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The Macedonian Question.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 08:23
Flipper, that banknote does not exist.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 10:58
Afaik, it existed briefly in the '90s before being withdrawn after Greece's protests.

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 11:13

I might be wrong but as far as I know they never had a valute named "Makedonka". It is silly joke IMHO.

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 11:46
Oh, no, you are actually right, xristar. It appeared in 1992 and was quickly withdrown after Greek protest and exchenged bacvk to dinar. At least  Serbian wiki claims so:
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 11:47
However there are no links to prove that.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 11:51
This blog claims it was just one of the proposals for new valute:
but never was officially used.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 12:35

Originally posted by Flipper

It was the "moody individuals" that triggered it.
Oh, then it was a misunderstanding. "Moody individuals" was the antithesis for "state" which I consider to be an institution, i.e. individuals caught in a mechanism which provides direction and coherence.

Chibuldios, your example with Moldova would fit in a case where Cyprus and Greece came into a such point or Crete wanted to separate from the mainland and call themselves ethnic Cretans or ethnic Aegeans. It is not the same thing...
I chose Moldova because a) it has the name identity between a historical province of a state and a neighbouring state b) it was created as a SSR, presenting a similar (but not identical, of course) history with FYROM

Remember, all people are not "Chibuldios" in every part of the world and have different experiences that most of us can't live in.
I know what you mean, but you have to realize that Greece and FYROM are part of an international community and they shouldn't indulge in some "Balkanic feud". In other corners of the world the name issue was resolved relatively fast.


Chibuldios, do you remember what i said about peoples trust?
[...]
I can agree with all of your ideal thoughts Chilbudios, but in terms of keeping an agreement at 100%, whether it is politics or real life, I'm vertical. I won't even comment anything more related on being partially correct, even if that is at 99% which it is not in this case.
[...]
I think you've missed that...I've been hearing about the breaking of the "Endiamesi symphonia" (namely the interrim accord) for many years by all foreign politics ministers.
The banknote is not a good example because it is not a real one, and even if we're to credit what was written on this thread, it was before the agreement.
However Greece's Foreign Ministry complains mainly about the name, not about the agreement.
http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/
Check this out: "Since the signing of the Interim Agreement, political relations between the two countries have developed in a satisfactory manner." (and satisfactory may not mean 100%). Also: "
21 bilateral agreements and protocols, including the Interim Agreement, have been signed between Greece and FYROM although they are still pending ratification by the Hellenic Parliament due to the unresolved issue of the name."
http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm

I guess that was hypothetical, cause it would be a bias otherwise (unless we speak of fanatic christians who are found everywhere).
Of course

Greece had already denied that name in the early 90s Confused Mr Nimitz is leaving his post and probably couldn't care most about making a better proposal. As many said say why not "Republic of Skopje (Macedonija)" instead of  that proposal? Besides, predicably enough FYROM said it could be a ground for negotiations to earn time until the NATO summit and then backed when there was no time left Wink
IIRC, Nimitz' last proposals was for Greece to use "Republic of Macedonia-Skopje" (so you could still call in Greece FYROM-ers as Skopians or whatever) and the rest to use "Republic of Macedonia", since this name is already recognized by more than 100 countries worldwide.
 
Since you correctly mentioned Athenians, add Spartans and Makedones (about cities in the US) as well. That means that there's more behind it...
I'd add every pair of names suggesting people can handle it quite well, when they want to.
 
It is not about changing the name but for other filthy (not stupid) things. That's why I do not accept a diplomat working for a diplomacy of such tactics, hidden morals, and world order critisizes certain things as "Stupid". I could start talking about barbarism and attrocieties, but i simply don't care more of their opinion. They're doing their job, they have their interrestes and when these do not succeed as they want they get pissed off. It is not USs world theoretically eather. The US can take any measurements and make public statements to protect its interrests (economical, influential, geographic, strategic) worldwide but Greece cannot object to the monopoli of a name that is sentimentally bound to its citizens.
You're comparing a political or a economical interest with sentimental reactions. See now where the "stupid" comes from (in US's view, for instance)? That was my earlier point of "state" vs "individuals".
 
The application is not conditioned (see the interim accord points i posted earlier). No application can be veto'ed. The entry can. Just for the record.
True. When I said "admission" I meant "entry" not just "application for entry".
 
Greek Minister of Foreign affairds Mr Chibuldios, recognises FYROM as Macedonia against the will of 99% percent of the Greeks. The goverment looses immediately its power and the citizens do a revolt. The police is obviously unable to restore any order due to the massive numbers of people and hatred starts from more passionate makedones against the southern Greeks, which they blame for the situation.

Just a fantastic story, that hopefully won't happen even if the end of the world comes. By that i wanted to show you that they do not have that option at all. Maybe worst things could happen in such a case that i can't even imagine...I can imagine that the prefect of Thessaloniki would demand a schism of northern Greece from south and name it something like "Hellenic Democratic Republic of Ancient Macedonia".

All, these are exhagerations hopefully but still not completely unrealistic. You have underestimated the internal issue of the case...
Do you really think the Greeks will revolt and overthrow the government for allowing a "Greek" name to certain foreigners? I don't, that's why I said as a MFA of Greece I'd take that decision.
 
 
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 18:40
Originally posted by Chilbudios

The banknote is not a good example because it is not a real one, and even if we're to credit what was written on this thread, it was before the agreement.
However Greece's Foreign Ministry complains mainly about the name, not about the agreement.

Indeed the banknote has been withdrawn and replaced by this one


Originally posted by Chilbudios


http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/
Check this out: "Since the signing of the Interim Agreement, political relations between the two countries have developed in a satisfactory manner." (and satisfactory may not mean 100%). Also: "
21 bilateral agreements and protocols, including the Interim Agreement, have been signed between Greece and FYROM although they are still pending ratification by the Hellenic Parliament due to the unresolved issue of the name."
http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm


But as you can seen in the same link the name is within that agreement again. At the section below it explains the basics

1. What is the problem?

The choice of the name Macedonia by FYROM directly raises the issue of usurpation of the cultural heritage of a neighbouring country. The name constitutes the basis for staking an exclusive rights claim over the entire geographical area of Macedonia.  More specifically, to call only the Slavo-Macedonians Macedonians monopolizes the name for the Slavo-Macedonians and creates semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the individual right of the Greek Macedonians to identify themselves as such. The use of the name by FYROM alone may also create problems in the trade area, and subsequently become a potential springboard for distorting reality, and a basis for activities far removed from the standards set by the European Union and more specifically the clause on good neighbourly relations. The best example of this is to be seen in the content of school textbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

For the first time in their history, in recognition of the problem the United Nations (Security Council and General Assembly) gave the new state the temporary name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).


I don't think i need to comment more on those paragraphs.

Some paragraphs below you have the following:

On 13th September 1995, Greece and FYROM signed an Interim Agreement which constituted the point of departure for normalisation of their relations, with the only pending issue being that of the name. According to the Interim Agreement, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has officially accepted that the name of the State is a subject of bilateral negotiations with Greece, as provided for by the two Security Council Resolutions, in other words 817/93 and 845/93, and Article 5.1 of the Interim Agreement. It is therefore clear that the object of the exercise is to replace the temporary international name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia with a permanent name acceptable to both parties.
As I said, they signed it, they didn't follow it though.


Originally posted by Chilbudios

 IIRC, Nimitz' last proposals was for Greece to use "Republic of Macedonia-Skopje" (so you could still call in Greece FYROM-ers as Skopians or whatever) and the rest to use "Republic of Macedonia", since this name is already recognized by more than 100 countries worldwide.


You have missed the point there. Our aim is not to call them as Skopjans which is riddiculus, but not to monopolize the name "Macedonia/Macedonians/Macedonian" from their part. We want it to be clear that Macedonia is an area concerning various people and not one nation in present times.

Originally posted by Chilbudios


Do you really think the Greeks will revolt and overthrow the government for allowing a "Greek" name to certain foreigners? I don't, that's why I said as a MFA of Greece I'd take that decision.
 
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do believe it. Almost 3 million people inhabit the region of MaKedonia and half of them are Makedones. The rest are bound to that area too. The political cost is extreme as you might understand by the numbers. Add also that most modern Greek immigrants living outside Greece are from the region as well. In a few words, if Nea Dimokratia or any other party would let this go they would simply vanish from the political scene forever.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 18:42
What about the MaKedonia and Makedonja terms both untranslated and the sealing of the term "Macedonia" from both sides Chilbudios?


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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 08:05
I cannot understand when people simply cannot see a certain fact here. Those people living in the RM or FYROM etc, and a few Slavophones from Greek border areas are claiming to be Macedonians. Ok. But what they want to do is monopolize that identity. Why should i accept that they should be called solely Macedonians? My grandmother , who is Greek, grew up and lives in Litochoro, in the foot of Olympus. She considers herself ,as well, Macedonian. Why should i deprive her from that feeling,because a few Slavophones want otherwise?

That's the biggest issue here.


Edited by Spartakus - 16-Apr-2008 at 08:06
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 11:50
Originally posted by Flipper

At the section below it explains the basics
Which is only about the name. That it constitutes basis for an exclusive claim over Macedonia remains only a speculation. They have an article in their constitution (added at Greece's request) they do not have any territorial claims. Plus FYROM does not forbid the Greeks Macedonians to call themselves Macedonians, so no human rights are violated in this regard. So far, Greece's claims remain to be proven. It remains the question of textbooks, which honestly won't be solved by a name change, but by re-education. Yet I don't see a word about that. So it doesn't look to me like Greece cares for anything else but the name.
 
As I said, they signed it, they didn't follow it though.
I don't understand this. Isn't their name in bilateral negotiations? Yes it is, so they follow what they "officially accepted". They are not forced to agree with Greece's proposals, though.
 
You have missed the point there. Our aim is not to call them as Skopjans which is riddiculus, but not to monopolize the name "Macedonia/Macedonians/Macedonian" from their part. We want it to be clear that Macedonia is an area concerning various people and not one nation in present times.
I don't think I miss the point since I replied repeatedly that FYROM does not deny Greeks to call themselves Macedonians if they want to, but vice-versa, Greece denies FYROM-ers this option.
 
Yes, I do believe it. Almost 3 million people inhabit the region of MaKedonia and half of them are Makedones. The rest are bound to that area too. The political cost is extreme as you might understand by the numbers. Add also that most modern Greek immigrants living outside Greece are from the region as well. In a few words, if Nea Dimokratia or any other party would let this go they would simply vanish from the political scene forever.
Well, I was in Greece two times last year (in Greek Macedonia and in Crete) and sensed no such tensions (but true, I was merely a tourist, though a less formal one).
But let's say I'm wrong and that 1.5 million people (or more) are some "nationalistic beasts" waiting to be unleashed and tear Greece apart if the "wrong" political actions will be taken. Then, I'm sorry to say, the unstability factor in region is not FYROM (with its handful of extremists burning flags) but Greece. Greek Macedonia should be in this case militarized by peacekeeping forces to make sure the outburst of violence are contained (after all US recognized FYROM as Republic of Macedonia). But like I said, I really do not believe that.
 
What about the MaKedonia and Makedonja terms both untranslated and the sealing of the term "Macedonia" from both sides Chilbudios?
Well, you can suggest that, but terms tend to be translated and adapted. First informally, and after a while also formally (they'll simply catch up with an existing trend) will be both called "Macedonia". Needless to say in Cyrillic, in Arabic or whatever script, the differences put out in Latin script may get anulled.


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Apr-2008 at 11:51
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 11:56
Flipper, looks like it was not withdrawn it was never used as a valute and even never printed.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 11:57
Originally posted by Spartakus

Ok. But what they want to do is monopolize that identity. Why should i accept that they should be called solely Macedonians?
Still do not understand based on what you suggest that they want to monopolize it? 
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 15:57
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Spartakus

Ok. But what they want to do is monopolize that identity. Why should i accept that they should be called solely Macedonians?
Still do not understand based on what you suggest that they want to monopolize it? 



When they go around saying how Macedonians hated Greeks and how they are descended from them and print maps of a united Macedonia, talking about liberations and naimg airports Alexander the Great and plazas as Pella yeap, they are pretty much doing it
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 17:52
Originally posted by Vorian


When they go around saying how Macedonians hated Greeks and how they are descended from them and print maps of a united Macedonia, talking about liberations and naimg airports Alexander the Great and plazas as Pella yeap, they are pretty much doing it
 
I do not see any logic in your words. This shitty nationalistic staf is said by mad people all over the world, how is it connected with Maks official position? I can easely pick you up many greek talks around showing that Greeks will mind my granny to call herself Macedonian. I do not think it is official position of Greece in'it?
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 22:12
Originally posted by Chilbudios


I don't think I miss the point since I replied repeatedly that FYROM does not deny Greeks to call themselves Macedonians if they want to, but vice-versa, Greece denies FYROM-ers this option.


There is a problem here. You see , SlavoMacedonians consider to be the sole descedants of Alexander the Great and of Ancient Macedonians, while at the same time they say that they were not Ancient Greeks. In other words, what they  consider as a Macedonian, is a non-Greek Slavophone.Their definition of Macedonian and Macedonia is different.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 23:36
Originally posted by Spartakus

There is a problem here. You see , SlavoMacedonians consider to be the sole descedants of Alexander the Great and of Ancient Macedonians, while at the same time they say that they were not Ancient Greeks. In other words, what they  consider as a Macedonian, is a non-Greek Slavophone.Their definition of Macedonian and Macedonia is different.
That's perhaps a part of some protochronist FYROM propaganda. Greek protochronist propaganda comes in reply (that only Greeks are the true ancestors of Ancient Macedonians and only they should be called like that). So, the way you complain, both sides claim the name and the identity in this mythological battle.
The real problem starts when one side imposes the other what to be. And FYROM-ers did not impose Greeks not be Macedonians, there's no official request from them. Greeks can call themselves Macedonians anytime they please to. On the other hand there were many official complaints from Greece topped by a veto to FYROM's admission in NATO.
 
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 12:06
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Plus FYROM does not forbid the Greeks Macedonians to call themselves Macedonians, so no human rights are violated in this regard. So far, Greece's claims remain to be proven.


Officially they do not deny it. But think about it. When someone monopolizes the name "macedonian" as an ethnic term, it practically erases the term from the others using it as well. In the ears of a common citizen of the world (not a scholar community) what will Macedonian refer to? The inhabitants of the greater area or the citizens of FYROM?


It remains the question of textbooks, which honestly won't be solved by a name change, but by re-education. Yet I don't see a word about that. So it doesn't look to me like Greece cares for anything else but the name.


From the MFA page: The best example of this is to be seen in the content of school textbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
 
It is definetely solved by re-education i can't dissagree with that. However, this will not be done now and i don't really know when it is going to be done. As far as the education, the hate and the unofficial propaganda remains, it isn't safe to let the name pass. It can be heavily missused and take advantage of peoples confusion.

If the wider relations between the countries (official & unofficial) were good, then i don't think this problem would have emerged. If those generations now grow with these standards, who will take over the VMRO in the future and what will he/she cause?

Also note a recent action that caused Greeces reactions. They renamed the Skopje Airport as Alexander the Great. However, Alexander the great is the name of the airport in Kavala and according to international law, you can't have double naming of an airport. Therefore Their airport remains as "Skopje Airport" internationally. However, this is nothing new and my question is what is the reason to do this when it won't be recognised?


Originally posted by Chilbudios

I don't understand this. Isn't their name in bilateral negotiations? Yes it is, so they follow what they "officially accepted". They are not forced to agree with Greece's proposals, though.


First, it is not Greeces proposals but Mr Nimitz. Second, they have accepted FYROM but stopped using it obviously.
 
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios


But let's say I'm wrong and that 1.5 million people (or more) are some "nationalistic beasts" waiting to be unleashed and tear Greece apart if the "wrong" political actions will be taken. Then, I'm sorry to say, the unstability factor in region is not FYROM (with its handful of extremists burning flags) but Greece. Greek Macedonia should be in this case militarized by peacekeeping forces to make sure the outburst of violence are contained (after all US recognized FYROM as Republic of Macedonia). But like I said, I really do not believe that.


You don't understand how people feel in Greece at all, therefore this discussion will never end up somewhere. It doesn't matter though. What matters is that 99% of the citizens feel very bad about this issue and will get very angry if it doesn't reach an acceptable solution, even if the solution has to be a compromize for peoples feelings. Call them nationalists, stupid or whatever. They do not want to give up that name unconditionally and that's a reality. Any goverment elected by the Greek citizens has to protect their interrest. If not there will be an uncoverable political cost.

 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Well, you can suggest that, but terms tend to be translated and adapted. First informally, and after a while also formally (they'll simply catch up with an existing trend) will be both called "Macedonia". Needless to say in Cyrillic, in Arabic or whatever script, the differences put out in Latin script may get anulled.


That's why Greece asks for good garanties and conditions. I didn't mean the terms would be in Greek resp. Cyrillic but translitterated in Latin as well. That would be then Makedonija not Macedonia and Makedonski not Macedonian. Those are the words they use in their everyday life so what is the difference for them internally? None.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 12:27
Originally posted by Chilbudios

That's perhaps a part of some protochronist FYROM propaganda. 


Of some or of many?
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios


Greek protochronist propaganda comes in reply (that only Greeks are the true ancestors of Ancient Macedonians and only they should be called like that).


At the moment speaking, 2008 that is, Greeks do not want any alteration of historical facts. I don't think you would see such a reaction otherwise. Besides, do you see any Greek complaining about the Pakistanis who claim to be descendands of Alexanders soldiers? Ofcourse not. So lets take to consideration the factors that create such a stance.


Originally posted by Chilbudios


The real problem starts when one side imposes the other what to be. And FYROM-ers did not impose Greeks not be Macedonians, there's no official request from them.


As I analyzed previously, if they get the name they don't need to deny anything. They practically get an absolute advantage over the determination. Macedonians become the inhabitants of FYROM, the rest become just a shadow.

Also the problem started way before, when 1 group of people was already using that name and another group adopted it as well. Furthermore the second joined the side fighting the first. What do i try to say by that? That the adoption of the name from the second, was not done in times of peace but had many backgrounds affecting the first. It became a basis for a very bad start. Other participants of this old story, have showed good manners and have without any further issues with the first part an area as well called Macedonia.




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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 15:51
Originally posted by Flipper

Officially they do not deny it. But think about it. When someone monopolizes the name "macedonian" as an ethnic term, it practically erases the term from the others using it as well. In the ears of a common citizen of the world (not a scholar community) what will Macedonian refer to? The inhabitants of the greater area or the citizens of FYROM?
Where is the monopol? If Greece will accept the name of Republic of Macedonia, both northern Greeks and RM's Macedonians will be known as ... Macedonians. Actually FYROM-ers are already known as Macedonians in a large part of the world, even if Greece likes it or not.
 
It is definetely solved by re-education i can't dissagree with that. However, this will not be done now and i don't really know when it is going to be done. As far as the education, the hate and the unofficial propaganda remains, it isn't safe to let the name pass. It can be heavily missused and take advantage of peoples confusion.
Hate and unofficial propaganda exists on the both sides. I don't understand why isn't safe to let the name pass (let's not start again with the confusion scare, because I'll start again with pairs of names which co-exist just fine).
So, we're left with the education. Why - for instance - doesn't Greece join FYROM (and perhaps also Bulgaria) in a common effort in writing a scholarly well-researched history multi-volume? With archaeology diggings in these countries, with researching the archives of these countries, etc.? Or, students exchange and scholarships. Or, shared TV channels about the history and the culture of the region. Trying to cooperate with FYROM on understanding the past and the culture instead fighting it for such an absurd claim on history and culture.
 
Also note a recent action that caused Greeces reactions. They renamed the Skopje Airport as Alexander the Great. However, Alexander the great is the name of the airport in Kavala and according to international law, you can't have double naming of an airport. Therefore Their airport remains as "Skopje Airport" internationally. However, this is nothing new and my question is what is the reason to do this when it won't be recognised?
I don't know what international law do you have in mind. But the name of the airport is now Skopje "Alexander the Great" Airport, so it's no confusion, everyone knows it's not the one from Kavala ( http://skp.airports.com.mk/default.aspx?ItemID=345 ). The international codes for the two AtG airports are:
Kavala Airport - IATA: KVA, ICAO: LGKV
Skopje Airport - IATA: SKP, ICAO: LWSK
(you may notice that no acronym is composed from AtG, but from the name of the city). I'm sure even in the eventuality the name of the city would be the same they'd figure someway to put out a unique acronym for each airport.
 
First, it is not Greeces proposals but Mr Nimitz. Second, they have accepted FYROM but stopped using it obviously.
Well, the last proposal of Nimitz was refused by Greece, not by FYROM. But also Greece proposed several names for FYROM which they refused. FYROM was a temporary name chosen for UN.
 
You don't understand how people feel in Greece at all, therefore this discussion will never end up somewhere. It doesn't matter though. What matters is that 99% of the citizens feel very bad about this issue and will get very angry if it doesn't reach an acceptable solution, even if the solution has to be a compromize for peoples feelings. Call them nationalists, stupid or whatever. They do not want to give up that name unconditionally and that's a reality. Any goverment elected by the Greek citizens has to protect their interrest. If not there will be an uncoverable political cost.
Any government must compromise between the moods of its citizens and the international situation. If most of the Greeks want to wage war against Turkey or FYROM (for whatever reason) otherwise they'll "get angry", do you believe a government should follow this "national trend" and start a war?
The Greeks have no rights on this name, they did not earn it, nor inherit it, nor registered in a "reserved national names" list, nothing.
 
That's why Greece asks for good garanties and conditions. I didn't mean the terms would be in Greek resp. Cyrillic but translitterated in Latin as well. That would be then Makedonija not Macedonia and Makedonski not Macedonian. Those are the words they use in their everyday life so what is the difference for them internally? None.
But you see, not only that in other scripts are different rules, in different languages the same script is read differently. In Romanian, for instance, "j" is not a semi-vowel "i", but a consonant (and so is in French, too). No Romanian will spontaneously write or pronounce "Makedonija". And even if for a while the Greece MFA will succeed to persuade the Romanian officialities to use this name, eventually they will revert to "Macedonia" because most of Romanians will use it as we now have it and commonly use it (both for FYROM and northern Greek region). The rules of language (phonetics, orthography) is created by people and common usage, it cannot be imposed by some diplomatic agreement. How will Greece monitor all the countries from the globe? And when one country will break this agreement, they'll do what? Request FYROM or the "offending" country out of NATO (assuming it will be admitted by then)?
 
Of some or of many?
Isn't it about the same thing? Without any reliable estimation on the views and actions of FYROM-ers, these words mean almost nothing else but our uncertainty.
 
At the moment speaking, 2008 that is, Greeks do not want any alteration of historical facts. I don't think you would see such a reaction otherwise. Besides, do you see any Greek complaining about the Pakistanis who claim to be descendands of Alexanders soldiers? Ofcourse not. So lets take to consideration the factors that create such a stance.
Really? Claiming that Macedonia is Greek for 3000, 3500 or 4000 years is not an alteration of historical facts? Claiming that FYROM-ers usurp Greek heritage is not an alteration of historical facts? And Pakistan was not renamed to Macedonia. Let's see that first, and then we'll see Greece's reaction to it. I wonder what will happen if Turkey will ask to change its name to Macedonia. LOL
 
As I analyzed previously, if they get the name they don't need to deny anything. They practically get an absolute advantage over the determination. Macedonians become the inhabitants of FYROM, the rest become just a shadow.
What shadow? Greek Macedonians are not having a country of their own, they are Greeks. It's Greece's job to promote its regional particularities. If it doesn't, it's not FYROM's or anyone else's fault.
 
Also the problem started way before, when 1 group of people was already using that name and another group adopted it as well. Furthermore the second joined the side fighting the first. What do i try to say by that? That the adoption of the name from the second, was not done in times of peace but had many backgrounds affecting the first. It became a basis for a very bad start. Other participants of this old story, have showed good manners and have without any further issues with the first part an area as well called Macedonia.
This story happened several times on the globe. But only Greece succeeded to make such a noise about it.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 17-Apr-2008 at 16:02
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