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Why does Turkey & Pakistan have great friendship?

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why does Turkey & Pakistan have great friendship?
    Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 00:36
Yeah thats true. More muslim Indians fought for Britain than Turkey. However those that went to fight for Turkey went because of the Ummah.
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 17:38
What's the ratio of Indians who fought for Ottomans to the ones who fought against it?
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 18:07
First we must make the distinction;
 
 - Indians fighting for the Brittish, "had to", they were obliged to as subjects of the Brittish Empire. The point I'm getting at, it wasn't the Indians who invaded the Ottomans, there were Black African soldiers and even Mauries among the Brittish troops aswell.
 
 - Indians who fought and sent aid to the Ottomans did so out of free will, nobody forced them into doing so, therefore it can be percieved as an act of compassion and friendship.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 18:28
Originally posted by Bulldog

First we must make the distinction;
 
 - Indians fighting for the Brittish, "had to", they were obliged to as subjects of the Brittish Empire.
I don't think that's true. I don't believe there was conscription in India at the time (there still isn't). The 'Indians' who fought for the British were volunteers. Granted once they volunteered they then had no choice about where to go, but they didn't have to join in the first place.
 
The point I'm getting at, it wasn't the Indians who invaded the Ottomans, there were Black African soldiers and even Mauries among the Brittish troops aswell.
Is that Maoris? Otherwise agreed.
 
 - Indians who fought and sent aid to the Ottomans did so out of free will, nobody forced them into doing so, therefore it can be percieved as an act of compassion and friendship.
True enough. It might however be partly due to thinking a British defeat would help India gain independence. Just a suggestion.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 18:31
^
Actually the Indian response to the WWI was one of intense loyalist and enthusiasm.The British response was one of repression barely seen before, which more than anything put the "Raj" on its death watch.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 10:51
Originally posted by Mughaal

 
However what I dont support is dimwits that come to my face and tell me Islam means peace when Muslims invented the suicide bomb. 
 


Muslims did not invent the suicide bomb, it was the Japanese kamikaze ,during WWII, who ,actually, were the first suicide bombers in massive attacks.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 11:06
Originally posted by Mughaal

If you look at it in retrospect, most of Islamic History (besides African & South East Asian) was the hegemony of different Turks laced deep in Persian Culture. The greats of the Muslim World all had elements of Turkish rulers and Persian Culture.



That's more than debatable. Are we talking about the elite, or about the mass of the people?

It is true , though, the Turks were heavily influenced by Arabs and Persians/Iranians. Those two are, for example, the greatest linguistic loan-givers in Turkish. Do not forget, that until 1923-4, the official script was the Arabic, which was replaced by the Latin one, as part of the nationalization process, initiated by Kemal Atatrk.
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  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 14:40
[
Originally posted by Mughaal

 
However what I dont support is dimwits that come to my face and tell me Islam means peace when Muslims invented the suicide bomb. 
 
 
You know nothing of Islam. Most muslims (in Samsun, Turkey, at least) consider Al Qaeda a heretical organisation. You see, in Islam one of the sins that cannt be forgiven by God is the act of suicide. Committing suicide is frowned upon by the vast majority of muslims, so please, try to be a little more intelligent when you make broad generalisations like this one.
 
Of approximately 1 billion muslims, 10 000 are Al Qaeda members - thats a one to one million ratio. Keep that in mind next time you try to stereotype muslims Wink.
 
 
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  Quote Aussiedude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 17:06
Pakistan "seeks to conquer India one day"? Are you even remotley sane? Pakistans ambitions are limited to holding itself together and taking Kashmir.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 01:00
Originally posted by kurt

Originally posted by Paul

1... Surely it's lack of freedoms.
2... Being a US puppet
3... The ability to delude yourself in this post it's other reasons than the above two.
 
 
 
 
Well then, according to this brilliantly postulated theory surely the Phillipines and Spain (under Franco) would have had a great relationship in the cold war? Or am i just deluding myself? And seeing how "US puppets" stick together, maybe Pakistan and Israel would be a little more cosy with each other?
 
Or maybe, you're just another europhile who needs to stop judging the world by western social stigmas.
 
Good point!
 
Really, simplifying like this is the last thing to be used on such a complex matter.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 05:24
Originally posted by Aussiedude

Pakistan "seeks to conquer India one day"? Are you even remotley sane? Pakistans ambitions are limited to holding itself together and taking Kashmir.

Given a choice between conquering north india, and a stable and prosperous country. I'm sure more Pakis would choose the former
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  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 06:05
Originally posted by Spartakus

Originally posted by Mughaal

If you look at it in retrospect, most of Islamic History (besides African & South East Asian) was the hegemony of different Turks laced deep in Persian Culture. The greats of the Muslim World all had elements of Turkish rulers and Persian Culture.



That's more than debatable. Are we talking about the elite, or about the mass of the people?

It is true , though, the Turks were heavily influenced by Arabs and Persians/Iranians. Those two are, for example, the greatest linguistic loan-givers in Turkish. Do not forget, that until 1923-4, the official script was the Arabic, which was replaced by the Latin one, as part of the nationalization process, initiated by Kemal Atatrk.


Just because the script was Arabic doesn't mean the language was. The Ottoman aristocracy spoke a dialect of Turkish (mixed with a lot of Greek, Farsi, Arabic, and Slavic words) totally out of sink with the majority of typical Anatolian and Balkan Turks, who spoke what was known as "rough Turkish" (in reality a purer version). At the time many people including the Sultan were also writing Turkish in the Greek script in addition to Arabic, and a sizable portion of the population writing in Cyrillic scripts. Ataturk made the dialect of the people, the one they used to call "rough Turkish" and now known as "Istanbul Turkish", the official language of the new Republic.
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  Quote Aussiedude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 14:33
I, frankly, disagree. North India would no longer be stable and prosperous if the Pakistanis conquered it, and would give Pakistan a Hindu majority. We are no longer in the age of the Mughals, were Hindus would tolerate such a thing, or such an annexation wouold actually benefit a nationWink... the US attempt to set up a puppet Iraq is a stron indicator of this, if the US can't manage this, how can the Pakistanis manage to conquer India?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 17:52
Why would Pakistan want any part of N India, except as a bargaining chip post war? Secondly, that place is not worth getting nuked for.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 20:04
Originally posted by kafkas



Just because the script was Arabic doesn't mean the language was.


I never said that. What i actually said was that Arabic and Farsi/Iranian influenced heavily Turkish and are it's  biggest linguistic loan-givers.


"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 10:39
Originally posted by AussieDude

I, frankly, disagree.

Your disagreeing about the ambitions of the Pakistani people based upon what knowledge?
North India would no longer be stable and prosperous if the Pakistanis conquered it

Nothing is stable or prosperous just after being conquered.
and would give Pakistan a Hindu majority.

Irrelevent. That would just make democracy less attractive if they could vote for BJPesque parties.
were Hindus would tolerate such a thing, or such an annexation wouold actually benefit a nation... the US attempt to set up a puppet Iraq is a stron indicator of this, if the US can't manage this, how can the Pakistanis manage to conquer India?

Niether the Indian or Pakistani armies are as incompetant as the American. But nevertheless, you never asked about practicalities, you only challenged what Pakistanis 'seek'.
If Pakistan had unlimited power, we would be pushing deep into Bihar. If India had unlimited power, they'd be pushing into Kabul. God however does not grant anyone unlimited power, and now if either country were to do anything more than fiddle with the border nukes would be flying.
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  Quote Aussiedude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 08:45

Practicalities and desire are inherently linked.... in any case, if any state had unlimited power, it would conquer EVERYTHING. I don't see what makes North India paticulalry special for the average Pakistani, who would much rather peace and stability, am I right? And, AFAIK, the political elite serves themselves and their economic interests, which would NOT be served by conquering North India. Certainly, they would be far more content with a fragmented or crippled India incapable of threatening them....

 

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 23:56
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Pakistani & Indian muslim loyalties to Turkey predate the Turkish republic.

I think there are a couple of historical reasons;
1) Turks founded the two most powerful muslim dynasties in the subcontinent; and are the primary islamic influence, being responsible for the spread of islam on the subcontinent
2) As the Caliph was a Turk, and the Caliph held the loyalties of subcontinent muslims during the British rule, those same loyalties were extended to the Ottoman state, and by inheritance the Republic of Turkey
3) All Pakistani history books I've read portray the Turks as the good guys; there is a certain amount of pro-turkish indoctrination.
4) The distance between the two countries means politics seldom gets in the way.
 
I don't know... I am not sure if these reasons are enough to explain strong ties with Turkey and Pakistan... if there's any.
 
Question about 3), doesn't it make sense that Pakistan won't have any negative view on Turks because they are not close, whether in good or bad? It's like saying that the Koreans generally see Holland as good guys... they aren't really related or close enough to point out any negative comments.... which only justified your 4th point.
 
 
     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 23:59
Originally posted by Sparten

Hmm,
Why do Pakistan and China have a friendship? There is nothing in common there. The reasons our ties with Turkey are strong is that both countrys have many convergent interests. For instance in arms tech both want to be free of western dependance, so when the US applied sanctions on Turkey due to the Kurdish issue (and a coup) we sent them cluster bombs. LOts of Turks have been trained in mountain warfare by us, one of the reasons of the latest incursion in Kurdistan has been a division sized one.
 
True. Plus, both Pakistan and China aren't happy with the economical growth in India. Remeber Russel Peters' comment about Indian-Chinese relationship...
 
"Indians and Chinese cannot do business together because Indians cannot live without a bargain and Chinese will never offer you a bargain." (Not an exact quote... but the idea's there...)
     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 00:00
Originally posted by kafkas

Originally posted by Paul

1... Surely it's lack of freedoms.
2... Being a US puppet
3... The ability to delude yourself in this post it's other reasons than the above two.
 
 
 


Totally wrong and ignorant remarks Thumbs%20Down
 
It may not be relevant facts, but it's true that Turkey and Pakistan are US stooges...
     
   
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