Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

This is the BBC today....apologized....
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: This is the BBC today....apologized....
    Posted: 05-May-2008 at 22:29
Originally posted by Mixcoatl


Why is it racist to be called Slavic? Is there something wrong with Slavs?
 
They are barbars , didn't you know? Especially comparing to proud Macedonians, Philip's Pals Wink
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 22:32
Originally posted by akritas

Attempts   to force the Greek nation into either a "black" or a "white" or a “Slavic” category have no biological justification. Greeks are Greeks and not part Greeks.

 
Ugly logic. Greeks were heavily intermixed with slavs since 6th Justinian times. To deny this is nationalistic as you love to offend others in.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 22:38
Originally posted by akritas

do you need more ?
 
"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)
"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)
 
Do you want more?
.
Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 23:05
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

do you need more ?
 
"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)
"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)
 
Do you want more?

1st) the exact expression is 'εσλαβώθη' which can be translated as both 'slavicized' and 'enlsaved'....
And it reffers only to Peloponnesos, where a massacre of slavs followed, and a replacement by anatolian greeks.
2)Salonika was never taken by slavs, as also most walled cities. the area around Salonika had indeed many slavs (until the 20th century), as also turcs and persians (the name 'Vardar' is persian Wink )

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 23:06
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas


<FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>do you need more ?


 

"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)

"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)

 

Do you want more?


Treadgold mentions a high degree of Slavic being used as the lingua franca. Slavic migrations occured in gradual spurts over centuries. The Byzantine government was neither Greek nor Greek oriented at the time. Heraclius' sucessors moved loyalist populations into what is now Greece to bolster up their hold unto what became essentially newly conquered territory. That nor what I said before is in any way racist. All populations share a great deal of mixture. It is not a bad thing actually unless you adopt some ultra nationalist grand pure theory then it upsets the credibility of that, hence for the great aryian uproar in Nazi Germany and similar actions have occured in many other regions and among many other nationalist movements. A Greek is a Greek according to the Cultural reality exposed to. Not through some magical lineage back to achilles.
Back to Top
Vorian View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 23:51
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas


<FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>do you need more ?


 

"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)

"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)

 

Do you want more?


Treadgold mentions a high degree of Slavic being used as the lingua franca. Slavic migrations occured in gradual spurts over centuries. The Byzantine government was neither Greek nor Greek oriented at the time. Heraclius' sucessors moved loyalist populations into what is now Greece to bolster up their hold unto what became essentially newly conquered territory. That nor what I said before is in any way racist. All populations share a great deal of mixture. It is not a bad thing actually unless you adopt some ultra nationalist grand pure theory then it upsets the credibility of that, hence for the great aryian uproar in Nazi Germany and similar actions have occured in many other regions and among many other nationalist movements. A Greek is a Greek according to the Cultural reality exposed to. Not through some magical lineage back to achilles.


Most Greeks are offended cause many people when speaking of Slavs they  imply that the ancient Greeks were actually extinct and that we are descendants of Albanians and Slavs, like Falmereyer's theory. At least you can understand this sentimentality
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 05:05
No one here mentioned that, but to say that you are pure deascendants of Classic pre Phillip Greeks is a bit laughable. There has been a ton of mixture thorughout the entire Balkans. In fact that is one of the attributes of the Balkans. The Greek mainland is not an exception in this. This is a history-based site, we are not here to bolster crap like that (that Greeks have died out, etc) But culture is a major determinant of ethnicity not genetics in the first place. So even if that were true, Greeks would be no less Greeks, because an ethnicity is what it feels and identifies with. Culturaly there is a Greek population in the present. It is not exactly the same as classical, but are Germanic and modern Germans of the same region eventhe same? There are things that change, there is continuity. Ethnicity and culture are not monoliths, they expand, adapt, add, cease certain actions or ideas, etc...


Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 07:00
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

Attempts   to force the Greek nation into either a "black" or a "white" or a “Slavic” category have no biological justification. Greeks are Greeks and not part Greeks.

 
Ugly logic. Greeks were heavily intermixed with slavs since 6th Justinian times. To deny this is nationalistic as you love to offend others in.
are you Slav or  Tatar if you want to play your nationalist game ?
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

do you need more ?
 
"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)
"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)
 
Do you want more?
So what ?
 
the game of the cutting quotes is a popular game of those that have empties argumenrts or avoid the reality.
 
Originally posted by xristar

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

do you need more ?
 
"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)
"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)
 
Do you want more?

1st) the exact expression is 'εσλαβώθη' which can be translated as both 'slavicized' and 'enlsaved'....
And it reffers only to Peloponnesos, where a massacre of slavs followed, and a replacement by anatolian greeks.
2)Salonika was never taken by slavs, as also most walled cities. the area around Salonika had indeed many slavs (until the 20th century), as also turcs and persians (the name 'Vardar' is persian Wink )
This is to hard for Anton.Smile


Edited by akritas - 06-May-2008 at 07:08
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 10:54
Originally posted by xristar

1st) the exact expression is 'εσλαβώθη' which can be translated as both 'slavicized' and 'enlsaved'....
 
You forget the continuation of the sotry -- "that is why a guy who was proud of his Greek not to say barbarian origins was called by [do not remember who it was]-- slav mug". So it is clear what was the meaning of 'εσλαβώθη'
 

And it reffers only to Peloponnesos, where a massacre of slavs followed, and a replacement by anatolian greeks.
They were returned under agreement with Omurtag.
 

2)Salonika was never taken by slavs, as also most walled cities. the area around Salonika had indeed many slavs (until the 20th century), as also turcs and persians (the name 'Vardar' is persian Wink )
It wasn't. However slavs settlet there peacefully.  Slavs in Thessaloniki is also supported by biography of St.Cyril and some other texts.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 11:03
Originally posted by akritas

are you Slav or  Tatar if you want to play your nationalist game ?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that nationalists are those people who write and promote in nationalistis sites like you do. That nationalists are those who like you deny any
strong admixtures in their own nations (this is particularly stupid to deny in Balkans where everything was boiled together for millenias).
 
the game of the cutting quotes is a popular game of those that have empties argumenrts or avoid the reality.
Your game is even more ugly -- to discredit the person not his arguments.
 
This is to hard for Anton.Smile
It is indeed hard to believe in Greek megalomania and weak arguments to supoport it.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 11:07
Originally posted by Vorian

Most Greeks are offended cause many people when speaking of Slavs they  imply that the ancient Greeks were actually extinct and that we are descendants of Albanians and Slavs, like Falmereyer's theory. At least you can understand this sentimentality
 
Most Greeks also offend others (including Maks) in ridiculous claims that ancient population in their lands was actually extinct prior to arrival of Slavs. Don't you find it is not less offensive?
.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 11:18
Gentlemen. A bit less nationalistic rhetoric. Akritas has already been requested, but Anton, I know you disagree, but be against the arguement not the arguer.
 
 
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 11:56
I think i won't participate again in the minefield. Not sure yet. I see a lot of negativity, less history, ignorance, trolling, selectiveness, bias and people who won't miss a chance bashing on various fields.

If I wanted I could open up Pandoras box but this place is not supposed to be about that.


Edited by Flipper - 06-May-2008 at 11:58


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 12:15
Originally posted by Anton

Why is it so hard for you to understand that nationalists are those people who write and promote in nationalistis sites like you do.


He mainly promotes material he self writes based on sources, with book scans or links. Furthermore, some of the sites have many participants that are countrymen of yours and provide documents in Bulgarian.

You, Akritas and anyone else has the right to defend his positions without being called a nationalist, as long as proper method are used. That would be the use of neutral/verifyed sources and correct quoting.

To use altered material, trolling, baseless arguments in order to hurt or humiliate a group can be considered nationalism.

I thought it would be healthy to clear this out. It was not an attack to you Anton, but i found that quote of yours usefull for making a point.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 12:51
Originally posted by Flipper

You, Akritas and anyone else has the right to defend his positions without being called a nationalist, as long as proper method are used. That would be the use of neutral/verifyed sources and correct quoting.
 
Proper methods should exclude strategy of cherry picking of data that fits your ideas.
 
 

To use altered material, trolling, baseless arguments in order to hurt or humiliate a group can be considered nationalism.
 
For some reason it doesn't work with some fellas. Any mention of slavs in Greece is considered as nationalism. Deffending of rights of Macedonians for their name is nationalism. Even the idea of local origin of the culture of Balkan nations is considered as "nationalistic amalgamation theory".  Is this what you consider proper methods, mate? Not at all, it is an attempt to descredit  your opponent in the eyes of those who are not willing to take a closer look on the question. Very convinient way of doing things. And when it does not work those people are offended as you can see looking at the initial post in the thread.
It was not an attack to you Anton, but i found that quote of yours usefull for making a point.
You wrote right things, why should it be considered as an attack? Smile
.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 13:18
Originally posted by Anton

 
Proper methods should exclude strategy of cherry picking of data that fits your ideas.


You mean selective quoting. If so, you must specify such. Besides, Akritas deals often with data that can be considered unfitting.
 
 
 

 Deffending of rights of Macedonians for their name is nationalism.



And defending the rights of the Macedonians to dissagree with another countrys name is stupid, silly and other epithets as you have seen. The Macedonians or Makedones if you prefer have to take daily bullsh*t (sorry) without doing anything.



Even the idea of local origin of the culture of Balkan nations is considered as "nationalistic amalgamation theory".  Is this what you consider proper methods, mate? Not at all, it is an attempt to descredit  your opponent in the eyes of those who are not willing to take a closer look on the question. Very convinient way of doing things. And when it does not work those people are offended as you can see looking at the initial post in the thread.


Unfortunately Anton "those who are not willing to take a closer look on the question" sometimes are more interrested in bashing and discrediting. If you detect such methods and baseless ones, then I believe you could make a whole thread yourself conserning Bulgaria - FYROM issues without even touching Greece. And I mean this, in favour of Bulgarian views. Statistically, based on a google search you know where from the hits matching your criterias would come from...

Anyway, the point is that the minefield sucks. As I said i could open Pandoras box, but how healthy would that be? I don't like poisoning peoples relations in here but believe me many would love to see such a moment. Like in real life...


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 13:39
Originally posted by Flipper



You mean selective quoting. If so, you must specify such.
 
 
I mean selective quoting of sources and scholars.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 13:43
Originally posted by Flipper


Anyway, the point is that the minefield sucks. As I said i could open Pandoras box, but how healthy would that be? I don't like poisoning peoples relations in here but believe me many would love to see such a moment. Like in real life...
 
I do not agree with you. I would say so far nobody is offended. If he is than I would advise him not to use terms like "nationalist" that frequently, this stick can hit your bottom by its other side Wink
.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 14:00
You should! Approve
Nah I'm kidding. However, i don't see any possitiveness in it. I have to say i've been offended before but didn't give more value to it. I will experiment with indentifying myself only as Macedonian in the future without including "greek" anywhere, just like Cypriots do and other Greeks internally. I believe the propability of hearing funny comments is high.

On the use of the word "nationalist" you could make other remarks conserning generalization of several things as well.

As for selective quoting, you've probably not been reading much of what Akritas has written in the past. Be sure that in certain things he has not excluded anyone.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 14:07
Originally posted by Flipper



Anyway, the point is that the minefield sucks. As I said i could open Pandoras box, but how healthy would that be? I don't like poisoning peoples relations in here but believe me many would love to see such a moment. Like in real life...
 
After careful deliberation the Minefield was opened in order to discuss all previously blacklisted topics. I know this opens an avenue that enables our baser instincts but we are more focused on allowing critical evaluation of our most difficult topics. I certainly understand your hesitation and respect your decision to skillfully abstain. I don't see why members can't discuss the issues without too much sentimentality, however. Not only do we face our critics but we also face our own set boundaries.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.