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Foreign Influences on Europe.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Foreign Influences on Europe.
    Posted: 04-May-2008 at 17:22
Not long ago historians believed Francis Bacon had invented gunpowder LOL..
 
Today is clear that several European inventions and discoveries came from abroad, from places as diverse as India, China, South East Asia and the Muslim World, and they entered Europe at the end of the Middle Ages, changing that continent forever.
 
The standard historical analysis teach us that Greece was the source of all culture, science and technology, but forgets to tell us that the difference between Classical Greece and the Modern World was filled with knowledge imported from abroad.
 
These are some of the inventions and contribution imported from the East:
 
(1) Gunpowder, from China.
(2) Printing, from Korea
(3) Rudder, from China
(4) Magnetic compass. from China
(5) Projection of images, from China
(6) escapement in clocks, from China
(7) Paper, from China
(8) The Pascal triangle, from China
(9) Chess, from India
(10) Zero, from India
(11) Numerals, from India
(12) Algebra, from the Islamic world.
(13) Trigonometry, from the Islamic world.
(14) Vaccination, from Persia.
(15) Optics and perspective, from the Islamic world (Al-hazen)
(16) Wind mild, from Persia
(17) Modern hospitals and medicine schools, from the Islamic world
 
It would like we could contribute to expand this list. That way we will see how much Europe owes its development to other civilizations.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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The practice of vaccination and innoculation was bought over to Europe by Lady Montegue after her observations in the Ottoman lands.
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And some basic things from Asia like bottoms and trousers. Possibly underwears too:-))

hmmm...and f.e.  different kinds of heavy and light cavalry etc.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2008 at 18:28
Originally posted by pinguin

Not long ago historians believed Francis Bacon had invented gunpowder LOL..
No they didn't. You obviously can't distinguish between Bacons any more than Cyrus can distinguish between Saxons and Picts.
 
Today is clear that several European inventions and discoveries came from abroad, from places as diverse as India, China, South East Asia and the Muslim World, and they entered Europe at the end of the Middle Ages, changing that continent forever.
 
The standard historical analysis teach us that Greece was the source of all culture, science and technology, but forgets to tell us that the difference between Classical Greece and the Modern World was filled with knowledge imported from abroad.
 
These are some of the inventions and contribution imported from the East:
 
(1) Gunpowder, from China.
(2) Printing, from Korea
(3) Rudder, from China
(4) Magnetic compass. from China
(5) Projection of images, from China
(6) escapement in clocks, from China
(7) Paper, from China
(8) The Pascal triangle, from China
(9) Chess, from India
(10) Zero, from India
(11) Numerals, from India
(12) Algebra, from the Islamic world.
(13) Trigonometry, from the Islamic world.
(14) Vaccination, from Persia.
(15) Optics and perspective, from the Islamic world (Al-hazen)
(16) Wind mild, from Persia
(17) Modern hospitals and medicine schools, from the Islamic world
 
It would like we could contribute to expand this list. That way we will see how much Europe owes its development to other civilizations.
Most of these things I learned at school which is over 60 years ago now. But you're wrong on a couple. Vaccination comes from China/India (though the word was invented by an Englishman). European windmills are totally different from Persian ones.
 
It's little short of nutty to say modern hospitals and medical schools come from the Islamic world. The essential factor making a hospital modern is that it is sterile. That didn't come about till the 19th century in Europe.
 
As for the rest, OK, who's arguing? Not for the first time you show yourself totally ignorant of what Europeans are taught.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2008 at 22:45
Do you have an agenta against Europe or something??

And some basic things from Asia like bottoms and trousers. Possibly underwears too:-))



By the way, Celts and Germanics wore trousers a long way back.


Edited by Vorian - 04-May-2008 at 22:45
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2008 at 22:53
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by pinguin

Not long ago historians believed Francis Bacon had invented gunpowder LOL..
No they didn't. You obviously can't distinguish between Bacons any more than Cyrus can distinguish between Saxons and Picts.
 
 
Yes. I knew I made a mistake with the Bacons, putting Francis instead of Roger. I just leave it there for fun because I KNEW YOU WOULD come here to correct that. LOL
 
Well, I don't confusse Saxons with Picts but I don't confusse Latinos with Africans, either Wink


Edited by pinguin - 04-May-2008 at 22:54
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By the way, Celts and Germanics wore trousers a long way back.
Really? Weren't all the ancient Europeans naked? Cool
 
Trigonometry = trigonon + metron. While obviously relied also on Middle East mathematics (from where we have the sexadecimal base), our first important source on trigonometry (Thales or Menelaus theorem should be learnt in highschool) are the Greeks.
Similarly the algebra precedes the Islamic world, the probable source being a synthesis between Ancient Middle East and Greece, however a large part of the ancient Greek algebra was unknown to Europeans until after Renaissance (e.g. Diophantus' Arithmetica). However the Islamic scholars made their progressed in algebra which were also passed to Europeans.
Numerals were known to Europeans since ancient times (both ancient Greeks and Romans had their own numeral system, and the Roman one was still in use in Middle Ages and even now, albeit in restricted areas). Numerals, in a way, are known to almost any culture who knows how to count (tally marks). The Islamic world only brought to Europeans a new numeral system (from India), not the numerals.
Optics and perspective were also known to ancient Greeks. Euclid or Aristotle should be quite famous for anyone who finished a high-school. The European medieval "physicists" like Roger Bacon had as source both Islamic and Ancient Greek theorists.
And also, contrary to the common opinion, the ancient works survived in Europe in several ways: few were still preserved in scriptoria, a part were translated from Arabic, but a part were translated from Greek. Many important works, including some of Euclid and Aristotle were translated in Latin from Greek.
 
Many things were discovered in the East but their discovery in Europe (even when later) sometimes it was independent. For instance, it is quite possible that European printing to be an independent invention.
 
I'm joining the others and say in Europe we learn in school about the influence of Islamic world or India or China and I don't think your opening post suggests accurately what Europeans are really taught. However, what you don't seem to notice is that modern algebra or modern medicine are much different from the ones existent centuries ago, and much of their substance was added by the Western Civilization of which Europe is part of.
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Exams to become civil servant from China
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 01:13
Cotton is Indian but also American. Amerindians had cotton cloths since several thousand years ago (Chichorro culture). The variety used worldwide today is American.
 
Porcelain (chinaware)
Ecuatorial mounting of telescopes (China)
Alcohol (Muslim)
Siringe (Muslim/Amerindian)
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 01:18
Originally posted by Chilbudios

By the way, Celts and Germanics wore trousers a long way back.
Really? Weren't all the ancient Europeans naked? Cool
 
Cheers
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

[
Trigonometry = trigonon + metron. While obviously relied also on Middle East mathematics (from where we have the sexadecimal base), our first important source on trigonometry (Thales or Menelaus theorem should be learnt in highschool) are the Greeks.
Similarly the algebra precedes the Islamic world, the probable source being a synthesis between Ancient Middle East and Greece, however a large part of the ancient Greek algebra was unknown to Europeans until after Renaissance (e.g. Diophantus' Arithmetica). However the Islamic scholars made their progressed in algebra which were also passed to Europeans.
 
Yes. Without doubt Indian and Arab mathematics had an heritage of Greek math as well.
 
However, it is curious that the late capital of Greek learning was not located in Greece but in EGYPT. Technically in the Middle East, rather than in Europe LOLLOL
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Optics and perspective were also known to ancient Greeks. Euclid or Aristotle should be quite famous for anyone who finished a high-school. The European medieval "physicists" like Roger Bacon had as source both Islamic and Ancient Greek theorists.
 
Sort of. But the genious of Al-Hazen changed optics in the Middle Ages. And Roger Bacon read Al-Hazen.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

... However, what you don't seem to notice is that modern algebra or modern medicine are much different from the ones existent centuries ago, and much of their substance was added by the Western Civilization of which Europe is part of.
 
Yes. Europeans have contributed a little. No doubt about it Wink
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Originally posted by Pinguin

Yes. Without doubt Indian and Arab mathematics had an heritage of Greek math as well.
 
However, it is curious that the late capital of Greek learning was not located in Greece but in EGYPT. Technically in the Middle East, rather than in Europe
Technically Egypt was part of Graeco-Roman world in the Classical times.
 
Sort of. But the genious of Al-Hazen changed optics in the Middle Ages. And Roger Bacon read Al-Hazen.
He also read Aristotle, he was even teaching on him (the curriculum in his times was profoundly aristotelic). But the most important influence on Bacon was that of Grosseteste, who was also dedicated to Aristotle's work. Arguably the Greek foundation was more influential on these scholars than the Islamic works which nevertheless contributed too to their understanding.
 
Yes. Europeans have contributed a little. No doubt about it
Actually it is most of it. Let's take one of your examples - feel free to document yourself about modern algebra:
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:09
Originally posted by Chilbudios

...Technically Egypt was part of Graeco-Roman world in the Classical times.
 
 
Of course, but the Muslim world was build on top of the ancient Greek-Roman world as well.
That's something Europeans forget, because they think Greek-Roman civilization is at the root of Europe and only of Europe, and they don't see the fact that the Muslim world is a cousin civilization of the West, that share the same ancestors.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

...
 He also read Aristotle, he was even teaching on him (the curriculum in his times was profoundly aristotelic). But the most important influence on Bacon was that of Grosseteste, who was also dedicated to Aristotle's work. Arguably the Greek foundation was more influential on these scholars than the Islamic works which nevertheless contributed too to their understanding.
 
 
Of course, but Al-Hazen was more advanced in the field that all those venerable Greeks together. And Bacon read him.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

...
Yes. Europeans have contributed a little. No doubt about it
Actually it is most of it. Let's take one of your examples - feel free to document yourself about modern algebra:
 
No doubt about it. Europe is the most wonderful civilization the world has seen since Atlantis. Yes sir, no doubt about it. Wink
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 05-May-2008 at 02:11
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:09
Originally posted by pinguin

Alcohol (Muslim)
can you expand on this? I dont think that is correct
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:15
I meant the isolation of Alcohol. That's something pretty well known. I just quote "wiki" this time.
 
 
Islamic world

The isolation of ethanol (alcohol) as a pure compound was first achieved by Muslim chemists who developed the art of distillation during the Abbasid caliphate, the most notable of whom were Persian Jabir ibn Hayyan (Geber), Al-Kindi (Alkindus) and Persian al-Razi (Rhazes). The writings attributed to Jabir ibn Hayyan (721-815) mention the flammable vapors of boiled wine. Al-Kindi (801-873) unambiguously described the distillation of wine
Pure distilled alcohol was first produced by Muslim chemists in the Islamic world during the 8th and 9th centuries. The development of the still with cooled collector—necessary for the efficient distillation of spirits without freezing—was an invention of Muslim alchemists during this time. In particular, Geber (Jabir Ibn Hayyan, 721–815) invented the alembic still; he observed that heated wine from this still released a flammable vapor, which he described as "of little use, but of great importance to science". Not much later, al-Razi (864–930) described the distillation of alcohol and its use in medicine.
 
The Persian physician and scientist Rhazes discovered techniques of distillation, but because he wanted his book to be published in most of the then-known world, he issued it in Arabic instead of Persian (although he made copies in Persian). The word was introduced into Europe, together with the art of distillation and the resulting substance itself, around the 12th century by various European authors who translated and popularized the discoveries of Islamic and Persian alchemists.
 
The word "alcohol" almost certainly comes from the Arabic language, however, the precise etymology is unclear. "Al-" is the Arabic definite article, but the second part may be derived from the al-kuḥl, the name of an early distilled substance, or perhaps from al-ġawl, meaning "spirit" or "demon" and akin to liquors being called "spirits" in English.
Names like "life water" have continued to be the inspiration for the names of several types of beverages, like Gaelic whisky, French eaux-de-vie and possibly vodka. Also, the Scandinavian akvavit spirit gets its name from the Latin phrase aqua vitae.
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Originally posted by Pinguin

Of course, but the Muslim world was build on top of the ancient Greek-Roman world as well.
That's something Europeans forget, because they think Greek-Roman civilization is at the root of Europe and only of Europe, and they don't see the fact that the Muslim world is a cousin civilization of the West, that share the same ancestors.
You speak too much about what Europeans think and believe but most of the times you're wrong.
Also please note that such stereotypes are usually close to insults. You practice them too often on your threads.
 
No doubt about it. Europe is the most wonderful civilization the world has seen since Atlantis. Yes sir, no doubt about it.
In 7 minutes I doubt you actually read much from that link. Let's do this: first you understand everything what is written there and then we can compare Islamic algebra with what we, "the Europeans" understand and know today as algebra, OK?
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Posts: 274 		  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:28
I think the term Islamic might fit it better, its hard to state the difference between  persian to arabic during those days.

though I believe, the Arabs did get influence in regards to hospitals by the sassanids.

Originally posted by Maharbbal

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:30
To Chilbudios:
 
Fellow, I got an MSc in computer science studying robot vision in Canada.
You are not going to shock me with "European Math". I know European achievements, like Godel, Turing, Galois, Newton, Pascal, Descartes, Cantor, Lobachevtsky, Gauss, Fourier, etc. etc.
 
Pretty impressive, indeed.
 
But remember that Isaac Newton was modest enough to recognize he was standing on the shoulders of giants. And one of those giants were the Muslim scientists and mathematicians of the Middle Ages!


Edited by pinguin - 05-May-2008 at 02:33
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:55
On that Alcohol thing, I'd be careful with those origins.  I've seen old manuscripts that refer to "harsh spirits" [and they don't mean nasty ghosts] also  strong spirits.  Some of these were dated 7th - 8th cent.  but in the scripts it stated they had been copied from much older texts there were notes detailing when and who etc.   
 
Considering fermentation and distillation in some form or another, were almost universally known you'll get a lot of arguments about that one.
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 03:05
Originally posted by Pinguin

Fellow, I got an MSc in computer science studying robot vision in Canada.
You are not going to shock me with "European Math". I know European achievements, like Godel, Turing, Galois, Newton, Pascal, Descartes, Cantor, Lobachevtsky, Gauss, Fourier, etc. etc.
 This is a big salad of mathematics, physics and philosophy and only partially related to algebra. But whatever you say.
 
But remember that Isaac Newton was modest enough to recognize he was standing on the shoulders of giants. And one of those giants were the Muslim scientists and mathematicians of the Middle Ages!
Originally the giants were actually the Ancient Greeks. This saying was actually of Bernard of Chartres, a 12th century theologician who said that they are dwarves on shoulders of giants. This saying was paraphrased several times, and also by Newton in a letter to Hooke, without mentioning the dwarves. But the giants Newton is standing on are Descartes and Hooke. If you'd actually read that letter you'd see for yourself.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 03:56

It may be, but Newton without the branch of trigonometry developed by the Arabs, hardly would have invented Calculus. That is such simple like that.

It is amazing how nervous Europeans get in the denial of ancient Muslim influences. I wonder if that will be the same 100 years from now when Europe become finally a Muslim continent LOL
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