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Illirac View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kosovo
    Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:04
Originally posted by Theodore Felix


  "we will have revenge", or "we wont forget" or "we will be back to deal with you"


Which nation do not think like that? Croats for example are supporting Kosovo not because they want their independence but in spite of Serbia, since most of Croats(at least the guys I know), hate the Serbs without a reason and that reason is good enough for them.


Originally posted by Theodore Felix


  " Its not uncommon for me to hear the notion that "Serbs have more right to live in Kosovo than Albanians do".


In every country you have a large mob that thinks like that Wink



Edited by Illirac - 18-Feb-2008 at 19:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:14
Which modern European nation thinks like that? Towards which minority? This is a Balkan mentality or a mentality from some other backwards region.

Apparently such large mobs are there to greatly influence elections. These mobs have great sway in Balkan regions still and can fluctuate in number quite easily at the hands of the proper manipulator (like Milosevic).

Again, the damage happened, and the cost was great. Nobody has the right to say "well sorry, it happened but lets try to forget". Especially as few Serbs actually seem to feel sorry about what happened. But it is rather easy for a Croatian, who already received independence. But how did Croatians feel initially when the world was at first against them and for the survival of Yugoslavia? How easy would it be for those who suffered the war to be told "you should cede from Yugoslavia"...

What to take a look at the extremist that exists still?

BELGRADE -- Rako-Prizrenska Eparchy Bishop Artemije has called on Serbia to act without hesitation.

Serbia has to announce that it will purchase state-of-the-art weapons systems from Russia and other allies, he said, adding that she could also send an invitation to Russia to send volunteers who would help the Serbian people in the just battle.


http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=02&dd=13&nav_id=47681

Strangely reminiscent of Urban II.


Edited by Theodore Felix - 18-Feb-2008 at 19:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:17

I like to see the Europeans like the British (Blair), Spanish (Solana), Turks when they will face  the same situation like a Scottish or Catalonian or Kurdish declarations of independences how they will respond!!!Confused

Dont call them terrorists!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:27
It's very realistic. And there is Russian 14th army still stationed in Transnistria. They beg Russia to officially recognize their "state" all the time. Everything will depend on the position of Moscow. As soon as they give the green light to this, it will happen.
Transnistria is not an ethnical separation, is a situation inherited due to Soviet politics in the area for several decades. As long as international organizations report severe problems I don't think Russia's word would be enough for a recognition.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:36
Originally posted by Theodore Felix



They had homes prior to Yugoslavia. Actually, many of the homes were more furnished than they were under the Yugo period, until the Serbian advanced destroyed a heavy portion of the kulla's and old homes (which was repeated in the 90's campaign). 


Please inform yourself,
In Jugoslavia a law was made just for Kosovo :" Fond za razvoj nerazvijenih republika i pokraina" and every firm in Jugoslavia was obsolete by this law, which took their money(and citizen money as wall) to build schools, roads and so on...so yes, whole of Jugoslavia built up what today it's Kosovo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:39
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
It's very realistic. And there is Russian 14th army still stationed in Transnistria. They beg Russia to officially recognize their "state" all the time. Everything will depend on the position of Moscow. As soon as they give the green light to this, it will happen.


as Chilbudios said, its not a proper state, they just happen to live separate from the natives. they are still in the middle of an already small country. and why do they have an army there? Confused its completely isolated.


Originally posted by Temujin

  
North Ossetia is undoubtly the most loyal to Moscow government North Caucasus' republic. They definetely don't want to be "released." In South Ossetia there was a bloody war between Georgians and Ossetians. Nothing like that has been possible in North Ossetia.


yeah but how can they say give independance to South ossetia while they still hold on themselves to north ossetia? thats quite a double standard here
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:43
The Albanians of FYROM want their independence as well. Why aren't we already bombing the hell of them? Why did NATO send troops to stop the Albanian fighters there?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:44
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

Which modern European nation thinks like that? Towards which minority? This is a Balkan mentality or a mentality from some other backwards region.


Yes, no country nor nation in the world ever understood the Balkans, you never know what was happening here and you will never know...

Originally posted by Theodore Felix


Apparently such large mobs are there to greatly influence elections. These mobs have great sway in Balkan regions still and can fluctuate in number quite easily at the hands of the proper manipulator (like Milosevic).


Hmmm...Hitler and I would say even George W.Bush is not enough of an example?

Originally posted by Theodore Felix


Again, the damage happened, and the cost was great. Nobody has the right to say "well sorry, it happened but lets try to forget".


So I have to hate the Austrians, Italians, Germans even France?
Originally posted by Theodore Felix


 Especially as few Serbs actually seem to feel sorry about what happened.


Does USA feel sorry for Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq...I don't think so


Originally posted by Theodore Felix


 But it is rather easy for a Croatian, who already received independence.

I am not a Croatian, so do not put them in discussion Wink

Originally posted by Theodore Felix


 But how did Croatians feel initially when the world was at first against them and for the survival of Yugoslavia? How easy would it be for those who suffered the war to be told "you should cede from Yugoslavia"...


Well, the Croatian where the first who wanted the unification with the Serbs- Ilirski pokret, Hrvatski narodni preporod....

What to take a look at the extremist that exists still?

Originally posted by Theodore Felix


BELGRADE -- Rako-Prizrenska Eparchy Bishop Artemije has called on Serbia to act without hesitation.

Serbia has to announce that it will purchase state-of-the-art weapons systems from Russia and other allies, he said, adding that she could also send an invitation to Russia to send volunteers who would help the Serbian people in the just battle.


http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=02&dd=13&nav_id=47681

Strangely reminiscent of Urban II.


hmm...the difference is that they are not hiding...hmmm, i recall many nazi to be in the USA...hmm...oh, wait! Have I to condemn whole of America?


Edited by Illirac - 18-Feb-2008 at 20:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:47
Originally posted by akritas

I like to see the Europeans like the British (Blair), Spanish (Solana), Turks when they will face  the same situation like a Scottish or Catalonian or Kurdish declarations of independences how they will respond!!!Confused

Dont call them terrorists!!


Don't worry they will never let them have their independence
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 19:52
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

This is a Balkan mentality or a mentality from some other backwards region.


this is rather offensive (I forgot to state Big%20smile), since you do not understand someone else that does not make them inferior...please, do not condemn what you don't understand, it's too frequent in here(Balkans)


Edited by Illirac - 18-Feb-2008 at 19:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 20:24
And since you do not know what was happening here I will tell you, from the 1970 the Albanians in Kosovo started expelling the Serbs by force...at least 80 000 Serbs where kicked off...so do not think that the Serbs are the only bad guys in here - this was probably a reaction for the decades of slavisation in Kosovo...but that is no excuse for expelling innocent people

and Kosovo is the very heart of the Serbian culture, and the good and nice Albanians destroyed most of the monuments in there


Edited by Illirac - 18-Feb-2008 at 20:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 20:36
destroyed most of the monuments in there

That's worth noticing.
I remember an incident that happened in Urosevac, some years ago, involving the greek troops there.
An albanian mob gathered there wanting to burn the medievel orthodox church there. The greek squad tried to stop them, but the albanian mob set their light vehicle on fire, with a molotov bomb. The squad then withdrew into the church, without firing (as their orders were). A greek soldier was wounded by a grenade that was thrown into the church by the albanians outside. A greek M113, with cover by american helicopters, approached and the squad left the church inside the M113.
After the departure of the greek squad, the albanian mob set the 13th century serbian orthodox church to fire, destroying it...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 20:39
and Kosovo is the very heart of the Serbian culture, and the good and nice Albanians destroyed most of the monuments in there


Albanians did not destroy most of the monuments there. A good number of churches were damaged in the years following the war, but over 200 mosques were destroyed during the Serbian campaign while nearly 1000 kullas(tradional Albanian homes) were burned down, bombed, irreparably damaged. So it doesnt make sense to simply point finger. Those churches stood quite well until the 1999 war. In fact, there are a number of Albs in the region with the surnames Voivoda. Men who descended from Muslim lords that protected the churches and were granted such titles by bishops.

Again, this is a one sided argument. On top of that, this great interest in church preservation only shows that many people(I wont name who) very clearly show more interest in churches and see them as more valuable than anything else...

this was probably a reaction for the decades of slavisation in Kosovo...


Whatever counter-attacks(I myself dispute the 80,000 number and the nature of many of these "expulsion" since a good deal of Serbs left due to economic rather than ethnic reasons. Albanians, by contrast, were less able to get work and make it outside of Kosovo than Kosovo Serbs. In fact there were many attempts to try and keep Serbs in the region as far back as kingdom period when land grants were awarded to colonizing Serbs, who in turn would leave not too long after since they could not make much) they express a growing frustration and anger at the priod colonization and earlier expulsion of Novi Pazar Albs. Not to mention the following expulsion in Kosovo after the Balkan Wars(British Red Cross workers in Albania reported about 10,000 deaths during this period due to the nature of the expulsion and the conditions of those expelled). On top of that there was the destruction of numbers of villages...

Yes, this goes on in a circle. But considering the damage the Serbs did, I hardly find it fair to put the blame on Albs and tell them "you dont have the right to cede because of such and such" when Serb attacks were multifold worse...


Edited by Theodore Felix - 18-Feb-2008 at 20:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 20:51
 
 
Kosovo Is Recognized by U.S., France and Britain
 
BRUSSELS The United States formally joined France and Britain in recognizing the independence of Kosovo on Monday, a day after the breakaway province declared itself independent of Serbia.

In a statement, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States has today formally recognized Kosovo as a sovereign and independent state. We congratulate the people of Kosovo on this historic occasion.

Earlier, France and Britain had led European nations in recognizing Kosovo. Germany was also reported to have recognized Kosovo. The Associated Press reported that Serbia recalled its ambassador from the United States in protest.

In a television interview, President Bush called the people of Kosovo independent, although he stopped short of formal recognition. Mr. Bush is to make a formal, televised statement from Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, where he is on a tour of African states, early on Tuesday morning local time, or 11:15 p.m. Eastern time on Monday, the White House said.

The Kosovars are now independent, Mr. Bush said in a live interview broadcast on NBC television from Arusha, Tanzania, according to Reuters. Its something Ive advocated along with my government.

Ms. Rice said Mr. Bush had agreed to Kosovos request to establish diplomatic relations, and she tried to reassure Serbia about the welfare of Kosovos Serbian minority. Ms. Rice spoke with Serbian President Boris Tadic by phone on Sunday.

The United States takes this opportunity to reaffirm our friendship with Serbia, an ally during two world wars, Ms. Rice said in the statement.

European foreign ministers meeting in Brussels appeared to reach a minimum common position acknowledging that Kosovo had declared independence, and allowing those nations that wanted formally to recognize it to do so.

But some, with their own separatist movements, remain loath to validate Kosovos unilateral move.

France and Britain said they would recognize Kosovo. Bernard Kouchner, Frances foreign minister, said a letter recognizing Kosovo as an independent state would be sent from President Nicolas Sarkozy to Pristina on Monday night. Mr. Kouchner said the declaration was a victory for common sense, and pointed to what he hoped would be future reconciliation between Serbia and Kosovo.

I dont know at what date, in which year, but Kosovo and Serbia will be together in the European Union, he said.

However, the foreign minister of Spain, Miguel Angel Moratinos, told reporters that the declaration did not respect international law and Spain would not recognize Kosovo.

The government of Spain will not recognize the unilateral act proclaimed yesterday by the assembly of Kosovo, he said, according to Reuters.

Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Greece have also been reluctant to recognize Kosovo.

The province declared independence from Serbia on Sunday, sending tens of thousands of ethnic Albanians streaming through the streets to celebrate what they hoped was the end of a long and bloody struggle for national self-determination.

Russia, which opposes Kosovos independence, demanded an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council on Sunday to proclaim the declaration null and void, but the meeting produced no resolution.

The Security Council agreed to a request by Russia and Serbia to hold an open meeting on Monday that was to be addressed by Mr. Tadic.

R. Nicholas Burns, the under secretary of state for political affairs, said in a conference call with reporters Monday that he did not expect any change in diplomatic relations with Serbia.

Mr. Burns also said that he did not foresee trouble with Russia. I do not expect any kind of crisis with Russia over this, he said. I expect Russia to be supportive of stability in this region.

In her statement, Ms. Rice said Kosovo s move should not be used as a precedent a possible warning to Russia against encouraging independence movements in Russia-backed enclaves in Georgia.

Kosovo cannot be seen as a precedent for any other situation in the world today, she said.

But in Moscow, the Russian upper and lower house of Parliament on Monday released a joint statement signaling an intention to recognize the separatist enclaves of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both in Georgia

Abkhazia and South Ossetia have announced their intention to seek recognition as independent states. Russia has already granted citizenship to most residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and had hinted that it might recognize the regions independence if Western countries recognized Kosovo.

The right of nations to self-determination cannot justify recognition of Kosovos independence along with the simultaneous refusal to discuss similar acts by other self-proclaimed states, which have obtained de facto independence exclusively by themselves, the Russian parliament statement read.
 

Georgia disputes the claim that the regions have obtained independence by themselves. The areas broke from Georgia after brief wars in the 1990s, and have survived the ensuring years with extensive Russian support.

Eduard Kokoity, the Ossetian president, said Monday that the two breakaway regions would submit a request for recognition to Russias Parliament by the end of the month, according to the Interfax news service.

Mr. Burns said that, in backing Kosovos move toward independence, the United States government was operating under the assumption that not acting and not deciding the final status of Kosovo would be much more likely to lead to violence than action.

Kosovo, a desperately poor, predominantly Muslim landlocked territory of two million, has been a United Nations protectorate since 1999, policed by 16,000 NATO troops. Its unemployment rate is about 60 percent and average monthly wage is $250.

We will be working with the government to try to help it politically as well as economically, said Mr. Burns, pointing out that the United States had given $77 million in assistance to Kosovo in 2007 and would raise that amount to over $300 million in 2008.

Mr. Burns, who said he had consulted by phone with European counterparts after the meeting of European Union foreign ministers, said there would be a donor conference in Europe in the coming months to encourage additional aid, and hoped there could be debt relief for the worlds youngest country as well as strong regional trade.

Vojislav Kostunica, the prime minister of Serbia, which has regarded Kosovo as its heartland since medieval times, vowed that Serbia would never recognize the false state.

In an address on national television on Sunday, he said Kosovo was propped up unlawfully by the United States and called the declaration a humiliation for the European Union.

The Serbian government has ruled out using military force in response, but was expected to downgrade diplomatic ties with any government that recognized Kosovo.

Demonstrations were planned for Monday in Serbian enclaves across Kosovo. Serbs said they were under orders from Belgrade to ignore the independence declaration and remain in Kosovo to keep the northern part of the territory under de facto Serbian control, raising questions about Serbias long-term aims.

In her statement, Ms. Rice said: We invite Serbias leaders to work together with the United States and our partners to accomplish shared goals, such as the protection of the rights, security, culture and livelihood of the Serb community in Kosovo.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 20:55
Abkhazia and South Ossetia have announced their intention to seek recognition as independent states. Russia has already granted citizenship to most residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and had hinted that it might recognize the regions independence if Western countries recognized Kosovo.


Wouldnt that mean that Russia would have to recognize Kosovo in order to recognize its precedent?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 20:56
The United States takes this opportunity to reaffirm our friendship with Serbia, an ally during two world wars, Ms. Rice said in the statement.

ahahahahaha!Nuke
this opportunity is recognizing Kossovo?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 21:00
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

Abkhazia and South Ossetia have announced their intention to seek recognition as independent states. Russia has already granted citizenship to most residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and had hinted that it might recognize the regions independence if Western countries recognized Kosovo.


Wouldnt that mean that Russia would have to recognize Kosovo in order to recognize its precedent?
 
No. The recognition of Kosovo by the others gives Russia the right to recognize Abkhazia etc. though I don't think USA will recognize Abkhazia as well as Russia won't recognize Kosovo.
 
The simple outcome of this that is "pay no attention to international law and do what you want."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 21:01
Originally posted by xristar

The United States takes this opportunity to reaffirm our friendship with Serbia, an ally during two world wars, Ms. Rice said in the statement.

ahahahahaha!Nuke
this opportunity is recognizing Kossovo?
 
Exactly, such a "wise" statement. Thumbs%20Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 21:13
US is tricking world into the state of chaos!
Today Serbia, tomorrow:
 North Ireland in UK,  Kurds in Turkey , Greeks in southern Albania (Northern Epirus) , Muslims in Western Thrace Greece , Turks and Pomaks in Bulgaria ,  Serbians in Kosovo and Bosnia , Albanians in FyROMacedonia ,Basque in Spain as long as the "democrats" of the US decide about it , of course (as usually) against the international law
Make war and rule - old Roman technique, adopted by US.
They don't really care about Albanians, they actually want to throw the world ( specially Europe ) into the series of ethnic wars and with this way they will not have any competitor internationally (china i think would be the only obstacle to the way for the autocracy of the US ).
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 21:41
Originally posted by Theodore Felix


Whatever counter-attacks(I myself dispute the 80,000 number and the nature of many of these "expulsion" since a good deal of Serbs left due to economic rather than ethnic reasons. Albanians, by contrast,



wrong, mostly they were forced to, and it is, and it was the fault of the Albanians that that regions is so behind
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