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Sun Tzu
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Topic: Who was the 1st to discover America? Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 18:18 |
Today my class was in the Library doing job research and while waiting for the bell to ring I was looking at a book about the question stated and it included Columbus, Leif, and some Chinese guy. I'll have to check this book out but can anyone shed light on this subject? plus I've always wondered if the Phonecians couldn't have stumbled on American soil ages ago.
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Sun Tzu
All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 20:14 |
We already have a recent topic on this: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24136
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 20:30 |
...American Indians?
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 21:05 |
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
Today my class was in the Library doing job research and while waiting for the bell to ring I was looking at a book about the question stated and it included Columbus, Leif, and some Chinese guy. I'll have to check this book out but can anyone shed light on this subject? plus I've always wondered if the Phonecians couldn't have stumbled on American soil ages ago. |
The Americans hasn't been discovered as yet. Ask anyone about the 15.000 of cultures and civilizations that existed in here before Columbus, and people won't know!
Columbus didn't discovered the Americas, he though he was in Asia. Leif Ericson didn't discovered the Americas, he though he was somewhere in Greenland!
With respect to Zeng He, the chinese guy, he didn't even reach the Americas
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 21:31 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Leif Ericson didn't discovered the Americas, he though he was somewhere in Greenland! |
No, he didn't think he was in Greenland. Where are you getting all strange ideas from?
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:10 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
..No, he didn't think he was in Greenland. Where are you getting all strange ideas from?
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Are you sure? prove it he realize where he was
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:34 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Are you sure? prove it he realize where he was |
Is it so strange not to realize you're in Newfoundland when nobody you could possibily know Newfoundaland exists, and when Newfoundland isn't even called Newfoundland yet?
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:41 |
Not strange. Leif believed was just in another place more. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense Norse abandoned an hemisphere just because a little trouble. They have no idea what they have found, and period.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 07:46 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Not strange. Leif believed was just in another place more. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense Norse abandoned an hemisphere just because a little trouble. They have no idea what they have found, and period. |
They had no need for it. What triggered the explorations and colonization was overpopulation in the 9th century, but in the 11th century there was no need for that anymore. Again you make conclusions based on your own imagination.
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 16:39 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
... They had no need for it. What triggered the explorations and colonization was overpopulation in the 9th century, but in the 11th century there was no need for that anymore. Again you make conclusions based on your own imagination.
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I am really amazed at how I have been misquoted recently. Yes, I know, my mother language is Spanish and I lack a good english. Even so, it seems I made my point clear.
How someone can "discover" a place if they have no idea that place was unknown for the rest of the world, or that it was extraordinary?
It is modern people that attributes Leif Ericsson with the "discovery" or the Americas. For him, Vinland was nothing more than a new post in an island that followed the logical chain of artic islands called Iceland, Greenland and "Vinland". Just the last "Thule".
The same with Columbus that believed he discovered "a route to India", and never imagined he was in a new hemisphere.
Americo Vespucci was the man that discovered the Americas, I am afraid, because he realized those recent geographical discoveries belonged all to a new hemisphere, that was literally, the New World of the profecy of Seneca.
Edited by pinguin - 24-Apr-2008 at 16:43
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Sun Tzu
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 16:47 |
Well they named Newfoundland because it was NEW FOUND LAND! so yea he was in America and they have found Viking style building in the area.
Amerigo is why America is named America but he never set foot in the Americas.
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Sun Tzu
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 17:14 |
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
Well they named Newfoundland because it was NEW FOUND LAND! so yea he was in America and they have found Viking style building in the area.
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Yes. However, that's nothing extraordinary. After all, during 15.000 years man lived in the Americas, before the "barbarian" arrived . For recent contacts, Inuits did it 1.500 years before Leif Ericsson. With respect to the name "Newfoundland", I bet it was a strategy of "tourism Canada"
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
Amerigo is why America is named America but he never set foot in the Americas. |
He set foot in South America, if I am not wrong. By the way, America is the name of South America, and not North America. Weird, isn't?
Edited by pinguin - 24-Apr-2008 at 17:15
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 17:25 |
Originally posted by Pinguin
It is modern people that attributes Leif Ericsson with the "discovery" or the Americas. For him, Vinland was nothing more than a new post in an island that followed the logical chain of artic islands called Iceland, Greenland and "Vinland". Just the last "Thule".
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You're wrong. It was nothing "logical" or "arctic" in Vinland/Newfoundland (would you call the latitude of northern US or northern France arctic????). True, they didn't call it America but it was acknowledged to be a different land from Greenland, so it invalidates your earlier point that Leif thought to be "somewhere in Greenland".
Also the Norse didn't own a hemisphere nor anyone discovered a new hemisphere (hemisphere means half of globe, in case you are not familiar with the term - as long as the Earth was known to be round it always had two hemispheres based on any given reference, only that they thought the globe to be smaller than it actually is), please stop raising straw men.
I don't think you're misunderstood or misquoted, rather your biased campaigns against Europeans are repeatedly pointed out. You continuously downplay the achievements of Europeans and attempt various kinds of revisionism in a mythical battle between "native Europeans" and "native Americans".
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
Amerigo is why America is named America but he never set foot in the Americas. |
He did.
Edited by Chilbudios - 24-Apr-2008 at 17:29
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 17:44 |
Originally posted by Chilbudios
...You're wrong.
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I disagree
Originally posted by Chilbudios
...
Also the Norse didn't own a hemisphere nor anyone discovered a new hemisphere (hemisphere means half of globe, in case you are not familiar with the term - as long as the Earth was known to be round it always had two hemispheres based on any given reference, only that they thought the globe to be smaller than it actually is), please stop raising straw men.
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I know hemisphere mean half the globe. What it seems to me you are not aware is that the term "Western Hemisphere" is used as a synonim of "the Americas" and "the New World". Just terminology. In that sense, Vikings had no clue they were in such a magnificent place like the Americas
Originally posted by Chilbudios
...
I don't think you're misunderstood or misquoted, rather your biased campaigns against Europeans are repeatedly pointed out. You continuously downplay the achievements of Europeans and attempt various kinds of revisionism in a mythical battle between "native Europeans" and "native Americans".
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I don't have anything against Eupeans. I just have tried to take a little bit of gas out of theirs egos inflated like baloons
With respect to the achievements of "Europeans", I wonder which Europeans. The term European as an identity is very recent. Each nation of Europe has contributed to the progress of mankind one way or the other. However, believing Europe is some sort of special place, or that had the monopoly in progress, culture or intelligence, is simply outdated.
With respect of the "mythical battle", the genocide that Northern Europeans practised agains American Indians, I believe it is just a proof there was nothing mythical in those encounters fueled by greed. I wish Spaniards would return the silver they robbed in the Americas as well, and that French could receive in Paris all the Haitians they brough to the Americas to live like hell in Haiti.
Yes, Europe has a long debt with the Americas, I am afraid.
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The Canadian Guy
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 17:55 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Originally posted by pinguin
Are you sure? prove it he realize where he was |
Is it so strange not to realize you're in Newfoundland when nobody you could possibily know Newfoundaland exists, and when Newfoundland isn't even called Newfoundland yet?
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Hey St. Johns is my hometown...I am a Newfoundlander and dam proud of it. I have been in the Nordic settlements in Newfoundland before.
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Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 17:58 |
Originally posted by Pinguin
I disagree |
Oh, so you believe Newfoundland is an arctic island following "logically" after Greenland (or "somewhere in Greenland" as you said in your first mention on Leif)?
I know hemisphere mean half the globe. What it seems to me you are not aware is that the term "Western Hemisphere" is used as a synonim of "the Americas" and "the New World". Just terminology. In that sense, Vikings had no clue they were in such a magnificent place like the Americas |
You said previously:
"Otherwise, it doesn't make sense Norse abandoned an hemisphere just because a little trouble."
and
"The same with Columbus that believed he discovered "a route to India", and never imagined he was in a new hemisphere."
In none of the above replacing "hemisphere" with "Western Hemisphere" makes sense. Nice try, but the fault was yours not mine.
I don't have anything against Eupeans. I just have tried to take a little bit of gas out of theirs egos inflated like baloons
With respect to the achievements of "Europeans", I wonder which Europeans. The term European as an identity is very recent. Each nation of Europe has contributed to the progress of mankind one way or the other. However, believing Europe is some sort of special place, or that had the monopoly in progress, culture or intelligence, is simply outdated.
With respect of the "mythical battle", the genocide that Northern Europeans practised agains American Indians, I believe it is just a proof there was nothing mythical in those encounters fueled by greed. I wish Spaniards would return the silver they robbed in the Americas as well, and that French could receive in Paris all the Haitians they brough to the Americas to live like hell in Haiti.
Yes, Europe has a long debt with the Americas, I am afraid. |
Quod erat demonstrandum.
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The Canadian Guy
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 18:07 |
Also being First-Nations Canadian(for most ppl were called Amerindian)in the history of the Americas....my ancestors travels here but the Asian continent and some from the European continent(many don't realize that there was also an ice path form Europe as well). The first Europeans we the Northmans and they settled in what we call now "Newfoundland" and they settled there for many reasons(wood, iron and escape for the law). Then soon after Columbus set out to discover a quicker trade route to east Asia and mistakenly found the Caribbean. So over time he rapes and committed genocide to the Caribs. And for the Chinese man...I have no knowledge of. The the true first powers of Europe came to claim the Americas...than the four of the mightiest one were England, France, Holland and Spain. The Spanish controlled most of the Caribbean, the French controlled most of Canada, the English most the the USA and Holland had trade ports form New York to the Caribbean. I hope this can shed light on these arguments for everyone.
Edited by The Canadian Guy - 24-Apr-2008 at 18:24
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 18:29 |
Originally posted by Chilbudios
... Oh, so you believe Newfoundland is an arctic island following "logically" after Greenland (or "somewhere in Greenland" as you said in your first mention on Leif)?
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Don't put words in my mouth. Norse didn't know what they had found. Period.
Originally posted by Chilbudios
You said previously:
"Otherwise, it doesn't make sense Norse abandoned an hemisphere just because a little trouble."
and
"The same with Columbus that believed he discovered "a route to India", and never imagined he was in a new hemisphere."
In none of the above replacing "hemisphere" with "Western Hemisphere" makes sense. Nice try, but the fault was yours not mine.
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What doesn't make sense is to say "Leif Ericsson discovered the Americas" . That's the wild claim. The guy didn't realize he wasn't in Europe .
Originally posted by Chilbudios
Originally posted by Pinguin
Yes, Europe has a long debt with the Americas, I am afraid. |
Quod erat demonstrandum.
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Amen
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 18:39 |
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
Also being First-Nations Canadian(for most ppl were called Amerindian)in the history of the Americas....my ancestors travels here but the Asian continent and some from the European continent(many don't realize that there was also an ice path form Europe as well). The first Europeans we the Northmans and they settled in what we call now "Newfoundland" and they settled there for many reasons(wood, iron and escape for the law).
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Did they settled? All that has been found of the Norse in New Foundland was a small post. Something like the bases in the Antartic that some modern nations have. Places were people lived part time. I wouldn't call that a "settlement"
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
Then soon after Columbus set out to discover a quicker trade route to east Asia and mistakenly found the Caribbean. So over time he rapes and committed genocide to the Caribs.
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Please, show evidence that Columbus personally commited rapes. With respect to genocide, you could find quite a bit of Amerindian genetics in the Caribbean and the historical records show admixture, rather than extermination of natives at the North American style, I am afraid.
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
The the true first powers of Europe came to claim the Americas...than the four of the mightiest one were England, France, Holland and Spain.
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You forgot Portugal, a lot more important than Holland, I am afraid. Portugal was the largest slave trader and also got Brazil, which is half of South America.
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
The Spanish controlled most of the Caribbean,
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Spaniards controlled more of the Western Hemisphere, from Florida and most of the South West of the United States, Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean and Half South America. That makes the largest chunk of the Americas, and still today the former Spanish colonies have the largest territories and populations of this side of the world. Spanish is also the language more spoken in the Americas.
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
the French controlled most of Canada, the English most the the USA
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Not really, French controlled Quebec and Louisiana, besides Haiti and a Guyana. The English controlled just a coastal part of Eastern North America and some small spots in the Caribbean, South and Central America.
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
and Holland had trade ports form New York to the Caribbean.
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Small territories, indeed.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 18:50 |
. In that sense, Vikings had no clue they were in such a magnificent place like the Americas |
They made a clear distinction between Greenland and Vinland. They also used Vinland for timber so they could keep the Greenland settlements going.
By the way, Greenland is considered apart of North America by geogrophy. Due to the inhabitants though, they are closer to Europe. So in that regard, the Norse did discover North America for Europe. And the idea of Vinland never disappeared from what I understand, even though the Norse left it.
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