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The Battle of Britain

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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Britain
    Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 12:24
Originally posted by Temujin


it was not the fault of the Luftwaffe but of their leaders (Gring) and the way they were used in the BoB, which they were not designed for.
I didn't said it was Luftwaffe's fault. I said it showed its weakenesess like: inabuility to attack distant targets, low payload capacity, short range of fighters, overstimation of bombing effects, etc.
If you think Goring is the one who shifted from bombing the RAF to bombing London then his weakness is the fact that he didn't stand against Hitler. Goring was in fact for the continuation of grinding the 11 th FG.
also, the RN is no problem, Stukas sunk pretty much any enemy battleship in harbour, look at Russia & Greece for example. if you have air superiority, ships aren't a problem.
The range of the Ju87 limits its ability to strike long distance blows. The whole Home Fleet would not have been easy to chew by the Luftwaffe. The He111 and Ju88(these were also too few) were not able at the time to inflict to much damage to a military surface force. The Do17 was useless against such targets. And the Stukas would also have been needed to support the ground forces. And it was the B that was available not the D. Torpedo bombers are the worst enemy of a battleship. Not many available by then. All in all the Luftwaffe, all by itself, had not enough strength to interdict the Channel for the RN. Think of what the outcome would have been if two CL plus ten to fifteen DD would have get in firing range with the German transports.
Air superiority reduces the threat posed by ships, does not eliminate it. Remember, GB was defendig herself. I admit that the losses would have been horrible though.
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 13:34
Originally posted by Sparten

Read them again, Alanbrook wanted reinforcements sent in September, when it beca,e clear that war was imminient not in DEcember when it was clear that war would be lost.

 
What was wanted and what could be done considering everything else going on was quite another.
 
The decisions were joint ones based on choosing from a number of difficulties which had been prioritised.
 
Originally Singapore was believed to be capable of standing up to any attack. The garrison numbers were already large and deemed sufficient for defence.
 
They were misused in Singapore
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 13:54
On Singapore surely the basic mistake was the one seen as mistaken at the time: the place was thought only attackable from the sea. It simply wasn't fortified against a land attack out of Malaya. While Churchill may have been as blind to the possibility as anyone else, he wasn't responsible for that.
 
Doesn't matter how many troops you have there if, figuratively speaking, they're all looking the wrong way.
 
PS. It would also be possible to write the error down as due to Britain's obsession with naval defence. The assumption was that the enemy would have to get past the navy to attack. Again that certainly wasn't only Churchill's misreading.
 
And incidentally those troops in Persia weren't doing nothing. They were keeping the Russians out.


Edited by gcle2003 - 15-Feb-2008 at 13:58
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 19:12
Originally posted by gcle2003

I can't see how you can say 'it was not the fault of the Luftwaffe but of their leaders.' Their leaders were also part of the Luftwaffe. That would be like saying 'it was not the fault of the army but of the general staff'.
I don't think anyone blames the individual pilots.



Originally posted by Cezar


I didn't said it was Luftwaffe's fault. I said it showed its weakenesess like: inabuility to attack distant targets, low payload capacity, short range of fighters, overstimation of bombing effects, etc.
If you think Goring is the one who shifted from bombing the RAF to bombing London then his weakness is the fact that he didn't stand against Hitler. Goring was in fact for the continuation of grinding the 11 th FG.




the Luftwaffe was designed to support the ground forces and that was their single purpose, it could not fight in a way that the BoB demanded from them. Gring ignored this and told Adolf he could win, so he launched this useless campaign in the first place.



Originally posted by gcle2003

Then how come the RAF spent so much of the war failing to sink Scharnhorst and Gneisenau?




Originally posted by Cezar

The range of the Ju87 limits its ability to strike long distance blows. The whole Home Fleet would not have been easy to chew by the Luftwaffe. The He111 and Ju88(these were also too few) were not able at the time to inflict to much damage to a military surface force. The Do17 was useless against such targets. And the Stukas would also have been needed to support the ground forces. And it was the B that was available not the D. Torpedo bombers are the worst enemy of a battleship. Not many available by then. All in all the Luftwaffe, all by itself, had not enough strength to interdict the Channel for the RN. Think of what the outcome would have been if two CL plus ten to fifteen DD would have get in firing range with the German transports.
Air superiority reduces the threat posed by ships, does not eliminate it. Remember, GB was defendig herself. I admit that the losses would have been horrible though.




Ju 87s range is limited but sufficient to cover the channel including harbours. all those Soviet and Greek battleships sunk where in their harbours. the German Battlecruisers where either well protected in their harbours, like Tirpitz in Norway, or on the high seas and difficult to catch or spot in the first place.


Edited by Temujin - 15-Feb-2008 at 19:34
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 19:39
Originally posted by gcle2003

On Singapore surely the basic mistake was the one seen as mistaken at the time: the place was thought only attackable from the sea. It simply wasn't fortified against a land attack out of Malaya. While Churchill may have been as blind to the possibility as anyone else, he wasn't responsible for that.
 
Doesn't matter how many troops you have there if, figuratively speaking, they're all looking the wrong way.
 
PS. It would also be possible to write the error down as due to Britain's obsession with naval defence. The assumption was that the enemy would have to get past the navy to attack. Again that certainly wasn't only Churchill's misreading.
 
And incidentally those troops in Persia weren't doing nothing. They were keeping the Russians out.
That was pre-war that is the 1920;s and 1930's. By Sepetember 1941 both India Command and GHQ London agreed that main axis of attack would come from Malaya and furthermore that the warplan should have most troops moving into Siam to preempt that (incidentally this was probably the only time in history that India Command and LOndon agreed with one another), and the General Staff reccomended moving a corps from Persia which old Winny flat out refused, until the goose was well and truly cooked (and those troops were moved from Africa).
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 17:01
 

Originally posted by Justinian

Depends on whether you are discussing simply the war between Britain and Germany or the war as a whole.  Just between Britain and Germany it was important, as a whole, not much.  With Barbarossa and the declaration against the US, BoB became minimal by comparison.  If Britain had been successfully invaded and conquered, the germans are still going to lose I think against the might of the US and USSR.... 

 

True, the Germans would still have been in 'over their heads' against the US and the Soviet Union.  However, there are a number of important issues here that could make a big difference.  If Britain is assumed to be 'defeated', does that simply mean that the British Isles have been 'neutralized' or 'occupied', but Britain and the Commonwealth are still in the war?  Or does one assume that Britain is out of the war.  Without Britain (and Commonwealth) actually being at war, does Hitler even declare war on the US - after all the 'assistance' the US was giving Britain and the resulting 'undeclared' war in the Atlantic were major considerations in Hitler's decision to declare war on the US.  Furthermore, although the US clearly had massive potential, there was a signficant lag before the US was able to apply that potential to the battlefield in the ETO.  Although the US was 'openly' at war with Germany in Dec. 1941, and in spite of the 'official' adoption of the 'Europe First' strategy, it wasn't until Nov. 1942 that American troops joined in the land fighting in a significant way, with the Torch landings.  Even then, the British played a major role in supporting / facilitating the Americans in the landings - with their assets in the Med in particular.  Without the British, the Americans would have been much further behind the historical schedule.  Frankly it is difficult to see how they would effectively intervened in Europe with Britain completely out of the war.  With a large delay in the US projecting force into Europe, Germany would have been 'one-on-one' with the Soviets for a much longer period of time.  The 'front' against the US and Britain played critical roles at 2 'turning points' in the war in the east.  First, during the Stalingrad period the Germans were using critical air assets to transport and supply the forces necessary to set up a front in Tunisia.  Then the offensive at Kursk was called off due to the landings in Italy.  Without having to fight the British and later American forces, the Germans would have been able to attack the Soviets a bit early, with a bit more forces and would have been able to concentrate on the eastern front for a bit longer.  The absence of the historical bombing offensive against Germany would have freed the Luftwaffe to provide greater air support against the Soviets.  Still, it is difficult to know for certain, even given all that, whether or not Germany could have defeat the Soviet Union.  Even a 'victory' in the terms defined by Hitler - i.e. the A-A line, would have left a 'hostile' rump state east of the Urals.  However, clearly such a scenario would have been sufficiently different from the historical to justify the conclusion that Britain remaining in the war, with the British Isles still 'free' had a huge impact on the course of the war, and determined the outcome to a significant degree. 


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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 14:34
With Britain out of the way, why would Germany ever need to declare war against the US whilst she was facing Russia ?
 
Would the US actually declare war agianst Germany ? There wasn't a lot of enthusiasm
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 17:00
Originally posted by Peteratwar

With Britain out of the way, why would Germany ever need to declare war against the US whilst she was facing Russia ?
 
Exactly.  Again it comes down to exactly what you mean by 'Britain out of the way'.  If Britain is presumed to be continuing the war from 'abroad', as per Churchill's 'fight them on the beaches.... never surrender' speech, then perhaps continuing American aid / assistance would 'provoke' Hitler to declare war.  But with Britain completely out of the war, that's hard to see happening.
 
Originally posted by Peteratwar

Would the US actually declare war agianst Germany ? There wasn't a lot of enthusiasm
 
Again, probably not with Britain completely out of it.  Certainly not before Japan was finished off, assuming Pearl Harbor still took place historically.  In that scenario you have the Soviet Union facing an 'undistracted' Germany 'alone' for a much longer period of time. 


Edited by deadkenny - 18-Feb-2008 at 17:01
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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 23:34
Read the "Hitler Options" by a collective group of historians I can't recall, but the very first story is about Operation Sea Lion beginning with the neutralization of the RAF. Most historians are very conflcited on whether or not Germany would have succeeded in a full-scale invasion, in fact Raeder thought it was doomed from inception. However, the book paints a damned convincing scenario right down to fleeing citizens and livestock blocking crucial roads soldiers required for advancement. Personally, I think Hitler was too conflicted of an individual to achieve anything with Britain. In private he often spoke of his disdain for the British Empire and his desire to dismember it, but on other occasions he spoke of creating a potent alliance with it. His indecisiveness can be seen at Dunkirk where German tanks sat idly by while the British fled, but later Hitler became enraged that this show of goodwill did not urge British surrender. A smarter idea would been to have committed more divisions in Africa and cut off the British there. What I'm trying to say is that with Hitler at the helm, the British would never be defeated.

Edited by ChickenShoes - 03-Mar-2008 at 23:35
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 01:25
Hitler was Britain's secret weapon.  (MI6 agentWink)
 
I was refering to the British Islands being conquered, not the british government or dominions.
 
As far as US involvement without Britain, with Hitler at the helm, I have not the slightest of ideas as to how that would play out.
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 03:27

On a sidenote: how was Germany to invade Britain when they had zero landing craft and a leader who loved the British Empire and would gain little from its total collapse?

Remember how difficult planning Overlord was even with a few years, infinite resources, total air and sea supremacy and even THEN they almost postponed it for a few more months due to weather? Germany could've eventually conquered the British Isles but the question is... when? 1941? 1942?
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 16:35

There was a narrow window of opportunity wherein the Germans might have had some chance of success albeit very slim.

That period was between the fall of France and september. They would still have had to defeat utterly the RAF (not possible) and be able to contend with the RN.

After that weather and growing British strength would make it impossible

 

 

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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 15:13
Originally posted by Temujin

the Luftwaffe was designed to support the ground forces and that was their single purpose, it could not fight in a way that the BoB demanded from them. Gring ignored this and told Adolf he could win, so he launched this useless campaign in the first place.
All sides overestimated the effects of aerial bombardment during the war. The Germans repeated the mistake in Malta when they thought that only bombing the island would put it out of action. Goring's intention was to create local air superiority. the plan was to grind the fighter force of the RAF so that an invasion could be launched with minor interference of the british air arm. Hitler turned the battle into a bombing campaign against civil targets (distant too). That's what the Luftwaffe wasn't suited for.
Also, it wasn't suited for naval attacks. The number of pilots with reasonable training in attacking ships was minimal.
Ju 87s range is limited but sufficient to cover the channel including harbours. all those Soviet and Greek battleships sunk where in their harbours. the German Battlecruisers where either well protected in their harbours, like Tirpitz in Norway, or on the high seas and difficult to catch or spot in the first place.
What harbours are you talking about? The Stukas could not reach Scapa, or Loch Ewe, or other military harbours. Do you really think that the RN would have brought in the big guns and tucked them in a harbour so that the Germans would bomb them at will?
Anyway, the Germans, after Norway, were practically lacking any significant surface units. The RN, on the other hand, had lots of destroyers and sufficient cruisers. Those ships were enough to turn the german transports into scrap. They could attack from northeast and west at dusk and keep on pounding the transports till dawn. And they were far harder to be destroyed by air attacks.
So, my guess is that they could have secured one or more beachheads but they would not have been able to supply the landing forces with enough materials. Therefore, no reasonable chances for the invasion to succeed.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 18:58
Originally posted by Cezar

All sides overestimated the effects of aerial bombardment during the war. The Germans repeated the mistake in Malta when they thought that only bombing the island would put it out of action.
 
Good point.  They just saw the effects in Spain with totaly unopposed raids against a civilian population with no advance preperations and is in some cases, of mixed morale. (Nationalist sympathizers and nueteral Spaniards).   
 
The logic went that if "X tons of bombs acheived Y in Spain, then X(10) tons of bombs will devastate any enemy".  60 years later, the US theorists make the same mistake with "Shock and Awe".  The logic went that "Shock and Awe tactics achieved "X "in Gulf War I. Therefore, more of the same will easily collapse Serbia, The Taliban and The Iraqi Insurgents".
 
Both formulas broke down Ouch.  Disciplined, dedicated and prepared enemies to not get "Shocked and Awed" easily.  They can also  absorb a whole lot of bombing strikes.


Edited by Cryptic - 05-Mar-2008 at 18:59
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 20:06
i have seen dozens of pics of ships taken out by stukas, are they all propaganda? like i said, they could cover the channel harbours. i don't know if the Home Fleet can operate from Scapa Flow against German ships in the channel, its quite a distance they have to cover which allows for u-boats for example to spot them and inform the luftwaffe.
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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 12:32
Originally posted by Temujin

i have seen dozens of pics of ships taken out by stukas, are they all propaganda? like i said, they could cover the channel harbours. i don't know if the Home Fleet can operate from Scapa Flow against German ships in the channel, its quite a distance they have to cover which allows for u-boats for example to spot them and inform the luftwaffe.
In order for the Luftwaffe to interdict the Channel several conditions would have been necessary:
1. Available aircraft - that means aircraft that would not participate as ground support for the landing forces.
2. Proper inteligence - The Condors and the subs would have been the main sources.
3. Rapid response - if the transports get to the bottom, sinking the attacking ships is no consolation.
 
You seem to agree that at the time the Ju87 was the best airplane available for the Germans for anti-ship attacks. But the Stuka was also their ground support aircraft. Also, different types of bombs are required for the ground attack and anti-ship strikes.
I think two RN task forces, one in the North Sea and West of the Channel, mainly comprised of destroyers and cruisers, fast ships, would have been a major problem for the Germans. The speed would have allowed those to reach the transport area and to stage an attack at dusk. If the fleet of transports gets mauled then the Germans would not be able to supply their troops on the british soil. If you also throw the big guns and flattops into the mix you do realize that the chances for the Germans to protect their transports from the attacks of the RN are quite slim. If the RAF can still pose a threat (especially to the Stukas) then the invasion is impossible.
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