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Vojvodina Slavania/Hungary/Serbia |
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 Topic: Vojvodina Slavania/Hungary/SerbiaPosted: 02-Jan-2008 at 00:17 |
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Can someone suggest primary sources for information regarding the Vojvodina area of Modern Serbia. Through out the years the area has been governed by many different nations.I'm looking for information from the Frankish conquest until the end of Ottoman rule. Particularly about the geography and cities.
Thanks Edited by vibo - 02-Jan-2008 at 00:22 |
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beorna
General 
Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 925 |
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Posted: 02-Jan-2008 at 14:33 |
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As far as I know the Frankish conquest did not reach until Vojvodina. The "Pannonische Marken" were next to it, but they did not conquer the region. By the way the modern Vojvodina is built in 1920 from Batschka, Vojvodina, Banat and Syrmium. Syrmium's history was mostly connected with the areas south of Danube, the others were under contoll of the Avares till 895, the Hungarians till 1525, the Osmans till about 1718 and then again under hungarian till 1920. Syrmium was mostly under Byzantinian rule but as well under those of Bulgarians. The most time Syrmium was connected with Slawonia and Croatia. The population of the north-Danube-areas was mixed with Hungarians in the West and Walachians/Romanians in the eastern regions. In the 12th century there was a great immigration of Germans (e.g. Novi Sad-Neusatz) to the Batschka and the Banat. Serbians came to this regions in the early 17th century when the escaped of turkish influence and reign. They were allowed to settle in the so-called "Militärgrenze". The Habsburgians gave them a privileged status but Hungarians, Croatians e.g. didn't care about it often. So if you are looking for primary sources it would be difficult for you. I am sorry I didn't study modern history so that I cannot help you with it. But I am sure there is a lot about the military borders in Austrian archivs.
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Menumorut
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Joined: 02-Jun-2006 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 1423 |
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Posted: 02-Jan-2008 at 16:00 |
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Vojvodina is part of Banat, a region today shared between Romania and Serbia (the most important part and cities being in Romania).
The oldest medieval information is about a duke Glad in 10th century, vasal of Bulgars. You can find info on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat The two articles are writen by Serbs (the first) and Romanians (the second). |
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Tar Szerénd
Consul 
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 10:13 |
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There are a lot of reasons why the history of the Charpatian basin and mediavel hungarian history is moslty a white blothc in people's international history knowlidge. (or there is something, but just particulars, but with wrong dates, like germans in the Bánát, correct geographical and administrative names etc.) So I can understand these answers of You. Our politicals and historians were and are a lazy dirty lot, they usually dispute on things of little wight etc. So there were and there are f.e. not enough hungarian historical books published for the international public, and if there had been published some(in the 19-20th Cent.), they were led by the national/political purpose.
And of course there is the difficulty of our language, wich is one of the main dam for interested foreign historians.
These probleme is much more larger in case of the just pre1920 hungarian territories. Hungarians couldn't made there effective historical studies in the modern way, they mostly couldn't get to their old libraries and to the new excavations, wich have been made by romanian, serbian, cz-slovakian archaeologists (and it became just worse in the time of the big slavic brother), who were and are following their national ideas, too. We got these possibilities just since some years, but it seems this time was not enough to close the problems.
So tomorrow I'll post some basic infos about the old South Hungary for those who beleave facts and not in the hungarian Lord of the Rings (Gesta Hung.) tale and of the easily changeable wikipedia. Edited by Tar Szerénd - 03-Jan-2008 at 19:51 |
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Tar Szerénd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 04-Jan-2008 at 18:17 |
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Couldn't find ANY matching maps in the hungarian map until yet (an other shame) please be patient. Thanks: tar
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Tar Szerénd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 14:56 |
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Hi
has someone here the technic for make the size 2 MB photos (maps) smaller?
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Menumorut
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Joined: 02-Jun-2006 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 1423 |
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Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 05:29 |
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Is this the new trend among Hungarian historians, that Anonymus was a tale teller, kind of Grimm Brothers? So what will you do with his statue in Budapest?  Edited by Menumorut - 10-Jan-2008 at 05:31 |
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Chilbudios
Arch Duke 
Joined: 11-May-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1900 |
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Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 10:29 |
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Menumorut, most of the historical primary written sources are like tales, because in other ages people had different perceptions on accuracy, truth, telling, etc.. Even Herodotus, the father of history, though he begins his work with a solemn motivation for perpetuating the deeds of Greeks and barbarians he knows of for posterity, he finally submits to some accounts we today find them undoubtely fictional. Thus, when comparing some random sample of chronicles and some random sample of scholarship written in the last few decades, we'll find the former to be some tales.
Now, beyond that there's the intention of the author. Sometimes the work was intended to be fictional, sometimes it was intended to illustrate reality (as the author and his contemporaries understood such a thing). The thing about this anonymous mr. P. is that we have no direct evidence of his intentions so various historians were speculating from the content of his work or even from its title ("gesta"). The critics point out that this chronicle can't be too accurate for it misses most of the important persons of that time (however that's a bit of a anachronical straw man, important for the scholarship of 20-21st century, we must question what was important for the author and his purpose), though it is often ignored that some lesser rulers (like Achtum/Ohtum - confirmed by Vita Maior Sancti Gerardi - having a small center of power in today Banat) are mentioned. I for one, believe that this chronicle, like many others are as they are because also of the sources available to the author. Like in many other chronicles, some of the characters might be real (like the one just mentioned), some of them might be fictional, archetypal, to illustrate a conflict which otherwise would have had unknown protagonists.
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Menumorut
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Jun-2006 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 1423 |
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Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 10:58 |
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Chilbudios, I agree with you, my opinion was exactly the same, but Tar is saying that Gesta is completely fictive.
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
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Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 07:51 |
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Make them gif...It should help unless the map isn't of huge proposions pixel wise. |
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SĂĽ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
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Tar Szerénd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 18:21 |
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Hi
Ok, Menumorut, my opinion was a little bit extreme. (but f.e. the Little Mermaid has a statue too:-)))-and some of the Grimm tales have historical background, like the one about the child cather/flute player).
So, I found some maps/made photos, and special thanks to Menumorut for resizing them. I didn't find (good enough) visible maps of the avar period, and an other with the gepide kingdom will follow. (Flipper, thanks for the offer too)
Ok, Meroving period, Gepidia, from "Die Gepiden" -Ein frühmittelalterliches germanisches Königreich auf den grossen ungarisches Tiefebene, Gyula, 1999. p.32.:
 454 or 455: The battle by the Nedao river; end of the rule of the huns in the Charpatian basin
450's-460's : the creation of the gepida kingdom
469: battle by the Boila river; the gepida-sarmatian-other small german tribes union versus the east-goths (they lived in Pannonia ~west from the Danube, under king Thiudimer)the union lost.
473: the goths leaved, the gepidas invaded Pannonia Secunda /Pannonia Sirmiensis (The territory below Voivodina) and occupied Sirmium
480's-500: 3 gepida centres: In Transylwania, by the Maros/Mures mouth and in Sirmium
504: The east goths occupied Sirmium and PS.
523: The gepidas of P.S. were settled/send into Gallia by king Theoderik.
528/530: The gepides tried to invade P.S.
536: The gepides occupied P.S. and Sirmium
539-551: the the greatest extend of Gepidia: It included the land east of the Tisza river; the Bánát; Transylvania, P.S. (and Voivodina), Parts of West-Muntinia-west from the Olt.
547: first langobard attacks under king Audoin (mostly different vasall herul groups fought with each-other)
551 or 552: The battle of Asfeld, somewhere in P.S. between langobards and gepidas. The gepida commander/prince Thorismund died, + the gepidas had to leave some occupied byzantian territories.
End of the 550's, 560's: the gepida kings were: Turisind and Kunimund. The gepida centre was Sirmium (there lived the king, it was the centre of the gepida arian church, mint)
555-560: Fight against the slavs in Transylvania
567: The end of Gepidia
567, autumn: Usdibud gepidian dux evacuated Sirmium and went into Bizantium.
600, autumn: Priscus, greek commander found 3 gepida villages in the Bánát, and attacked them.
627: avarian siege of Constantinople, with gepida units.
Avars:
562: Avars by the Lower Danube. They couldn't achieve to get over to Gepidia (by the Olt and trough the Transylwanian passes, defended by the gepidas) and into Bizantium, so Bajan kagan went arround the Charpatians with his army in 563, but in Austrasia(!!) king I. Sigibert beated him.
Winter of 565/566: the avars try to get trough the Lower-Danube, but they were chased away.
566: The second avarian campaign around the Charpatians, they beat Sigibert.
567: Langobard-avar alliance-the langobards let them into the Charpatian basin trough the Moravian pass. -Bajan destroyed Gepidia.
567: the first - unsuccesful- avarian siege of Sirmium, but the avar army attacked trough the banks of the maros/Mures river Transylvania, and opened opened the pass of Vöröstorony for the other avars, and with their help they occupied the whole Gepidia.
568-803: Avar khaganat in the Charpatian basin
568: Bajan let to build a bridge between Sirmium and Singidunum, the avars attacked Bizantium.
630: crisis in the kaganat
790's : Karoling campaigns against the avars (all of them took several weeks:-), the franks lost several nobles, and the 9/10 of their horses, but "they won", certenly. on the other hand they couldn't occupie with several campaigns the territory of Ljudevit(he had much less military power than the one of the avars) between the Sava and Drava between 819-825...
795: Eric, dux of Friaul occupied the main avarian ring, the way of the frank army was written down in the grave poem of Paulinus: Isonzo-Istria-Culpa-Sava-Drava-Mura-Danube-Tisza.
803: Krum and his bulgars occupied /destroyed the avars. Bulgarian rule in P.S.
1st half of the 9th Century: slawic rule between the Drava and Sava (Ljudevit and Ratimar)
826-831: Frank-bulgar(Omurtag) wars.
The Charpatian basin in the 9th century, according to written sources and archaeological founds (Magyar Kódex, 1. The world of the Arpadians, 18. p., Budapest, 1999, Kossuth Publ.)
 South of the Voividina, there lived the Timocans, and west from their terr. between Drava and Sava was Sclavonia. In the terr. of the later Bánát there is written: "Vulga(ro)rum Fines."
862. The first hungarian army in the Charpatian basin
895-896: all Hungarians in the C. basin.
900: left banks of the Middle-Danube: hungarian territory.
932/34: according to Masudi the hungarians of the south by the Danube see the bulgars on the other riverside. There was a bulgarian "land" (He thought probably on Bulgarian Belgrad, in hungarian: Onogundur~ Nándor Fehérvár (Bulgarian white castle). "They are more bulgarians, than hungarians, but the hungarians are stronger."
Pannonia Sirmiensis became probably part of the Gyepü, the hungarian frontier (uninhabitated area).
1003. I. Stephen beated Ajtony and occupied his tribe-land south or around the Maros. One of his underman, Csanád , relative of Stephen was the leader of the king's army. Ajtonys centre was Marosvár, not Csongrád, so I don't think he was (officially) bulgarian. F.e. he got hungarian officiers, soldiers etc.
1003: Bruno of Querfurt went to the "black hungarians" to the south-east of the country to christianize them. He wrote "... quamis nostri...cum peccata magno aliquos cecarent..." (we have made blind some of them before) -I hope I wrote it correctly. Maybe they fought by Lechfeld (Augsburg) in 955-thats the only event where blind made hungarians are mentioned.
(Lotter, F.: Brun von Querfurt, Lexikon des Mittelalters)
1046, 1061: hungarian pagan uprisings, started in South- and East-Hungary.
1067: King Salamon and prince Géza - in croatian alliance - fought against the carantans
1071. Nicetas, the bizantian commander of Belgrad instigated bizantian pechenegs to attack Pannonia Sirmiensis. The hungarian reply: the hungarians besieged Belgrad, and Sirmium. The hungarian name of Sirmium: Szerém, P.S.: Szerémség.
1080. king I. Ladislaus occupied back from Byzantium parts of Szerémség below the Sava.
1089. croatian king Zvoinimir died, his wife Ilona called his brother, I. Ladislaus to help. He occupied Slavonia.
Slavonia: the hungarians called it at the first time Tótföld (Teut land). It cames from teut(-sch/deutsch). the hungarians called germans "Német", from the slawian nemec-or sth. like that), so this teut name came from other groups, probably from avars, gepidas or bulgars.
But from that time the hungarians called all slavs in Hungary 'tót'.
Slavonia was the territory between the Drava and Sava, west from the hungarian castle counties of Valkó, Pozsega and Baranya. It belonged to the bishop of Veszprém, Pécs and to the abbot of Pannonhalma. Their inhabitants had to pay their taxes with weasel leathers- this is showed in Slavonia's coat of arms, too.
Voivodina: :-) The territory wich became Voivodina in the 18 th Century, was called simply south Hungary, between the Danube and the Tisza. The territory below them was Szerémség, the name of the castle/fortess county there was Szerém (before that it was called Borgyán). Voivodina was part of the castle counties of Bács, Lower Bodrog, Csongrád and Fehér. It belonged to ther arcbishop of Kalocsa.
Bánát: Before it became a Bánát, it belonged to the bishop of Csanád, and were made of 5 castle counties, Temes, Csanád, Krassó, Keve and Arad. "Voivodina", The Szerémség and the "Bánát" had the best earth (largest agricultur) in the mediavel Hungary, with hungarian inhabitants.
1091. King Ladislaus occupied Croatia 'til the Dalmatian borders. Prince Álmos became the croatian king.
1091. Because of the hungarian conquests the greeks instigated the kumans/kipchaks to attack Hungary. Ladislaus beated them by the Temes, and by Orsova.
1092: The second big kuman attack from the south under the command of Ákos. There were beaten too. (these hungarian victories were very efficient, because these were the last large kuman attacks against Hungary)
1096. First crusader campaigns trough Hungary. The army of Peter of Amiens besieged the hungarian border fortess/trade center of Zimony, and killed 4000 hungarians. After that they went trough the Danube with the captured large herds and food into bizantian territory, but the commander of Belgrad attacked them with pecheneg and hungarian units, and they robbed everything back:-). It's interesting, that the "settled" hungarians used after 100 years of christianizing the same tactics, weapons etc like the pechenegs (horrn/bone bows, lances with little flags etc.
1122. The last large pecheneg groups came into Hungary, parts of them were settled near to Lower Bodrog county.
1127-1190's: the large hungarian-bizantian wars. King II. Stephen occupied Belgrad, Barancs, Nis and Sofia, and builded the fortess of Zimony new. (it was a funny thing: when the hungarians besieged Belgrad, they took its stones away to Zimony, to build new walls, bastions, etc. And when the bizantians besieged Zimony, then they took the stones to build Belgrad new:-)
1127: The greeks (ok, bizantians, so greeks, seldjuks, christianized muslims, armenians, serbs, pechenegs, varangs etc) beated the hungarians by Haram, and occupied Szerémség.
1129: The hungarians occupied the Szerémség.
1130: Peace, and hungarian-serbian alliance against the greeks
1152: The hungarians occupied the Szerémség and Zimony
1154: Meating of the hungarian (under II. Géza) and bizantian armies, but no battle
1155: Hungarians try to besiege Baranc
1156: Peace for 5 years
1163: Greek campaign until Belgrad
1164: IV. Stephen (rival hungarian king) occupied with greek forces the Szerémség; hungarian-bizantian peace, emperor Manuel got the hungarian Croatia and Dalmatia (he got an other hungarian prince in Constantinople, prince Béla, later III. Béla, C and D belonged him); the hungarians besieged Zimony; Manuel besieged Zimony. Greeks: attacked Hungary from 3 sides: Manuel attacked the Szerémség, Béla attacked the 'Bánát' and walachians attacked Transylvania from the east.
1166. The hungarian comes Dienes occupied the Szerémség.
1167. jun. 18th. : the battle of Zimony, the hungarians lost
Hungary in the 13th Century, from the Worldatlas of History, Cartographia, Bp, 110p.
  Greek and german sources from the 12th Century:
Ioannes Kinnanos: Sirmium: 1165: emperor Manuel settled hungarian horezmians from Sirmium into Bizantium.
Mikhail Patriarch: Sirmium: has the best earth of Paionia, the horse grower-raiser(?), flouted by the rivers.
Niketas Khoniates: the best land of the huns (hung.), with deep plains to raising horses.
Otto von Freising (came trough Hungary with Emperor Barbarossa during the 2. crusaide):
The hungarians here were living in houses during the winter, but in summer they lived in tents.
Irdisi arabian geogr. writer: Nagyolaszi (city in the Szerémség, italian fundation) "it is a large and pretty plain city...full with richness and enjoyable things, but it's inhabitants are nomads."
1150: Abu Hamid al-Andalusi al-Gamati: Sirmium: there are living thousends of horezmians, serving the king. They are christianized in public, but they are muslims.
 1172: King III. Béla, after Manuels death he occupied everything back from the greeks.
1196: III. Béla died, his two sons, king Imre and and prince Andreas fought a battle by Macek in Slavonia in 1197.
1198: Andreas got Slavonia, Croatia, Dalmatia, Rama (parts of Bosnia), he beated the serbians of Kulm, and ruled suveren from Hungary.
1201: King Imre (Heinrich-Imre(prince, Holy..., son of Holy Stephen)-Emericus-Amerigo-America:-))) occupied parts of Serbia and Bulgaria
1209: King Andreas (since 1205), His wife, gertrudis was german, the german influence became larger, first the German order, than german colonists came into Hungary. the german order-knights were chased avay in 1225, but the colonists were settled down since cc.1210 in Transylvania and in the Szepesség, in north Hungary by the polish border. The Bánát and Voivodina germans came 550 years later-about this later:-)
1233: The banat of Szörény is constructed, with kuman, walachian inhabitants and hungarian settlers. (3. map, left from the little map, east of the banat of Kucsó)
1239: King IV. Béla settled the kumans (who fled from the mongols)into Hungary, but before the Mongol invasion the land is highly inhabitated, so the kumans made just troubles when they moved with their herds on the agricult. territories.
1241: The hungarian and german citizens of Pest (after the instigation by Friderich of Austria) killed the kuman king Kuten. After that the kumans leaved Hungary trough the south, and burned, killed, robbed what they could reach. They beated the armies of Bulcsú, bishop of Csanád and Nicolas, son of Barc.
1241-1242. Mongol invasion in Hungary. 1/3-1/2 of the inhabitants were killed, robbed, or died of hunger. In the lawer territories of the south was the case worser.
South Hungary in the 13th Century, Wa. o.H.
 After 1242: the kumans are back, king IV. Béla settled them between the Danube and Tisza (pink areas in the middle of the country in the third map) and by the Temes and Körös rivers. From the last two areas the kumans leaved after their uprising in 1281/82.
The north of 'Voividina' became Halas szék (~Fish county-the totem of that kipchaks was the pike)
After king Bela's death(1272) : The time of the "Little Kings" (strong baron families-weak kings)
Our territory(Slavonia, Szerém,) was ruled by the barones Subic, Babonic, Csák Ugrin, István Dragutin and the Kőszegi family. The Temesköz was land of the king, f.e. Temesvár was untill 1322/23 the capital of Hungary, because Buda was to near to Csák Mátés (the official comes palatinus:-) "land" in North Hungary.
The "banats": -these were military districts-to pretend the south borders- south from hungary, with a fortess as centre, under the command of the bán. (Slavonia and Croatia got báns too, but they were part of the kingdom and the báns there were barones-the only "little" ban, who became a baron too, was the one of Szörény-he got the lowest baron rank in the toplist:-) So, there were the banats of Macsó, Kucsó, Só, Ozora and Szörény.
After the mongol invasion Szörény became recreated, but the inhabitants were just some kumans and mostly walachians, and just a few hungarian soldiers in the fortes of Szörény.
inthe time of the Little kings hungary lost Szörény and some other banats to Serbia.
1355: Hungarian-serbian war (I. Louis of Anjou - car Dusan)
1356: Dusans death; the banats of Macsó and Belgrad became part of Hungary again.
1369: the banat of Szörény became hungarian-Sz. and the other banats became a buffer zone against the ottomans.
Middle and South Hungary in the time of the Hunyadis and Jagellos (1446-1526) (W.a. of hist, 114-115.)
 1367: the first battle between hungarians and ottomans (in Bulgaria)
1389: Kosovo polje (with some hungarian troups under baron Garai - Slavonian ban)
the first serbians move into Hungary.
1390's: the first ottoman attacks against South-Hung.
1396 sept. 28.: The lost battle of Nicopolis
1397: the hung. parlament decided to arm a mounted archer after every 20 plots in Hungary, and to build/ fortess lines as defend centres in the south. The institution of the fortess headquarters was created -oh, sorry, that happend later...
1413: the ottomans occupied Szendrő
1415: the ottomans attacked Croatia, the hungarian units lost
1416: 2 ottoman armies attacked Hungary. One was beaten by the Stayer borders, the other one by Temesvár. reports about hungarin hereticals in South-Hungary
1419: Hungarian attacke against the ottomans (into Bulgaria)
1426: contract between Step. Lazarevic and king Sigismund (when L. die, Hungary w. became Belgrad, Macsó and the fortes of Galambóc)
1427: L died. the ottomans occupied Galambóc, the hungarians builded a counter fortess(Lászlóvár), they besieged Galambóc, but they failed.
1432: Georg Brankovic rebuilded Lászlóvár.
1436: Jacob of Marchia: inquizition in South Hungary.
1437: the ottomans besieged Szendrő, but a hungarian army beated them (the first known battle of János Hunyadi)
1438: the largest(until that) ottoman attack against Hungary, mostly against Transylvania, they return into the empire with 70 000 captives.
1439: feudal anarchy in Hungary. The ottomans occupied Szendrő; Hunyadi became the bán of Szörény.
1440: The first ottoman siege of Nándorfehérvár(Belgrad) (the hungarian barones fought with each other). The fortess was defended succesfully, but the ottomans practically cleaned the Szerémség, there was no living human or animal there after they had gone.
This happened later almost with all of the hungarian lands near by a frontier fortess during the 300 years of the ottoman wars.
1442: ottoman attack , the hungarians lost the battle by Marosszentimre, but Hunyadi beated the army of beg Mezid by Szeben.
1443: hungarian campaign against the ottomans
1444: h.c.a.t.o., but they lost the battle by Varna, and king Ulászló died
1448: hungarian campaign, second battle by Kosovo polje (oktobe 18-19), hungarians:ottomans= 1:2, the hungarians lost , Hunyadi was captured by G. Brankovic, he closed him into Szendrő. The hungarians besieged the fortess, Brankovic allowed Hunyadi to leave, but he got back the lands and castles wich became hungarian in 1426.
1450: the hungarian parlament confiscated the goods of Brankovic:-)
1455: the ottomans occupied Novoberdo, the Pope proclaimed the crusade in Europe.
1456: the crusade: II. Mohamed besieged Nándorfehérvár in June (second ottoman siege), supposedly with 150 000 men, 300 canons and 200 ships, but the forces of the Hunyadi clan and the hungarian crusader army beated the turks. The french, german etc. crusaders came a little bit later, and went home without face the ottomans. Hunyadi died in pest.
1460: The commander of the south frontier, brother in law of Hunyadi, Mihály Szilágyi was captured and beheaded by the ottomans.
1460's-70's: 2 hungarian campaigns into Serbia under Pál Kinizsi and king Corvinus against the ottomans, but the hungarian armies collected and brought serbian settlers into the empty Szerémség, too.
1463: Bosnia became under ottoman rule, King Corvinus (Mátyás Hunyadi) attacked and occupied Jajca.
(1390's-1690's: In spite of the few peace agreements between them, there were continuous ottoman attacks and hungarian counter attacks (and vice versa) during the 300 years-the land became a wilderness, the people were killed or moved away. The hungarian army became weaker and weaker, the ottomans got the larger sources-so the hungarian south border (and the hungarian fortess-line) moved -slowly or fast-to the north)
1472: the hungarians besieged at the first time the ottoman fortess of Szabács, but they failed-lated they could occupie it.
1479: ottoman campaign against Hungary-their army was beated by Kenyérmező.
1482: the beg of Szendrő attacked the Temesköz, Pál Kinizsi beated his army.
1483: hungarian ottoman peace for 5 years. (it was made because of Friedrich of habsburg-every time the hungarians started campaigns in the south against the turks, Friedrich(or one of his allianced "friends") attacked almost immediatelly Hungary-so he made a succesfully agressive hungarian politic against the turks impossible.
1490: Janos Corvinus (illegitimate son of the death king) became Bosnian king, prince of Slavonia, ban of Dalmatia and Croatia
1493: ottoman attack against Transylvania
1494: third ottoman siege of Nándorfehérvár. Hungarian forces under Pál Kinizsi beated the ottomans, attacked the ottoman serbian territories and occupied two fortesses.
1495: h-o peace for 3 years
1499: Janos Corvinus became the ban of Croatia and Slavonia once more
1500: the ottomans besieged Jajca
1501: Janos Corvinus reliefed the fortess
1502: the ottomans besieged Jajca once more; Janos Corvinus reliefed the fortess once more and attacked the ottoman Bosnia
1512: new border fights with the ottomans
1514: hungarian crusade "against the ottomans", but the peasant armies attacked the castles of the nobles. -Hungarian peasant war (the second). They were beaten(their main army besieged Temesvár when the royal hungarian forces attacked and beated them), and after that the hungarian peasants couldn't hold weapons.
1517: the ottomans besieged Jajca, but the hungarians reliefed the fortess. Again:-). Piece for 3 years.
1520: ottoman attack against Dalmatia and Bosnia.
1521: Sultan Soliman demanded for payment the hungarians.
7. July: the ottomans occupied Szabács
12. July: they occupied Zimony
29. Aug. : they occupied Nándorfehérvár (Belgrád)
The southern hungarian borderfortess line collapsed.
1522: the ottomans occupied Orsova
1526:
27. July: the ottomans occupied Pétervárad (today: Petrograd(?))
29. Aug. : the lost battle of Mohács, most of the hungarian nobles and main prelates (almost the whole hungarian heavy cavalry), the king and cc. 15000 men died, ottoman forces devastated the land
1526-27: Ivan Cerni (the "black car")collected a 12000 men strong southslaw peasant army by Lippa against the ottomans, but instead of that he made almost a king from himself. He occupied Szabadka and Szeged. The bishop of Nagyvárad, Imre Czibak attacked and beated (and killed) him in the battle of Sződ.
1541. once more 29. August (Soliman loved this date) the ottomans occupied Buda and made vilayets from the ovvupied parts of the land.
1543: the ottomans occupied Szeged
1551: they occupied Lippa
1552: they occupied Temesvár
South Hungary in the 1690's:
 1687. 12. Aug.: the christian forces beated the ottomans in the second battle of Mohács.
The Sava-Danube territory became the seat of operations after Middle Hungary.
1688. 9. Aug.: Maximilian Emanuelle occupied Belgrad from the turks.
1690: the ottomans occupied Belgrad back; 40-200 000 serbians came with Arzen Cernovic patriarka into the territory of Voivodina. They became a kind of militia and the Habsburgs made from them their border defend forces, settled down in military districts (violet parts in the map below) and not to forget the southern slaw (bosnian, serbian) troups who fought in the ottoman army and didn't leave Hungary.
1703-1711: hungarian uprising and war against the habsburgs under II.Ferenc Rákóczi.
The Habsburgs decided (to cool down the rebellic hungarian blood and to make money from the deserted lands) to resettle the empty hungarian lands.
this happened from inner sources (hungarians from North-Hungary, Slovakians from North-Hungary, romanians from Transylvania, Croatians from croatia), outer lands: germans from Baden-Würtenberg (schwaben), romanians from Walachia and Moldavia (ott. emp.), serbians from the ottoman empire. and most of the gipsys came at that time too.
The Banat, so the Temesköz became part of Hungary in 1778. After this date it became resettled with schwabians and romanians.
 Edited by Tar Szerénd - 08-Feb-2008 at 18:30 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 11:34 |
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Tar,
What is this map referencing?
I was interested in the red lines and blue lines and the battle of 1091 south of Temesvar.
Is this a Hungarian/Bulgar battle?
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Tar Szerénd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 13:31 |
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Hi
I'll continue immediately:-), and write the sources too, but ok, this map is from the 'Történelmi Világatlasz' (Worldatlas of History), Publisher: Kartográfiai Vállalat, Budapest (Chartographia Company, Bp.), 1991. page 109., Hungary in the 11th Century.
The lowest red line is the hungarian campaign under I. Stephen against Bulgaria in 1018.
The red and blue lines in Hungary: in 1091 king I. Ladislaus occupied Croatia, so Bizantium sent/instigated west kuman tribes to attack Hungary. They "begun" by the Upper Tisza, and plundered/killed along the river valley- they wanted to leave Hungary in the south.. King Ladislaus managed to came back rush with his army from Croatia and beated the kumans near to Temesvár. This was the same case one or two years later.
Edited by Tar Szerénd - 18-Jan-2008 at 13:32 |
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Menumorut
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Jun-2006 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 1423 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 18:15 |
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I make the mention that I have read some materials writen by Hungarian historians which were clearly lying. Of course anything about archaeology of the territory of Romania is based on the works by Romanian archaeologists who have had the deepest contact with the sites and artefacts but the Hungarian ones were taking the result of their work and mystified in a unfair manner.
What language were speaking the Timocans and there is an interpretation of what Vulgarum Fines is meaning? |
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Tar Szerénd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 19:34 |
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The Timocans were slavs, but I have no idea what VF means... Bulgarian ... Frontier, maybe?
I'll continue tomorrow, I was on our Folclore dance festival and Iwas dancing 2 hours long, I'll sleep:-)) I put some of the dances up to Youtube. Edited by Tar Szerénd - 18-Jan-2008 at 19:36 |
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Menumorut
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Jun-2006 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 1423 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 20:06 |
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I'm not playing, on a site (which was presented on AE months ago) of Hungarian 'history', all the discoveries from Transylvania that were not having a Germanic or Avar aspect have been presented as Slavic, for supporting the myth of the vanish of Daco-Roman population from Transylvania. Why are those Timocans Slavs? In that region Romanians have been allways the majoritary population in Middle Age and until today. I wait the link for the You Tube video. |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 02:05 |
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Possibly this is a hold over name from Roman times. There was at least one fortified city called Teutiborgio, possibly two. The other being called Teutibarcio, according to the Notitia Dignitatum, early 400's ad in Pannoniae Secundae Ripariensis and Saviae.
But I noticed, you didn't mention anything about Salan/Zalan the Bulgarian Duke.
The reason I ask, is becuase of Slankamen the town just south of Titel, Salan's supposed capitol is shown on an old map from 1528 as Salan Kamen.
I am particlarly interested in this area, up through Curug.
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Tar Szerénd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 15:19 |
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He fought against King Stephen in 1018? Ok, no, this was Kean.
Edited by Tar Szerénd - 21-Jan-2008 at 18:31 |
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Tar Szerénd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 15:30 |
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Ok, Menumorut, the areas in the black lines in Transylvania and in Upper Hungary are showing really slavic settlements. If there had been some -or even significant walachian population, (you know my personal opinion; but a new stuff from me: I'll discuss this with you in one of the Transylv. topcs); the dacian romanized pop. had left D. in the 3. Cent, and settled in the new dacia created in North Moesia, hadn't they? mybe the Karps came in the Carrpatians instead of them. ) this fact would be shown by f.e. Mountain, hill, spring names, like the case by slaws is (Belgrad-w-s of the middle ages called it almost the same way, not Alba Iulia, f.e, Bistrica-Beszterce etc.), or the walachians wouldn't call ed Erdély Ardeil (or. s.l.t.), or the first romanian springname wouldn't came from the high middle ages etc.
Edited by Tar Szerénd - 19-Jan-2008 at 15:30 |
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Chilbudios
Arch Duke
Joined: 11-May-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1900 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 17:16 |
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Tar Szerénd, you are right about those toponyms but what about:
Karpenys (1405), Karpenica alias Gertyanos (1424) in Maramureş (rom. Cărpeniş) - a similar pair exists in Banat but I'm not sure about the datings
Valle Zeku (1228) - Târnave (rom. Valea Seacă)
Cornachel (1308), poss. Hortobagh (1319) - Sibiu (rom. Cornăţel, germ. Hartbach)
and so many others.
Or, we can check some controversial etymologies. Is Amaradia (a river from Oltenia) derived from the rom. "amar" (bitter) or from the magh. "hamar" (fast)? It's a slow-flowing river with huge concentration of salts and minerals?
All the Romanian words forming those toponyms are Latin (carpen < carpinus, vale < vallis, sec < siccus, corn < cornus, amar < amarus). And if I'm not mistaken those are the earliest attestations (I don't know when they formed, but there's no Slavic, Magyar or any other precedents). As such, the Transylvanian and Banatian toponymy has an undeniable Romanian component.
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