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The Macedonian Question.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 20:14
Originally posted by xristar


The local population was uneducated simple folk, and they had no noatinal conciousness apart from 'christian'.


Well in that region it was not different for the Greeks in the education part. No jobs, poverty, no schools. I see the issue arrising in another way around as well, cause whatever mechanisms arose that time were not random. The whole idea i believe has an innocent origin. Let me give you an example:

Back in the late 19th/early 20th century Philip and Goran are two friends from a village with mixed population. Philip speaks Greek to his kids and Goran slavic. In the afternoon they both meet at the local cafe or tavern. The current situation in the Balkans trouble them. Southern Greece is free and recently the Greek borders reached Thessaly. Bulgaria gets stronger and so does Serbia. Philip tells Goran about the Greek achievements in the South and dreams about a life in Macedonia free from Ottoman rule. Then Goran asks "When are we Macedonians gonna do something for our freedom?". His question goes for everyone that want to see that region free no matter what his background is.

This imaginary but very probable story of mine can demonstrate how things started. You have a group of people of different backgrounds uniting ideally for the same cause. While this feeling gets stronger, other mechanisms start to work in the background like for example the churches which in the end force this mass to start fighting eachother.


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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 20:21
Flipper, I disagreed with that comment, not only because of comment on education (which I'm sure it was true for a large segment of the population), but for the following two reasons:
- there was a large Muslim population in Macedonia at the end of the 19th century - so they couldn't feel "christian"
- most Bulgarians from Macedonia fled to Bulgaria, most Turks from Macedonia fled to Turkey, etc. - so they had some sense of national/ethnic identity
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 20:25
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Yes but it happened basically in Makedonia, FYRO Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey as a result of a war. That part did not affect just Greece and the region of Makedonia but the other countries and their region as well. Remember that Ionia was emptied for that reason, so all that is another story that affected everyone
You are entitled to claim a fair study of history and to unbound modern politics of fallacious protochronisms and irredentism. This is as much as my sympathy goes for the Greeks when they argue about having a country bordering them named Macedonia. But Macedonia did not have even a Greek majority before the Balkan wars, so your province is as artificial and as modern as FYROM, they were both created in the 20th century. If weren't for some extremist FYROM-ers, I believe they would have the same right as the Greeks to name their country Macedonia (I think I provided already this example in another thread: Romania has a historical province named Moldova which is neighboured by Republic of Moldova, and there's no quarrel about names).



Thank you Smile

I never denied what you said above. However, just a note. We were not in possition eather to name it Macedonia since the Ottomans were the administration. It is not like we didn't call that area Macedonia. Our newspapers of the region beared that term and so did our writters. But yes, the province is not old at all.

And yes I agree that they could use the name like any other country in the world that names places after names related to Greece, IF, the past had no issues. As I said before when the state was created the best solution would be to make a friendly approach and discuss the possibilities of that naming. If those possibilities (and if the past was ok) were discussed and agreed in terms then i don't see a reason why that wouldn't be possible to go through.


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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 20:32
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Flipper, I disagreed with that comment, not only because of comment on education (which I'm sure it was true for a large segment of the population), but for the following two reasons:
- there was a large Muslim population in Macedonia at the end of the 19th century - so they couldn't feel "christian"
- most Bulgarians from Macedonia fled to Bulgaria, most Turks from Macedonia fled to Turkey, etc. - so they had some sense of national/ethnic identity


You're right about the Muslims. However, most of them fled to Turkey and some managed to make it to Bulgaria.

As for the national identity i believe it is regional. I mean, some areas might have been cut off from Greek, respectively Bulgarian influence and could therefore be in the middle of nowhere. I believe that those were mainly the regions where the Greek and Bulgarian churches did have a party, not in the solid areas.

There's also a story saying that during the Greco-Bulgarian exchanges the following question was asked to the inhabitants: Solun or Thessaloniki.

No matter of ethnic background, if a a person that wanted to stay in the area said "Tessaloniki" instead of a clear Greek Theta sound, he would be taken to the Bulgarian side.


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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 20:33
Chilbudios,i agree with you,but you should also remember that Greeks are Greeks and the question wether Ancient Macedonian heritage belongs to them they leave it to the historians.Now the fact is that the Greek region of Macedonia is within Greek borders,and when you have Slavo-Macedonians try to make up an nationaly based on the cultural heritage of ancient Macedonia,then that is territorial claim against Greece.
 
The Macedonians argument seams to be that they are not claiming any territory that today belongs to Greece,but they simply want recognition of their fictious History.
Greece in my opinion can not allow it,simply because recognising an untrue,it would be giving way in the future to legal demands on their teritory.
 
And as i said before when one is in front of this particular issue,should not forget the very simple fact.
 
Had the establishment of Macedonia not put at the foundations of a slavo-Macedonian nationality the cultural heritage of ancient Macedonia (but simply carry on with its life,and leave history to historians),Greece would not bother alot about the name.Anybody should keep this in mind as far as this issue is concerned.Thats the bottom line.
 
As i have said in my previous posts,Macedonia is try to create an Slavo-Macedonian ethinicity with the cultural heritage of ancient Macedonia,thats the problem,it even wanted to include the Albanian population in this pure lunacy.
 
 
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 20:59
Originally posted by HEROI

you should also remember that Greeks are Greeks
 
So what does this make the child of black immigrants, born and raised in Greece?
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 21:43
Sure, they were also retarded and awaiting for civilizational light from the Greeks.

Dead

But Macedonia did not have even a Greek majority before the Balkan wars, so your province is as artificial and as modern as FYROM, they were both created in the 20th century.

Are you sure about this?
And how exactly do you define 'greek'?

Romania has a historical province named Moldova which is neighboured by Republic of Moldova, and there's no quarrel about names).

1) Romanians and Moldavians are of the same nationality.
2) No name dispute, but IIRC Romania claims that Moldova should be part of her...

Flipper, I disagreed with that comment, not only because of comment on education (which I'm sure it was true for a large segment of the population), but for the following two reasons:
- there was a large Muslim population in Macedonia at the end of the 19th century - so they couldn't feel "christian"
- most Bulgarians from Macedonia fled to Bulgaria, most Turks from Macedonia fled to Turkey, etc. - so they had some sense of national/ethnic identity

1) I was reffering to the christian population. So, for your case there were two nations: muslims and christians. And that's a fact, because the ottomans used this classification to define nations (milliet). And by the late 19th century, in Macedonia people still used this classification. It was right at this time that the enlightment age and nationalism reached to that corner of the world with significant influence, and the dispute begins.
2)I assure you, that many non-turkish muslims (such as albanians, pomaks) left for Turkey as well. And how do you define 'bulgarians'?

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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 21:53
You misunderstood my point,what i mean is that Greeks have a Greek identity and the Greeks who live in Macedonian Greece are not Macedonians but Greeks.And historical heritage of Ancient Macedonia is for history and historians.
 
Greek dont claim history of ancient Macedonia because they live today were ancient Macedonia was once,but they claim it in the sense that ancient Macedonians were Greeks.And i can understand this point,but not the point that just by living in this land today Slavo-Macedonians claim the history of ancient Macedonia,and even claim ancient Macedonia to have been Slavonic,thats just because in their confussion they have contradictory identities,a Slavonic one,and an Ethinc Macedonian one.
 
The phenomen of the child of a black imigrant born and raised in Greece has not yet hapened unfortunately,but when it does happen i just hope that Greek government would have become civilised enough to respect them as Greeks.
Entirely out of the topic,but about a thousend of Albanian imigrants in Greece just about a month ago got Greek citisenship,with agreat ceremony,thats 17 years after they imigrated there,and after a 15 years period of naturalisation which included being provided with an HOMOGENUS CARD,thats right,homogenus card,in case you did not understand means that the person who holds it qualifies to be called Greek homogen,in a country that claims to be more then 90% homogen.Almost all of the imigrants in question are poor villagers from Albania who had to make fake pasports in Albania with Greek sounding names,in order to get the Homogenus Card in Greece.Imagine.
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 22:08
So then the question can be, if the Greeks are progressive to accept resident Albanians as the same as them and not to base Greekness on an antiquated ethnic based analysis. What is their objection to Macedonians? Culturally Greeks are no closer to Socrates than Macedonians, or your average resident of Beijing or Lima as a matter of fact.
 
 
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 22:15
Originally posted by xristar

Are you sure about this?
And how exactly do you define 'greek'?
We can search for more books if you like.
 
1) Romanians and Moldavians are of the same nationality.
2) No name dispute, but IIRC Romania claims that Moldova should be part of her...
1) Few years ago the Moldavian parliament had a law about the Moldavian "national conception" where it was admitted that Romanian and Moldavian language had a common past and origin, but that in present there are differences in their languages of two distinct nationalities.
2) There's no such official claim.
 
was reffering to the christian population. So, for your case there were two nations: muslims and christians. And that's a fact, because the ottomans used this classification to define nations (milliet). And by the late 19th century, in Macedonia people still used this classification. It was right at this time that the enlightment age and nationalism reached to that corner of the world with significant influence, and the dispute begins.
The Ottoman millets were not defining nations, but religious confessions.
 
I assure you, that many non-turkish muslims (such as albanians, pomaks) left for Turkey as well. And how do you define 'bulgarians'?
True, but the incomparable with the number of Turks or Bulgarians which fled to "their" countries.
And for Albanians:
For this too we can also can find more books if you like.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 27-Mar-2008 at 22:30
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 22:24
You still dont understand that they re accepting them on an antiquated ethnic analisysis.
Which means they accept this person as a person as a Greek homogen from Greek ancestry.
Even thou the guy is not Greek,they make him Greek,not only him,but his father,and his ancesters as well,so that the person can qualifye as such.
 
Now back to the topic.
As i told you,Macedonians claim an national identity based on ancient Macedonian ancestry and cultural heritage,and ancient Macedonia is nearly half of what Greece is today,thats why there is an objection,and rightly so.
I told you in the above post,Greeks who live in what used to be ancient Macedonia dont claim to be Ancient Macedonians but Greeks,and they claim the history of the ancient Macedonians in the sense that they were Greeks to.But this still is a matter for historians,while Macedonia is a state that is puting at the hart of a pseudo-nationality it wants to create ,the ancient macedonian ancestry,hitorical heritage etc,now why should that exlude the teritory of the ancient macedonia aswell,since one claims everything else,why should one stop short of claiming the land also,which is the most important element.
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 22:29
Basically you agree with me.

We can search for more books if you like.
I was reffering to the christian population. As your source points out, in greek macedonia, greeks were a majority among the christian population.
The Ottoman millets were not defining nations, but religious confessions.

With modern terms yes. But not at that time.

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 22:39
Basically you agree with me.
No. I claim there were ethnic identities (of Vlachs, of Albanians, of Bulgarians, of Greeks) long before 19th century. True, they changed in time, but this is another issue.
 
I was reffering to the christian population. As your source points out, in greek macedonia, greeks were a majority among the christian population.
You were refereing to the entire population (your message started with: "The name 'macedonians' was given to this people" and that paragraph started with "The local population was uneducated simple folk"), and I was also refering to the entire population when I claimed the Greeks were not a majority in Macedonia in the 19th century.
 
With modern terms yes. But not at that time.
Later it defined also nations, that's why we can have a situation like when sultan Abdul Hamid II created a millet for Vlachs in 1905.


Edited by Chilbudios - 27-Mar-2008 at 22:40
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The current territory known as Macedonia comprises only half of historical Macedonia or less. 
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Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 00:03
Originally posted by Zagros

The current territory known as Macedonia comprises only half of historical Macedonia or less. 


Heh, so much confusion can erupt with single words. What do you mean historical Macedonia?

Ancient Macedonia?
Ancient Macedonia after Philip that tripled its size?
The Roman province?
The Byzantine province?
The Ottoman province?

Go figure.


Edited by Vorian - 28-Mar-2008 at 00:04
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 00:14
The ancient kingdom.

Edited by Zagros - 28-Mar-2008 at 00:15
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 00:20
The original macedonian tribe lived somewhere in today's southwestern part of greek Macedonia. All their capitals lie within greek territory.
Basically, even the macedonians themselves were a minority in their kingdom, which encompassed several tribes, greek and nongreek.

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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 14:35
Originally posted by Zagros

The ancient kingdom.


Let me add some details on Xristars post.

During the early years it seems that they inhabited only upper Macedonia which is not translated as the northern part, but the mountainous area of the southwestern part of what we currently call macedonia. So, upper Macedonia are just the highlands in the south.
The Lower Macedonia, which is the region of todays Beria and the Thessaloniki province was colonized by other people like the Cretan Bottons during bronze age - Corinthians (archeologically speaking only) and Chalkideans (who displaced the Cadmeians in Chalkidike) during the archaic years.

Chalkidike and southern lower Macedonia has Cadmeians.

In the location of Edessa and Vergina is possesed by Phrygians until the geometric period, when they move and establish their new Kindom in Anatolia.

In other words, in the beginning we're speaking about a small area in the south, mainly mountainous.

The Kindom was first established with the comming of the Argeads, when Karanos became a King of the main Kindom. That's when Pella and Vergina become Royal seats.

I'm at work now so i don't have any maps...I will find sothing for you for each period.


Also...Note that the tribe of Makedones during the 15th - 13th century is not necessaraly the same people like the Macedonian citizens during Hellenistic years. The isolated Elimnian Macedonians were probably more related to them than the citizens living in Chalkidiki and Linkestis.

It is basically the same case like the Spartans of Sparta and the "Spartans" of Kynouria. The first are Dorians while the others are assimilated Ionians who adopted the name and speach.


Edited by Flipper - 28-Mar-2008 at 14:54


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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 14:59
Originally posted by xristar

Basically, even the macedonians themselves were a minority in their kingdom, which encompassed several tribes, greek and nongreek.
 
Who were nongreek tribes?
.
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