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The influence of Chinese civilization in SE Asia

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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The influence of Chinese civilization in SE Asia
    Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 04:18
I couldn't fit the whole name I planned for this thread in the "subject." So, in this first post I have to say that I meant all SE countries except Vietnam. Chinese civilizational influence shaped the history of Vietnam, this is a well known fact. So, Vietnam should be outside of the discussion.
 
When I read books on South Asian history, a lot of authors mention that Indian influence on SE was predominant, yet there are some minor traces of Chinese influence as well. What happens further is that those Indian civilizational patterns are described in great detail within the context of the given SE country, let's say Burma or Thailand, but this is definitely not the case with those "Chinese elements."
 
Do they actually exist there? So far, I didn't find anything significant except some discussions about possible Chinese influence on SE music (again I don't mean Vietnam here but other countries).
 
So, guys could somebody give us new insights on the better understanding of "Chinese elements" in SE traditional civilizations and cultures?
 
Many thanks !


Edited by Sarmat12 - 09-Feb-2008 at 01:23
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 03:44
India pretty much spread its culture there. Today city names like Singapur, Surabaya, Putrajaya and those temples at Angkor Wat; etc lead to believe Indian Cultural Hegemony.
 
I noticed China kept to itself most of the time and only spread to Japan and Koreas. Vietnam too.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 04:35

Your observations are totally correct. But this is why I'm interested in discussing that minor Chinese influence there.

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 13:24
I hjave a 19th century book on Siam the author notes it is an Indian culture however gradually more and more Chinese culture is supplanting it.
 
The book contains a company list of virtually every business in Bangkok. Not one is Thai owned, they're virtually all Chinese immigrant and to a leserr extent European.
 
King Chulachomglao realised that everything about Siamese culture is anti-trade and business and Thais were totally unequipped to do it or even learn to do it. He had all these treaties forced on him by Britain and France forcing a trade economy on him. He realised while they were designed to mean Brtiain and France could sell stuff to the Thais. In priciple they worked both ways, though few countries ever sold to Britiain and France to balance the budget books. He was determined to do just that. So he used Chinese immigrants as the only people who could run businesses in his country capable of exporting. The idea Thais would learn the to trade from the Chinese and in future generations be able to trade themselves.
 
Over 100 years later it's still only partially true. Trade is still the antithesis of everything Thai and most Thais still can't trade. Most business is run by the Thai descendants of these Chinese immigrants. The main difference is being a merchant has had its status raised in the cast system from the 2nd bottom tier (bottom slave) to the 3rd tier along with the teachers, civil servants and the military. (2nd tier royal birth, 1st tier monk).
 
 


Edited by Paul - 06-Feb-2008 at 13:27
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 20:54

There are a few things which are either similar or in common.  Several regions utilized the "Chinese zodiac" system.  A lunar calendar as well.

Underneath the Buddhism and thus Hindu exterior the people in many regions are primarily animists and pray to such things as ghosts and spirits of their ancestors.  They give offerings to their ancestors each year, if possible.  Because it is believed that when you die you go hungry if your relatives do not give offerings.  There are also other things like respect for the elderly.  Deferrence for people older than oneself, and using more respectful terms when addressing older people.  Things like that which may be in common with stereotypical Chinese beliefs.
 
There are other things I'm missing I'm sure.  I've often wondered if it is Chinese who influenced Southeast Asia, or the other way around on certain subjects.  Or was it developed before either regions coalesced into distinct peoples?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 06:13
Originally posted by Paul

 
Over 100 years later it's still only partially true. Trade is still the antithesis of everything Thai and most Thais still can't trade. Most business is run by the Thai descendants of these Chinese immigrants. The main difference is being a merchant has had its status raised in the cast system from the 2nd bottom tier (bottom slave) to the 3rd tier along with the teachers, civil servants and the military. (2nd tier royal birth, 1st tier monk).
 
 
 
 
Interesting point. Thank you Paul.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 06:24
Originally posted by Ozone

There are a few things which are either similar or in common.  Several regions utilized the "Chinese zodiac" system.  A lunar calendar as well.

 
Yes. Very good point. I wonder if Thai animal year circle has Chinese origin or it's somehow connected to Theravada Buddhism?
 
 
Originally posted by Ozone

There are other things I'm missing I'm sure.  I've often wondered if it is Chinese who influenced Southeast Asia, or the other way around on certain subjects.  Or was it developed before either regions coalesced into distinct peoples?
 
What I noticed before is for example that many sources claim that Muay Thai has Chinese origins. The logic was very simple, since Thais originate from Nanzhao, and Nanzhao was in China, then they learned the basics of their Martial Art from Chinese.
 
Frankly speaking, I can hardly believe that. Muay Thai is very different from traditional Chinese MA. I tend to see it's origins in Indo-China itself.
 
The best Chinese kongfu practitioners were bitterly humiliated by Thai boxers in the 1960th. There were competions conducted where "invincible"  kongfu masters were easily knockdowned by the average Thai boxers.
 
The shock was so huge for Chinese that after those matches they developed their "own Muay Thai" which is called Sahshou dao.
 
It's claimed to be originated in Kongfu, but in fact it's just a Chinese version of Muay Thai.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 08-Feb-2008 at 06:27
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 14:54
One area noticieably different in SE Asian culture and Chinese is the role of women. Sandwiched between India and China one would expect a similar pretty low role. However women have a very high status in SE Asian culture, not just now but always.
 
Zhou Daguan wrote that both men and women had their chests exposed, walked barefooted and wore only a piece of cloth wrapping around their waists. He reported that the common women had no hair ornaments, though some wore golden rings or bracelets. Beautiful women were apparently sent into the court to serve the king or his royal family at his whim. Interestingly, he stated that all trades in were carried out by women. In the market place, there were no buildings, but rather the female vendors would sell their wares on large mats that were spread on the ground. The space in the market also apparently required a rent to be paid to the officials. He stated that the Khmer people didn't have tables or chairs in their homes, and not even what the Chinese considered to be bowls or buckets. They reportedly cooked their food in earthen pots used for boiling rice and for preparing soup. Their ladle sticks were made from coconut shells and soup was then served into a tiny bowl made from woven leaves, which were apparently waterproof. Wiki
 
Zhou Daguan also mentioned. All Chinese should immediately get a Khmere wife. As a man with a Khmere wife could do little each day letting her support him. This spills over to SE culture to today where most shops and businesses are run by women. The amount of female CEO's in SE Asia is as high as the West however has been so much longer. It's very much a culture of men are soldiers and government workers, women merchants and has been so for over a thousand years.


Edited by Paul - 08-Feb-2008 at 14:58
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 20:25
It is arguable whether Thai people are from Nanzhao or not.  Then we get into the argument of whether Nanzhao can be considered Chinese when it existed outside of the Chinese Empires and even acted as a rival power during some periods.  In my own opinion I've always thought that Muay Thai and all other related martial arts in Southeast Asia (because the same or similar style of martial art was and still is practiced throughout the region and not just in Thailand) was modelled after cockfighting.  The way the fighters engage one another is very reminiscent of a Southeast Asian style cockfighting contest.  The chicken of course supposedly originated in Southeast Asia, and even the modern Chinese term for chicken in some dialects is the exact same as what some Southeast Asians would call it.  But we have to keep in mind that prior to the late 19th-20th century the concept of enforcing a strict border between countries did not truly exist.  Most people came and went as they pleased and ideas often traveled around.
 
It's been said that prior to Chinese colonization and subjugation Vietnamese culture was more of a matriarchal one than a patriarchal one as evidenced by the later rebellions led by women such as the Trung Sisters.  The people wore loincloth to some of their neighbors.  Very different from the current stereotypes at any rate.
 
But regarding women being held in high esteem.  I'm not quite certain that a broad generalization can be made.  Many people still hold the view that women are not equipped to become leaders.
 
Would Khmere be Khmer?  Is Khmere how an English speaker generally pronounce the term?  From what Khmer people themselves tell me they pronounce it as "Khmai" in spite of how it's spelled.  I'm not certain if different dialects would pronounce it differently.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 20:57
Khmere is a Francisation not English.
 
As for Nanzhou
 
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 22:09
Originally posted by Ozone

 In my own opinion I've always thought that Muay Thai and all other related martial arts in Southeast Asia (because the same or similar style of martial art was and still is practiced throughout the region and not just in Thailand) was modelled after cockfighting. 
 
Yes, very similar MA is practised in all countries in Indochinese penninsula except Vietnam.
It is called Lethwei in Burma, Pradal Serey in Cambodia and Tomoi in Malaysia. Actually other Souteast Asians are kind of unhappy with Thais, since they "monopolized" this tradition in the international aspect; many know about Muay Thai but very few do about those MA in other SE Asian countires. Interestingly, Vietnam has it's own different MA tradition called Vietvo dao and is based on Chinese gongfu.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 08-Feb-2008 at 22:12
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 22:51
Originally posted by Ozone

 In my own opinion I've always thought that Muay Thai and all other related martial arts in Southeast Asia (because the same or similar style of martial art was and still is practiced throughout the region and not just in Thailand) was modelled after cockfighting. 
 
 
To look at Muay Thai as a martial art is a bit of a mistake. It's a sport based upon a martial art.
 
Thai martial arts are very different to Japanese, not sure about Chinese. Japanese martial arts can't be mixed. You can't mix Kendo with Kyudo with Karate, the stances are different. With Muay Thai you can, whether you use Muay Boran, Krabi, Krabong and so on they all use the same stances. They were not so much designed to be used together as are just components of the same fighting system. A complete package taught to warriors.
 
Muay Thai just derived from that as a sport, the only feasible part of the system that could continue.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 23:32
If boxing, wrestling and such things as Russian Sambo and French Savate can be called martial arts, then I do not see why Muay Thai does not deserve the term as well.
 
Nanzhao or Nanchao.  The thread does not clear up the issue of whether they should be considered Chinese or not.  Personally I would think that just like the Japanese and Koreans of the present day they would not like to be called Chinese when they were not Chinese no matter the similarities.  But anachronistically we can go back and label them as Chinese since some of their former territories are currently under Chinese control.  That would be a complex argument in itself.
 
However as some of you may already know the term Chao or Zhao is still in use by modern "Thai" languages.  Its meaning and usage is comparable to the English word "Lord".  The major river running through Bangkok, the "Chao Phraya" is an example of its current usage.  There are many competing theories about the origin of the "Thai" people and personally I subscribe to the idea that all of them are correct to a certain extant.  I do have one question, tho.  When speaking of Nanzhao why do we always refer to Thailand?  It's not as if they are the only or even the best representative of the "Tai" group of peoples.
 
The spelling Khmere brought up a conversation I had with an ethnic Khmer.  An American English speaker was being very adamant in telling him how to pronounce the word Khmer.  The English speaker believed very strongly that it is pronounced "Kh-mere", or more closely to "Come mere".  Of course the ethnic Khmer person had a good laugh about it while telling the story, but it shows that sometimes the actual way someone pronounces something is nothing like how it's written in English.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 00:32
Originally posted by Paul

 
To look at Muay Thai as a martial art is a bit of a mistake. It's a sport based upon a martial art.
 
 
Current use of the term Martial Art is already much broader than it used to be before. Just look at the Mixed Martial Arts championships. For example: Boxing, Free style wreslting and kick boxing are also called Martial Arts there. Muay Thai clearly fits in this category. Or for example there is also so-called Russian Combat Sambo, which, in fact doesn't have any limitations of what technique to use, it's also called a Martial art.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 09-Feb-2008 at 00:37
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 00:34
Chao in Thai means,
 
puncture in one tone, one spelling
prince in another tone, another spelling
flesh another tone another spelling
draw in another tone another spelling
 
and so on.
 
there are 5 tones, three letter 'Ch' and 4 'ao' vowels
 
that's sixty potential combinations, sixty potential words and most Thai words have many unrelated meanings.
 
In the Lao language closer to old Thai than modern Thai it's primary meaning is 'you'
 
The association of Zhao with Chao seems a little arbitary.
 
 
 
 
The conversation with the Khmer brings on Deja Vu of dozens of examples I've heard in Thai. However I have to blame the Thais themselves, their  transliterations are so misleading. There's a great road sign in Bangkok that reads 'Thewes'. The correct pronunciation is 'tear-wet'. And Thais wonder why tourists get it wrong.


Edited by Paul - 09-Feb-2008 at 00:43
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 00:34
Originally posted by Ozone

 
Nanzhao or Nanchao.  The thread does not clear up the issue of whether they should be considered Chinese or not.  Personally I would think that just like the Japanese and Koreans of the present day they would not like to be called Chinese when they were not Chinese no matter the similarities.  But anachronistically we can go back and label them as Chinese since some of their former territories are currently under Chinese control.  That would be a complex argument in itself. 
 
For sure the people of Nanzhao were not Chinese and they were never called Chinese in any sources. What we discussed in that thread is the relation of Nanzhao to Thai history and the degree of the influence of Chinese culture on Nanzhao.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 00:38
I don't think there is any doubt the Nanzhou weren't Thai. Just they conquered some of the Northern Thai tribes to the south of Nanzhou.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 02:21
What I noticed before is for example that many sources claim that Muay Thai has Chinese origins. The logic was very simple, since Thais originate from Nanzhao, and Nanzhao was in China, then they learned the basics of their Martial Art from Chinese.
I was addressing that statement.  I'm sorry if it was a missinterpretation.
 
I do not think Nanzhao was Thai either.  Nanzhao, like many other states of that time, was a multi-ethnic entity containing large numbers of different ethnicities with the "Tai" groups of peoples among them.  As it is modern Thais do not feel that sort of national bond that most people associate with being a part of an ecompassing ethnic group.  There are large differences within the different Tai groups even to this day, and thus I would not say that Nanzhao was "Thai" either.  Not to mention the term Thai as being associated with Thailand is not representative of the group.  Thailand was formed by and is dominated by the people of central Thailand who are somewhat culturally different from other groups.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 02:32
I agree and I think those central Tai amalgamted with the Mon in the area at sometime to form the basis of the modern Thai.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 06:08
The Mon cultures have had a large influence on many people in the region, but the central Thais seemed to have had a greater influence from the Khmers than other groups.  During the rise of the different Tai principalities the Khmer empire was still seen as being highly cultured.  Once central Thailand became powerful enough to overpower and subjugate the Khmer empire they thus began importing much more Khmer influence.
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