I don't understand your comment: America's not in the US yet. 'Chocolate' is an English word. It and the French, Spanish, Portuguese, German..... equivalent words are officially defined by the EU Commission, at least within EU territory.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 15:13
Chocolate an english word?
Oh Lord! Colonialism has gone too far...Cool
 
Anyways, it is unbelievable how tough has been to defend something obvious: that chocolate is the heritage of Mesoamerica.
I just imagine if I tried to defend other American products like rubber or maize. Or some discoveries like platinum. Or some inventions like the hammock or mocasines.
I bet the world is not ready as yet to hear the truth.
 


Edited by pinguin - 11-May-2008 at 15:20
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 15:35
Originally posted by pinguin

Chocolate an english word?
Oh Lord! Colonialism has gone too far...Cool
Well, it's not a French word and it's not a German word and it's not an Italian word and it's not an Aztec or Nahuatl word. It is a Spanish word as well as English but my dictionary gives
chocolate m
1   chocolate
     chocolate amargo, dark o plain chocolate
     chocolate con leche, milk chocolate
2   argot (hachís) dope
none of which is the meaning you're trying to use.
 
Anyways, it is unbelievable how tough has been to defend something obvious: that chocolate is the heritage of Mesoamerica.
I just imagine if I tried to defend other American products like rubber or maize. Or some discoveries like platinum. Or some inventions like the hammock or mocasines.
I bet the world is not ready as yet to hear the truth.
 
 
Rubber and maize first grew in the Americas. No-one denied that: it's just that, since that's where they grew, it was no big deal that they were first discovered there. Where else would they be?
 
Platinum, hammocks and moccasins I have no trouble accepting as first discovered/invented in the Americas. Though the hammock and the moccasin are pretty minor inventions in the cosmic scheme of things.
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This all reminds me of some "discussions" my 5 year old daughter has with her friends sometimes at the playground.
i saw the shovel first - no, i did. Baah, daddy, i want to have this shovel.....
 
Please help me, but why it's so important who invited the surgery first or who used the word cacao first?
 
Might be i'm too ignorant, but was is the  essence of 8 pages of expostulations to each other?
 
My thank goes to Chinese, Mayan, Korean or whoever, who invited some things that helped the humanity to develop.


Edited by ulrich von hutten - 11-May-2008 at 15:56

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