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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tamerlane
    Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 17:44
This is not incorrect, but like I said the whole region of Maverannarh was sometimes referred as Mogolistan by the outsiders, while it's true that this name originages from the name of the state in the Eastern Turkestan established by Togluk-Timur in the 14th century.  For the same reason, the dynasty established by Babur was called "great Mughal."
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 18:08
Moghulistan was precisely used for the eastern part of the Chaghatai Kahnate after the split-up of the khanate. so Bulldog is correct.

Originally posted by Zagros

He was a sociopath, look up the meaning.   He expressed admiration, yet at he same time was very happy to kill mercilessly and salt the earth, destroy irrigation in vindictive acts of terror and actually attempt to bury the civilisation.  Sounds pretty unstable to me.  Or maybe you have read his memoirs completely and know something I don't?  In which case it would be polite to actually make a proper response and share some information.

Your selective quoting and out of context comments are...
 


he was no sociopath, sources describe him as intellectual with deep knowledge and understanding of things, including "biased western travelers". he razed cities that rebelled against him, commonplace.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 18:45
Mogolistan was sometimes used as a reference for the Central Asia as whole as well. I think I made it clear in my post that Bulldog is correct already.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 18:51
i never heard that Moghulistan was used for all of Central Asia...
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 19:36
Originally posted by Temujin

Moghulistan was precisely used for the eastern part of the Chaghatai Kahnate after the split-up of the khanate. so Bulldog is correct.

Originally posted by Zagros

He was a sociopath, look up the meaning.   He expressed admiration, yet at he same time was very happy to kill mercilessly and salt the earth, destroy irrigation in vindictive acts of terror and actually attempt to bury the civilisation.  Sounds pretty unstable to me.  Or maybe you have read his memoirs completely and know something I don't?  In which case it would be polite to actually make a proper response and share some information.

Your selective quoting and out of context comments are...
 


he was no sociopath, sources describe him as intellectual with deep knowledge and understanding of things, including "biased western travelers". he razed cities that rebelled against him, commonplace.
 
Sociopathic doesn't mean stupid.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 20:21
Originally posted by Temujin

i never heard that Moghulistan was used for all of Central Asia...
 
I did. Though, I agree that Mogolistan would be more proper to use with regard to Eastern Turkestan only.
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  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 03:44
Originally posted by kafkas

Originally posted by Guess


Was he really a mongol or was he more turkish? Did he basically reconquer the original Mongol empire? 

He was a "Turko-Mongol" implying he was a Turk with Mongol roots and heritage, but back then there really wasn't too much of a difference between them anyway.
I also think
Let's make list of his Mongolness and Tyurkness.
 
As a pro-mongol point of view I can write down following
 
He is Mongol from Chagatain Ulus
- His root is Mongol. His clan Barulas was sub-division of Borjigin Mongols which was main group of Mongols from.
- His geneology is full of Mongol names which proves He was Mongol
- He is name is Tamer.  Mongolian name. There were lots of Mongolian generals and khans with name Tamer/Temir/Temer
- Barulas were still in Mongol tradition in many ways, they had Mongol hair cut. Even Tamerlane had Mongolian style hair cut.
- His army is organised in Mongolian system 10, 1000. Even there were Mongolian words in miliraty use like  boronjur/borongor  ( Mongolian Barungar- right wing/hand) jonour/javongor (mongolian- zuungar- leftwing/ hand)
- Unlike their Turkic brothers who were more settled, Tamerlanes were still more nomadic like Mongols.
- Tamerlane followed Mongol tradition- only Chingisids were supposed to be Khans. He did not dare to call himself Khan, instead he stayed as Amir/Emir.
- His wars / war motives were totally controlled by his ambition. Not about for religion, not about for turkic brotherhood
- He was even more ambitious to conquer China Ming dynasty. Prior his expedition he was in contact with Mongols and military route/ supplies were spied by Tamerlane. But he was too old.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 13:47

I've gone over this countless times, there is no "speculation" on what Amir Temur was, there is no need to guess or invent theories, he clearly stated what he is and his origin.

"Biz kim, Mulki Turon, Amiri Turkistonmiz:
(We are the possessors of Turan and Emir of Turkestan)

Biz ki Trk oğlu Trk'z;
(We are Turks that are the sons of Turks)

Biz kim millatlarning eng qadimi va eng ulugi
(We are the members of the oldest and the greatest nations)

Turkning bosh boginimiz"
(We are the leaders of Turks)
 

In his memoirs Timur gave the following information about his ancestry:

My father told me that we were descendants from Abu-al-Atrak (father of the Turks) the son of Japhet. His fifth son, Aljeh Khan, had twin sons, Tatar and Mogul, who placed their feet on the paths of infidelity. Tumene Khan had a son Kabul, whose son, Munga Bahadur, was the father of Temugin, called Zengis Khan. Zengis Khan abandoned the duty of a conqueror by slaughtering the people, and plundering the dominions of God, and he put many thousands of Muslims to death. He bestowed Mawur-ulnaher on his son Zagatai, and appointed my ancestor, Karachar Nevian, to be his minister. "Karacher appointed the plain of Kesh for the residence of the tribe of Berlas (his own tribe), and he subdued the countries of Kashgar, Badakshan, and Andecan. He was succeeded by his son Ayettekuz as Sepah Salar (general). Then followed my grandfather, the Ameer Burkul, who retired from office, and contented himself with the government of his own tribe of Berlas. He possessed an incalculable number of sheep and goats, cattle and servants. On his death my father succeeded, but he also preferred seclusion, and the society of learned men."

 
 
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  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 17:09
Thanks for the info.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 17:24
Originally posted by Zagros

The man was a blight who sent the middle east back to the stone age.


The Mongols managed that quite effectively before Timur came on the scene. Their invasion of the Caliphate devastaed a largerly agrarian society and destroyed irrigation so much that most of the efficiency declined within a relative short amount of time.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 18:14
Originally posted by Bulldog

I've gone over this countless times, there is no "speculation" on what Amir Temur was, there is no need to guess or invent theories, he clearly stated what he is and his origin.

"Biz kim, Mulki Turon, Amiri Turkistonmiz:
(We are the possessors of Turan and Emir of Turkestan)

Biz ki Trk oğlu Trk'z;
(We are Turks that are the sons of Turks)

Biz kim millatlarning eng qadimi va eng ulugi
(We are the members of the oldest and the greatest nations)

Turkning bosh boginimiz"
(We are the leaders of Turks)
 

In his memoirs Timur gave the following information about his ancestry:

My father told me that we were descendants from Abu-al-Atrak (father of the Turks) the son of Japhet. His fifth son, Aljeh Khan, had twin sons, Tatar and Mogul, who placed their feet on the paths of infidelity. Tumene Khan had a son Kabul, whose son, Munga Bahadur, was the father of Temugin, called Zengis Khan. Zengis Khan abandoned the duty of a conqueror by slaughtering the people, and plundering the dominions of God, and he put many thousands of Muslims to death. He bestowed Mawur-ulnaher on his son Zagatai, and appointed my ancestor, Karachar Nevian, to be his minister. "Karacher appointed the plain of Kesh for the residence of the tribe of Berlas (his own tribe), and he subdued the countries of Kashgar, Badakshan, and Andecan. He was succeeded by his son Ayettekuz as Sepah Salar (general). Then followed my grandfather, the Ameer Burkul, who retired from office, and contented himself with the government of his own tribe of Berlas. He possessed an incalculable number of sheep and goats, cattle and servants. On his death my father succeeded, but he also preferred seclusion, and the society of learned men."

 
 
 
Confused  It's hard to conclude that Tamerlan's understanding of Turkicness was identital to what we have now. According to this passage Mongols originate from "the farther of the Turks" and Genghiz khan himself was a Turk. In other words he considers both Mongols and Turks (in our modern understanding) as "Turks."
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 19:27
Originally posted by Zagros

 
Sociopathic doesn't mean stupid.


please reference me to the source of the medieval psychatrist who rendered Temr as sociopath.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 19:32
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Bulldog

I've gone over this countless times, there is no "speculation" on what Amir Temur was, there is no need to guess or invent theories, he clearly stated what he is and his origin.

"Biz kim, Mulki Turon, Amiri Turkistonmiz:
(We are the possessors of Turan and Emir of Turkestan)

Biz ki Trk oğlu Trk'z;
(We are Turks that are the sons of Turks)

Biz kim millatlarning eng qadimi va eng ulugi
(We are the members of the oldest and the greatest nations)

Turkning bosh boginimiz"
(We are the leaders of Turks)
 

In his memoirs Timur gave the following information about his ancestry:

My father told me that we were descendants from Abu-al-Atrak (father of the Turks) the son of Japhet. His fifth son, Aljeh Khan, had twin sons, Tatar and Mogul, who placed their feet on the paths of infidelity. Tumene Khan had a son Kabul, whose son, Munga Bahadur, was the father of Temugin, called Zengis Khan. Zengis Khan abandoned the duty of a conqueror by slaughtering the people, and plundering the dominions of God, and he put many thousands of Muslims to death. He bestowed Mawur-ulnaher on his son Zagatai, and appointed my ancestor, Karachar Nevian, to be his minister. "Karacher appointed the plain of Kesh for the residence of the tribe of Berlas (his own tribe), and he subdued the countries of Kashgar, Badakshan, and Andecan. He was succeeded by his son Ayettekuz as Sepah Salar (general). Then followed my grandfather, the Ameer Burkul, who retired from office, and contented himself with the government of his own tribe of Berlas. He possessed an incalculable number of sheep and goats, cattle and servants. On his death my father succeeded, but he also preferred seclusion, and the society of learned men."

 
 
 
Confused  It's hard to conclude that Tamerlan's understanding of Turkicness was identital to what we have now. According to this passage Mongols originate from "the farther of the Turks" and Genghiz khan himself was a Turk. In other words he considers both Mongols and Turks (in our modern understanding) as "Turks."


also the quotes he gave are Anatolian Turkish from what i can see. plus, only one of the three quotes implies Turkic ancestry (we are turks and descend from Turks). the other three do not imply any Turkicness at all. from which original work are those quotes?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 19:40
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Zagros

 
Sociopathic doesn't mean stupid.


please reference me to the source of the medieval psychatrist who rendered Temr as sociopath.
 
I deduced that he is a sociopath in the same way you deduced he is a genius.  Sorry if that bothers you.
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  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 20:16
Originally posted by Bulldog

In his memoirs Timur gave the following information about his ancestry:
 
Karachar Nevian- Kharachar Noyon.
 
In that memoirs. he ( someone who wrote it)  mentioned name of Chinggis Khan and was critical about his  duty of a conqueror. I don't think Tamerlane would write such thing.
 
 
After his death , his geneology is written on his tomb. As usual Mongolian names were distorted in tyurkic fashion.
So I can list is with mongolian names
Family tree:
ТИМУР, /Tamer/ Tmr
son of Taragai (in mongolian Taragai-Тарагай)
Taragai, son of Bargul' ( in mongolian Barhul -Бархул/ Barahul - Барахул)
Bargul', son of Amir Ilyngyz (Ilangas/ Jiran/ Jilan - not sure about this name)
Ilyngyz, son of Bogadur ( in mongolian Bagadur/ Bagatur-Багатур)
Bogadur, son of Andjal' nevian (in mongolian Anjila noyon-Анжила ноён)
Andjal' nevian , son of Suyunchi ( in mongolian Soyonchi-Соёнч or Snch-Снч)
Suyunchi, son of Irdamchi Barlas ( in mongolian Erdemch-barulas -Эрдэмч-барулас)
Irdamchi Barlas, son of Kachuli Bogadur (in mongolian Khachula bagatur-Хачула багатур)
Kachuli Bogadur, son of Tumen khan (in mongolian lang. (Тумэн хан)

From our ancestors, Karachar nevian first to know true God , became muslim with his people.
 
where is Karachar nevian in genelogical list? Did I miss someting?
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2008 at 01:13
Sarmat12
It's hard to conclude that Tamerlan's understanding of Turkicness was identital to what we have now. According to this passage Mongols originate from "the farther of the Turks" and Genghiz khan himself was a Turk. In other words he considers both Mongols and Turks (in our modern understanding) as "Turks."
 
This is why the term Turko-Mongol is used.
 
Amir Temur obviously regarded himself to be a Turk, being Turk in language and identity. Also religion could be a factor why he stressed this, he restored and built some architectural works for "Ahmad Yasavi" in Yassi-Hazrat-e Turkiston.
 
Also we must remember that Turks and Mongols in that period in that region were so close the distinction is blurry. Especially where there were Turko-Mongol mixed tribes, sharing the same religion and having similar lifestyles.
 
Temurs name is as Turkic as it is Mongolian, as both languages share an Altaic root there is likely to be similarities


Edited by Bulldog - 12-Apr-2008 at 01:24
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2008 at 13:59
What is the difference between Turkic and Mongolic anyway?
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2008 at 15:27
linguistic difference for starters aside from that I dont know, customs? probably, turk means strong or something like that. 
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  Quote alish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2008 at 16:54
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by bulldog

Historical records show Babur was a Timurid, direct descendant of the Timur, the Mughal name is a misnomer, they were Timurids driven out of Turkistan south to India.

Anyone coming from central asia was called a mongol (Mughal) during that period of Indian history.


Baraka top .....! You are right, Omar.....and it was not only in India but the rest of the world.....! Especially russians were very comfortable with this misunderstanding....!

Also......
Temur's real influence and role in world history is  dramatically underestimated......
Besides, his personality is treated as "ruthless killer" and "destroyer of civilizations"(without real facts), BUT nothing else.... !!!

I wonder why he was buried  near  his Master (whom Temur highly respected) with respect that his Master's dead body lies ahead of his own (fact).... no matter he could treat the kings of Europe equally to his sons with kind respect (fact)... Doesn't it say anything about a person....
I mean.... how about real approach with real facts rather than to believe all those falsified or misunderstood information FROM PEOPLE WHO HATED Temur.....?!?!?!?!?


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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2008 at 17:04
Originally posted by alish



Baraka top .....! You are right, Omar.....and it was not only in India but the rest of the world.....! Especially russians were very comfortable with this misunderstanding....!

 
Russians didn't call Central Asia "Mogolistan." And from the very beginning they started to call Mongols "Tatars." The name "Mungals" was only briefly mentioned in Russian chronicles and quickly faded.
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