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Hypocrisy of Freedom of Speech
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hypocrisy of Freedom of Speech
    Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 05:19

Flag burning has happened and will happened because we allow it. Whether we like it or not. Yes that is very true. Nevertheless, it is a part of freedom of speech isn't it, the cartoons were covered under freedom of speech yes, insensitive for all they were they were still under that clause just like Santa and Jesus killing each other on South Park...



Right, and no one should face death threats because of it.



Yes, and I haven't seen anyone mention it in this thread either.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 05:23

And why should it matter, if they want to have a double standard, thats their problem.


Because Person A living in Suburbia, USA did nothing to Person B and C  several thousand miles across the ocean, etc...

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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 05:58
Originally posted by es_bih


I disagree... A national flag and a turban bomb on a world religion's prophet is not exactly the same thing.

The flag represents the nation, not a religion, nor a transnational movement or body of believers. It repersents a conglomerate of citizens. An American flag represents that same muslim that gets pissed off at that Danish cartoon, as much as the local bible study leader, or the atheist on the next block, etc... Now that muslim can also be pissed of that flag burning, too... and all of the three respective examples may also find it abhorring, but a part of freedom of speech just like the cartoon. They may also think that an insinuating cartoon isn't exactly the greatest example of freedom of speech either. And this to them definetly doesn't excuse the barbaric burnings of buildings and death threats either.
Flags and religious symbols mean different things to different people, depending on whats important to them. Both don't effect me, but a christain will get offended by a Jesus mockery and a 'patriot' will be offended by nation mocking, as a racist gets offended when he doesn't see or hear his own kind.  But, how one reacts to such 'offense'  is where we can also judge tolerance to differences.

Originally posted by es_bih


Flag burning has happened and will happened because we allow it. Whether we like it or not. Yes that is very true. Nevertheless, it is a part of freedom of speech isn't it, the cartoons were covered under freedom of speech yes, insensitive for all they were they were still under that clause just like Santa and Jesus killing each other on South Park...

Groups get riled up, mobs are easy to insinuate, which leads to a lot of property damage and rather uncivil behavior no matter the setting.

As far as their refusal to actually publish those with that "offend" clause... does not take much pondering to see that a double standard.

..all that time ago during that huge debate on the danish cartoons,  i found some very bigoted anti-semitic cartoons that are quite common in a Egyptian tabloid and other papers in the M/E. This is a religious group being vilified repeatably and on a scale much bigger than Denmark, yet the protests i see from the Muslim side is not about bigotry per se, really it was about anything that steps on their sensitivities.

Hypocrisy is something both sides can share.




Edited by Leonidas - 01-Mar-2008 at 06:00
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:04
I agree that both can share that habit.
My quarrel is not with the minority of the idiots who insinuate such reactions, nor with the idiots that use these insinuations in order to exact a barbaric reaction. Both those exist.

However, the choice to post that, and not the other is an oxymoron.

My example showed that both could mean a great amount to one person, and vice versa.
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:24
Originally posted by Mughaal

Originally posted by Parnell



Look: The intense over-reaction in the Muslim world to a few freaking cartoons has terrified this newspaper into doing anything remotely controversial ever again. If they released this, they would have extremists at home and abroad willing to kill them. There are nutjobs like that out there. Besides, freedom of speech is merely the freedom to be wrong, not to do wrong.


They decided not to post the Jesus cartoons in 2003 because of what it meant. They posted the Muhammad cartoons after 3 years, because of what it meant.

And it was no over reaction. And if done again, there will probable be more unrest and economic backlashes against Denmark.
 
It was not overreaction? It was not overreaction?!?
 
In my several years on this forum, I have never been as disgusted as I was when I read this. People died, Mughaal; people died! And all over something as silly as a cartoon. I suppose the reaction to the Roman Pope's quotation of a Byzantine emperor was also "no overreaction" -- a reaction that involved further reprisals against Christians, the burning of several of our Orthodox churches, the death of a nun, and many, many threats of further violence. Was this, too, "no overreaction"? What, may I ask, would be an overreaction?
 
I find the Danish cartoons offensive, not as a Muslim, but as a Christian who believes that offending people to no purpose serves no purpose. But don't you dare sit there and casually dismiss the murders, the threats, the riots, and all of the other nonsense that went on in the Muslim World, in light of those cartoons, as "no overreaction". You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself.
 
-Akolouthos
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:40

If Europe was under the belief that these immigrants that dont share any cultural affinity with Greco-Roman culture will just put up with such harrasment, they are wrong.

Austria arrests a prominent Holocaust denier, because Holocaust denial stirs up bad feelings. Maybe they need to think about what they are doing when they print and reprint idiot cartoons. Not everyone shares the same lack of regard and disdain for their religion.
 
Maybe Europe, Canada and America should be more careful of who they let in immigration as well.


Edited by Mughaal - 01-Mar-2008 at 07:02
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:57
Okay Mughaal, enough with the Euro-bashing. And I mean it.
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:10
Always the same old story, if someone feels insultaded( i'm sorry to say this are actually people with specious religios motivations, no matter islamic or what else), he/she complains to cut the freedom of thinking and speaking in one way but claim this right for him/herself on the other side.
 
To be honest, i'm sick of this behaviour.
 
I myself for example will have some problems if a nazi or a fascist claims the freedom of speech but if i read or hear his crap, i'm certain this is the best way to disqualify themselves.
 
Aplomb and calmness are needed, but the belief and the speeches of some religious leader are bluring obviously many brains.
 
This behaviour is indeed  nonrestricted to islamic countries but i do have the feeling that is used to detract from major social and other problems.
 
To have a concept of the enemy is much easier and cheaper than to change the true problems of a country.
 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:10
Originally posted by Northman

Just a few pointers...
 
- I have learned a number of things through the years here on AE, and one of them keeps amazing me. No matter how much it is discussed, only a few, in fact maybe only one Muslim here actually knows what the concept of free speech and expression involves - and that is indeed very sad.
 
- After a break from AE, I came back when the discussion in the +60 pages thread about the Danish cartoons had calmed down. It was obvious that NOONE (Muslim or not) in that thread actually knew what happened and why it happened, and apparently that hasn't changed. 
 
Before we glorify everything related to muslims and push blame on everyone else, we should read a little about whats going on outside our own little bubble.
The way radical muslims (and other troublemakers with muslim background) take advantage of spreading fear in order to force western authorities to bend to their demands is appaling. I have been a strong defender of the rights of our muslims immigrants, but they make it very hard for me and others like me, to keep that up.
Just a few things from the last month:
Threats of murder, +100 incidents of arsen, riots etc. And maybe the worst part is - well integrated Muslims don't dare to speak up against it - they are too scared.
 
I can't blame other Danes and Scandinavians who want the troublemakers out, the ones who think that only Islam is to be obeyed, not the laws of the country. And even if they are convicted of a crime (murder threat), they instantly cry for their human rights to avoid being expelled. Then suddenly, the western laws and values are fine. Who said hypocrits?
 
@Sparten
If I had been the Danish ambassador in Pakistan during that time, I would also have condemed the cartoons.....   to stay alive.
 
About burning flags:
The US flag and the Danish flag are equally sacred to Americans and Danes as a picture of Muhammad is to Muslims. But we don't start murdering Muslims or the Mullahs who ignited the protests because of this. Those protests which mostly was a mean to lessen local frustration. A little simplifyed:
"As a Muslim and citizen here, you cannot protest about the rotten conditions here, but now there is a cause you can use for an excuse to let some steam out  - go out and burn some flags and buildings"
 
I could go on along these lines for the rest of the page, and I know this post is very "unlike" me - but the hypocrisy has to stop - also Muslim hypocrisy.
 
~ Northman
 
 
Firstly Northman with all due respect the ambassador was in no danger, the life of his family and his embassy staffers and the property of his embassy was and is the reponsibility of the GOP. Are you saying that if he had not condemed the cartoons he would have been killed by the GOP or that GOP would not have protected him? I live 5 mins from the Embassy of Denmark and I have never seen even at the height of the controversy any attempt by anyone to threaten the Danes. The man clearly did not have the courage of his convictions.
 
 
Secondly I can counteract your little generalisation about AE Muslim forumers with one of my own, i.e europeans living in highly hetrogenous bubble are genarally immune from the consequences of their actions. I live in a highly versatile country where the language and culture changes every 10 miles, and while freedom of speech is all well and good, peace and good relations with other communities are far more important, and if for harmony freedom of speech muct be sacrifised then so be it. This dose not mean that I support the actions of the protestors at all, but and this is the important part I am rather amused that Jutlands Post and the Government of Denmark did  forsee what the consequences would be and still acted as they did. You might find the reactions of other silly, I know I often do in many senarios, but the fact of their reactions is far more important that the sillyness of them
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:19
Originally posted by Ako

In my several years on this forum, I have never been as disgusted as I was when I read this. People died, Mughaal; people died! And all over something as silly as a cartoon. I suppose the reaction to the Roman Pope's quotation of a Byzantine emperor was also "no overreaction" -- a reaction that involved further reprisals against Christians, the burning of several of our Orthodox churches, the death of a nun, and many, many threats of further violence. Was this, too, "no overreaction"? What, may I ask, would be an overreaction?
 
I find the Danish cartoons offensive, not as a Muslim, but as a Christian who believes that offending people to no purpose serves no purpose. But don't you dare sit there and casually dismiss the murders, the threats, the riots, and all of the other nonsense that went on in the Muslim World, in light of those cartoons, as "no overreaction". You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself.

While I agree with you completely Ako, I want to point out that in the places that the deaths occured; deaths in protests, particularly political protests, are a very common occurance.
I don't know how many people actually died, but considering how many people are killed on a day-to-day basis for no real reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time I would be surprised if they were numerically significant. If you deliberately went out to protest then you would know the risks.

While this may sound harsh to the western reader, it is unfortunately true, and if we are to consider an event 'major' or 'minor' we must consider it in the day to day situation of that place. People die, in Denmark one death is a incident, in Pakistan one death isn't worth reporting.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 01-Mar-2008 at 07:24
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:19
After rereading my comment, Akoulothos, I understand the misconception of my comment.
 
The people who killed, vandalized and assaulted were dumb to begin with. They come from the lower, disfranchised parts of society. But I support an economic backlash. I would definitely support if Denmark went without oil by the arab countries for months.
 
But I dont support killing and murdering randomly. Even the druggy director, Van Gough should have been given jail time like that British Holocaust Denier dude who got 3 years.
 
Also, people are dying in Iraq. 13 year old Iraqi girls are embracing a life of Whoredom to feed their 7 year old brothers. Keep your panties on. Death is part of life.
Perhaps the greatest lesson learned are humans are biased.


Edited by Mughaal - 01-Mar-2008 at 07:30
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Sparten, my friend, many ignorance and dissacords on both sides accompany the relations of the western and islamic world.
The flame of hate will burn as long as there are no real attemps to understand eachother,
to learn from eachother and to respect different opinions. A 

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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:33
Originally posted by Mughaal

  Death is part of life.
But the life as well. As long as we focus in supporting the life on earth we must not accept the death.....
 

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Posts: 818 		  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 12:41
Edited by me due to my mix up on the publishing dates. 
 
Mughaal,
 
This isn't a big deal! I've seen and heard a whole lot worse (Much, much more worse!!), regarding Jesus and artistic expression and interpretations here in the west. That's putting it mildly too!


Edited by Panther - 01-Mar-2008 at 13:21
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 12:42
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


to suppress other human rights.

like?

Safety

But it are not the Danes who are violating that right.

I myself for example will have some problems if a nazi or a fascist claims the freedom of speech but if i read or hear his crap, i'm certain this is the best way to disqualify themselves.

One of the wisest things said so far. The marketplace of ideas: if you allow eveything to say what they want, people will eventually sort out the truth themselves.


Edited by Mixcoatl - 01-Mar-2008 at 12:46
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Again I'm left in total awe by the apparent ignorance by some members here, - or could it be, that these members are keeping up their stance against better knowledge?
The denial of facts and constant attempts to sway blame, the lack of ability to evaluate a case in its full content with all factors involved is stunningly transparent but maybe not surprising.

I'm not sure why I bother to enlighten the apparent bewildered - but here goes...
 
A few pointers...
Mughaal started this thread about some Jesus cartoons that 3 years previous to the Muhammed cartoons was rejected to be published by Jyllandsposten - claming that it is double standards.
I think Mughaal, that you brought this up just to pick a fight - but thats ok - and in that category, on your behalf, I'm sure glad you edited the word "retarded Danes" out of your post.  

First off
- the creator of the Jesus cartoons in 2003 sent the drawings to the newspaper by his own force, wanting JP to publish them just because he thought they were funny. The editor in office at that time, didn't find them funny and there was no reason to publish.
- the Mohammed cartoons were created due to a request and published (by a new editor at JP) because there was a reason to do so. Most people, espicially Muslims are chosing to be ignorant of this fact, but let me enlighten you once again:
The Muhammed cartoons were published as a protest against the increasing fear of Muslim terrorism, already instilled in the European countries - ie. due to the Van Gogh incident among others.
So please consider this - in condoning the outcry's and reactions in the Muslim world and stating that we should be aware of "the consequences" - you side (and act) with the radicals and terrorists who are trying to create fear and limit the freedom of expression. 

Comparing these two totally unrelated incidents and relate them to what is double standards or not, can only serve to demonstrate ignorance of facts or judgement against better knowledge. 
 
Please notice, I havent defended any cartoons - but once again, explained the reason why they were published.

I'm running out of time - I'll be back!

~ Northman
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Posts: 1409 		  Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 13:14
Originally posted by Mughaal

Originally posted by Parnell



Look: The intense over-reaction in the Muslim world to a few freaking cartoons has terrified this newspaper into doing anything remotely controversial ever again. If they released this, they would have extremists at home and abroad willing to kill them. There are nutjobs like that out there. Besides, freedom of speech is merely the freedom to be wrong, not to do wrong.


They decided not to post the Jesus cartoons in 2003 because of what it meant. They posted the Muhammad cartoons after 3 years, because of what it meant.

And it was no over reaction. And if done again, there will probable be more unrest and economic backlashes against Denmark.


No, they posted it not thinking that an entire part of the world would rise up in furious anger. To someone like me, or any other thinking person in the west, we simply cannot get our heads around how angry you got, why you got so angry, and most importantly how the hell you possibly justified wanting to 'behead cartoonists'. Do these people speak in your name? Where were the 'not in my name' protests in the Islamic world we all wanted to see. Why do you let these uneducated, immature, sadistic idiots speak on your behalf?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:03

I take it sarcasm is in short supply in the REpublic of Ireland?
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:05
Originally posted by es-bih

Yes, and I haven't seen anyone mention it in this thread either.
Part of the reason we are discussing Freedom of Speech is because one segment of the population likes to use it but threatens others if they do.
Because Person A living in Suburbia, USA did nothing to Person B and C  several thousand miles across the ocean, etc...
Again, so what? It's obvious  they are trying to start something, why give someone gratification by bringing out the worst.
It shouldn't matter enough where destroying property and talking about harming others is the reaction given because one small group of people used the rights given to them to insult.

 
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Frankly, with my own cultural perspective, I see the reaction to the cartoons as a severe sign of weakness. And of course when we feel most vulnerable our reactions tend to be amplified to such degrees.
 
Perhaps, this represents a vector from which to focus an enormous amount of built-up frustration.... it's way easier to blame others than it is to look at ourselves.
 
 
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