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The Macedonian Question.

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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 13:04
It would be better if Balkan states would stop teaching history as a school subject for about 50 years. Their relationships would improve in no time.

Edited by Roberts - 05-Apr-2008 at 16:33
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 13:12

Greece is not using an historical claim,or even an historical argument against Macedonia calling itself that.

But when Macedonia calls itself Macedonia with the idea that its the continuation of Ancient Macedonia,then Greece is forced to react.More then 50% of that is within Greek teritory.
 
And thats something that the Macedonians agree aswell,they just view it as ocupied teritory.Anybody with litle hitorical knowledge about the region would clearly see this is madnes.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 16:47
Originally posted by Roberts

It would be better if Balkan states would stop teaching history as a school subject for about 50 years. Their relationships would improve in no time.
Americans proposed and promoted and something else. To re-write history and cut off the past.......like 1984 and Orwell Shocked

Your thinking is not to far from Orwell.



Edited by akritas - 05-Apr-2008 at 23:06
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:01
Heroi, all the Balkan states re-wrote their history several times in the past several decades. Depending on politics, depending on the flavor of the nationalist culture in that moment of time. FYROM-ers must be educated, not bullyed. Besides, Greek response to FYROM is also flawed and propagandistic. I've seen claims with Macedonia being Greek for 4000 years!!!! - e.g. Sakellariou's "Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek History and Civilization". Saying that Macedonia was Greek 4000 years ago or saying that Macedonia was Slavic 2400 years ago (in the age of Alexander the Great) looks the same to me - false and agenda-driven. I said it once, the Greeks should remember first that 100 years ago, the Greek population of the Greek Macedonia was not even 50% of the total population of this region! Greeks and FYROM-ers are guilty all together for using an absurd appeal to history to justify their "right" to bear a name. This is just stupid.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 19:52
Originally posted by HEROI

No they have to maintain their Slavic identity as well as claim historical heritage of an Ancient tribe,the teritory of which is devided in 3 modern states,Greece,Bulgaria and FYROM,
 
For the first time I agree with you, HEROI. However I am sure most of Greeks wouldn't agree. Their claim is that Macedonians is slavonic nation that has nothing to do with ancient people living in those lands in antiquity.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 15:55
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by HEROI

No they have to maintain their Slavic identity as well as claim historical heritage of an Ancient tribe,the teritory of which is devided in 3 modern states,Greece,Bulgaria and FYROM,
 
For the first time I agree with you, HEROI. However I am sure most of Greeks wouldn't agree. Their claim is that Macedonians is slavonic nation that has nothing to do with ancient people living in those lands in antiquity.
 
Good Anton,cause thats what i am try to explain ,like you say i absolutely dont doubt the ancient component in todays Macedonia,why shoul i,certainly nobody shiped them to mars,they are mixed with local populations,wether in Bulgaria,Greece or Fyrom.
Why should not Bulagria claim Ancient Macedonia aswell?It has the same right to do so as FYROM.Or at least call its region wich used to be part of ancient Macedonia,the Macedonian region.
 
Based on this,FYROM has no right to claim the name by itself.Its only 30% of what ancient Macedonia was.
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 16:06
Originally posted by Chilbudios

FYROM-ers must be educated, not bullyed
 
Thats right ,but today we are in front of an issue and is not the time to educate but to take decissions.
Besides, Greek response to FYROM is also flawed and propagandistic. I've seen claims with Macedonia being Greek for 4000 years!!!! 
I agree with you,but the official line of the Greek government is not that,in every country you will have people who make ridicolous claims,is important to base your opinion on what is the general line that the establishment follows.
 
 - e.g. Sakellariou's "Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek History and Civilization". Saying that Macedonia was Greek 4000 years ago or saying that Macedonia was Slavic 2400 years ago (in the age of Alexander the Great) looks the same to me - false and agenda-driven.
 
we totally agree on this one
I said it once, the Greeks should remember first that 100 years ago, the Greek population of the Greek Macedonia was not even 50% of the total population of this region! Greeks and FYROM-ers are guilty all together for using an absurd appeal to history to justify their "right" to bear a name. This is just stupid.
 
Fine but you should understand that is not Greece that is claiming anything Macedonian,it is Macedonia that claims Greek territory,thats were the problem is,Greece is not using the historical argument this time,is leaving that to historians,look at the declarations of their politicians.And look on the other hand the histeria that has captured all politicians and scholars in Macedonia,they are convincing themselves with the myths they create.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 19:54
The Macedonian claim on Greek territory is rather benign. It was a dubios article from their constitution (something about their right to annex territories where FYROM-ers are minorities), which can be easily revised (if it was not already), and there is some circumstantial evidence of FYROM politicians or official organisations being caught in different hypostases (some rather inconclusive, like the picture earlier presented in the thread with Gotse Delcev's monument). More serious, IMO, is the school education which shapes the mentality of the next generations.  
 
And Greece is using history all the time, I don't remember to have seen a Greek protest on FYROM's name which didn't appeal to history. Here's an example:
 
So, let's take distance from this and remark the histeria captured politicans and scholars from both countries, and both sides are convincing themselves with the myths they create. I am far from siding with FYROM on all they do.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 00:53
any claim on someone elses' territiory is far from benign, espeically the size of that claim. How do we not know in the future, backed by a super power that this would not bite greece on the arse. Best to 'clear the decks' now and make sure in no uncertain terms that they have no business with our north, historically or on any other claimable level. i good place to start is to distinguish the broader region from this republic
 
 
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 11:09
Leonidas, can you give me a declaration of FYROM officials saying that they intend to take Macedonia from Greece? I didn't find one so far, thus what you call a claim I only see a benign form of irredentism which exists in many countries in this world. It is wrong, we should have it contained, but it's no need to create hysteria on it.
 
If in future a superpower can dismember Macedonia from Greece even if FYROM will be called Third Mars Republic or if they'd say "we have no territorial claims from Greece, but from Japan". In a superpower scenario it really doesn't matter what FYROM-ers want, but what the superpower wants. I want to remind you that one of the recent press articles reported that one of the current superpowers allegedly named this conflict as "world stupidest major issue". IMO, this says a lot about Greece' fears.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 18:16
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Heroi, all the Balkan states re-wrote their history several times in the past several decades. Depending on politics, depending on the flavor of the nationalist culture in that moment of time. FYROM-ers must be educated, not bullyed. Besides, Greek response to FYROM is also flawed and propagandistic. I've seen claims with Macedonia being Greek for 4000 years!!!! - e.g. Sakellariou's "Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek History and Civilization". Saying that Macedonia was Greek 4000 years ago or saying that Macedonia was Slavic 2400 years ago (in the age of Alexander the Great) looks the same to me - false and agenda-driven. I said it once, the Greeks should remember first that 100 years ago, the Greek population of the Greek Macedonia was not even 50% of the total population of this region! Greeks and FYROM-ers are guilty all together for using an absurd appeal to history to justify their "right" to bear a name. This is just stupid.


I've been away for some days and I'm not responding specifically to you Chibuldios by quoting this. You just happen to include most things.

I think none of us here is capable of judging if citizens in FYROM has a link or not to some ancient people. I won't dismiss that possibility.

Now, to start with the basics. The last 20 years, based on the latest historical analysis and archeology, scholars are divided based on the following Macedonian experts or "Macedonians" as many of those refer to each other.

Pro - Greeks                                   Skeptics
N.G.L Hammond                               Eugene Borza
Malcom Errington
Olivier Masson

Those are the big heads. I could mention Mentesidi as well, since she is the most successfull archeologist on the matter but lets skip her since she is Greek and I want to avoid that comment comming from others. On the other hand I could mention FYROM scholars like Mitrevski and Gligorov that could be included on the pro Greek side. Anyway, lets keep it on the big names.

No matter which side we take, one thing is certain. Macedonians, whether they were originally Greeks or not, became and were accepted as such after a(n) (early) point in time. Persians, Jews, Egyptians, Bactrians and other people saw them as that. One of the oldest Greek cities in history, Aiani, lies in upper Macedonia (note upper reffers to the highlands not the northern part) and counts a history as an organized city from the early bronze age. During the middle 5th century the whole region of Macedonia receives massive populations from Mycenae and Eubea.

I don't want to become tiresome but what we can say for sure is that Macedonia counts Greek presence for a very long time. Some of the people who reached Asia and Egypt, speak a distinct dialect of Greek, not slavic nor a lost ghost language.

Now, what happened in the middle ages is another story. At that time, we can't speak of citizens of Macedonia as Ancient Macedonians. When the slavs arrived they found Greeks (originating from all over) in that area and if they mixed with someone it was those (whether you call them Grekoi, Rum or Romioi).

Now, 3 tribes in Pakistan claim ancestry from Alexanders soldiers. After doing a research on those populations compared to people from Greece and FYROM, it was prooved that only the Pathans had certain common halotypes with Greeks. Now, those people might claim they are ancestors of the people who arrived, but unlike others, they don't say Macedonians were Pakistanis and Greeks are sub Saharans. That's where the border between the usage and missusage goes.

If those epic claims we witness now and then did not occur, we would possibly not see books like "10 000 years of Greeks in Macedonia". Extreme actions cause reactions.

Also, Sakellariou has gets often referenced by many, so i guess she is not that unreliable as some might think. I would say Kalleris is the one who gets critisism not Sakellariou.

And ofcourse, I agree FYRO Macedonians must be educated and not bullyed. That is the only solution. Once upon a time i used to refer to them as Skopjans, but now I only use FYRO Macedonians or SlavoMacedonians.

Also, about the geographic anexation. Ofcourse, Greece is not afraid of a millitary attack. It is listed between the top defensive countries in the world, both in terms of material and geographic advantages. Any re-creation of borders would be a work of a greater power not FYROM. I don't think any Greek actually believes FYROM intends to attack Greece by itself. What Greece is afraid of is an unstable situation in the balkans which could create "anarchism" and lead to a greater war that could cost the change of borders. As long as a problem exists, it can be used to easier perform such a change. I will say this again...If we were living back in 1900 and could write here who would believe me that Austohungary and Italy have an idea about a future Kosovo creation? Probably none.

Now, allow me to quote Herois previous post where he said that "if its just a name and not a big deal, tell FYROM to choose another name and lets get over it". That is the other side of the coin which I understand is not very possible eather.


Edited by Flipper - 08-Apr-2008 at 18:22


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 18:17
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Leonidas, can you give me a declaration of FYROM officials saying that they intend to take Macedonia from Greece?


I will ask a friend from Skopje to send me the irridentistic parts of their constitution with a translation.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 19:39
Friend from Skopje... WOW! :)
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 20:16
Originally posted by Anton

Friend from Skopje... WOW! :)


There's not just one. Wink
Remember Anton i've been living in many places hehe.


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 21:39

Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Chilbudios

Leonidas, can you give me a declaration of FYROM officials saying that they intend to take Macedonia from Greece?


I will ask a friend from Skopje to send me the irridentistic parts of their constitution with a translation.

 
Allow me to help you on this. FYROM constitution start......
 
The Preamble
The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, the ............. in accordance with the tradition of the Krushevo Republic and the decisions of the Antifascist Peoples Liberation Assembly of Macedonia, and the Referendum of September 8, 1991, have decided to establish the Republic of Macedonia ............., adopt .....
 
 
As you see I bold the  ASNOM or  Antifasisticko Sobranie na Narodnoto Osloboduvanje na Makedonija  in the Slavmacedonian Language. On 2 August 1944, to mark the 41st anniversary of the Ilinden Uprising, the Anti-Fascist Council of Makedonija  met at the Monastery of Prohor Ptchinski, near Kumanovo. It was this Meeting that paved the way for the founding of the Peoples Republic of Makedonija and the Republics inclusion in the Jugoslav Federation. The Meeting acknowledged the right of the Macedonian People to self-determination, and declared the anniversary of the Ilinden Uprising a national festival. From that day to this, the PRM, or SRM [Socialist Republic of Makedonija], as it was renamed a few years later, or FYROM as it became at the start of the 1990s after the break-up of Jugoslavia as a unit, has faithfully stuck to certain ideological principles, most of which have had to do with Greece.

In the manifesto of ASNOM  there is  the unification of Macedonia, based on the right of self-determination, was a primary goal:

It is essential that we unite the whole Macedonian people of the three parts of Macedonia into one Macedonian state Macedonians from Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia must follow the example of Macedonians in Jugoslav Macedonia.
 
Of course you realize what is and the today's FYROM interitist goal. FYROM  constitution is clear....!!


Edited by akritas - 08-Apr-2008 at 21:54
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 22:13
ASNOM is long ago dead and their platform was much more than re-uniting Macedonians. Continuing the traditions may mean anything. Come on, this is all you got? Like I said: benign.
 
AFAIK, FYROM constitution suffered several revisions, especially on more controversial articles. And even if today there would be some dubious phrases, Greece's goal should be to make them clear, not to change the name of its neighbour. Changing the name of another country means a disrespect of its sovereignity, exactly the thing the Greeks complain about.
 
I don't know really what's the last "version" of the Macedonian constitution nor if the following is a good translation of it (maybe Flipper's friend can come with something better), but what I've found looks promising:
 
 
Art. 3, par. 4: "The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state."


Edited by Chilbudios - 08-Apr-2008 at 22:25
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 22:35
The disrespect starts by not getting closer to your neighbour and tell him what you plan to do. Disrespect is also the use of a religious symbol of someone else on your flag. This might not apply to the majority of the Greeks but still there's a respectable number that feels represented religiously by that.

Greece does not propose the elimination of the term Macedonia anymore, but suggests a more descriptive name.

As things are today, i believe Paionian Macedonia or Vardaska Macedonia is a good descriptive name (since slavomacedonia does not apply to all its inhabitants).


Edited by Flipper - 08-Apr-2008 at 22:36


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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 22:41
So in what name Greece would like to see FYROM Macedonia named?
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 22:45
I have a recent example where a map or a name can heat up the feelings...Ironically this happens in the country which tryes to bypass the balkan problem to get FYROM into NATO asap.

How would you people characterize this? Its just a name they say...Then let me say it's just history of the past...Get over it. Confused



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080408/us_nm/mexico_absolut_dc

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - The distillers of Sweden's Absolut vodka have withdrawn an advertisement run in Mexico that angered many U.S. citizens by idealizing an early 19th century map showing chunks of the United States as Mexican.

The billboard ad has the slogan "In an Absolut World" slapped over a pre-1848 map showing California, Arizona and other U.S. states as Mexican territory. Those states were carved out of what had been Mexican lands until that year.

Although it was not shown in the United States, U.S. media outlets picked up on the ad, and after a barrage of complaints, Absolut's maker said on Sunday the ad campaign would cease.

Defending the campaign last week, Absolut maker Vin & Spirit said the ad was created "with a Mexican sensibility" and was not meant for the U.S. market.

"In no way was this meant to offend or disparage, nor does it advocate an altering of borders, nor does it lend support to any anti-American sentiment, nor does it reflect immigration issues," a spokeswoman wrote on Absolut's Web site.

"Instead, it hearkens to a time which the population of Mexico may feel was more ideal," she wrote.

Absolut's blog cite has received more than a thousand comments since the ad campaign was launched a few weeks ago, with many calling for boycotts of the Swedish company.

"I have poured the remainder of my Absolut bottles down the sink," one blogger wrote.

A war between Mexico and the United States from 1846 to 1848 started with Mexico's refusal to recognize the U.S. annexation of Texas and ended with the occupation of Mexico City by U.S. troops.

At the end, Mexico ceded nearly half of its territory to the United States, forming the states of California, Nevada, Utah and parts of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico and Wyoming.

Mexicans remain sensitive about the loss and the location of the border. At the same time, the United States is fortifying barriers to keep out undocumented Mexican migrants.

Some Mexicans use the term "Reconquista" (reconquest) to refer to the growing presence in California of Mexican migrants and their descendants.

France's Pernod Ricard is taking over Absolut vodka, one of the world's top-selling spirit brands, after buying Vin & Spirit from the Swedish government at the end of March.

(Reporting by Noel Randewich, editing by Philip Barbara)





Edited by Flipper - 08-Apr-2008 at 22:47


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 22:48
Why? Why should FYROM give Greece such reports? Why should FYROM care if some Greeks are religiously attached to their history and nationalistic symbols? Isn't Greece a secular state? Isn't Greece actually a state instead of a bunch of moody individuals? 
 
 
Flipper, does US oppose Mexico's development because of its name? No one denies Greece the right to protest against irredentism (school textbooks, national celebration with dubious irredentist messages, etc.), but we talk about denying FYROM's ascension to NATO only because of its name. This is where the things start to become absurd. This is where Greece starts to look bad. This is where Greece gets associated with fascism, etc., etc.. 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 08-Apr-2008 at 22:53
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