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Moors were Black

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    Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 22:55

Indeeed. The arrival of the Tuaregs marked the beginning of the end of Muslim Spain. After that, Christians never stopped winning territory after territory, and didn't stop before they get rid of Muslims in Spain. But they also invaded North Africa to stop new waves of fanatics from comming.

The glorious period of Al-Andalus, from the 8th century up to the Almoravides invasion in the 12th, was ruled by Arabs.

 

 

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  Quote ConradWeiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:21
Hmm. The answer to this is that the term 'Moors' is a name given to muslim people by Europeans in Spain. The only unifiers here are religion and geography, it has no real reference to ethnic background, race, or original origin.
 
So, what did the Moors look like?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
These are pictures of Berbers, Arabs, Spanish, and Portuguese. Sure, the initial invasion was by Arabs and Berbers, but do you think the entire pre-invasion population ran northward? Of course not. The Moors were a multi-racial population...just like Mexicans, Iranis, Chinese, Sudanese, etc.
 
Race and terms associated, like Negroid, Caucasian, and Mongoloid, are no longer scientific terms. No wonder. ^^^Cool
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:36

Indeed. As it happened and I have insisted in here, the term "Moreno" means all your pictures above, except ONE LOL..  The term Moro means both Muslim and Moroccian; that's people of the Maghreb and not from the Niger valley. And Kabyles are the main representatives of Berbers, and not the mixed bloods called Tuaregs on the picture above.

Come on. How can English speakers know better of who where the Moors IN SPAIN?  I wonder.
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 09-Dec-2007 at 23:37
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  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:42
<<Race and terms associated, like Negroid, Caucasian, and Mongoloid, are no longer scientific terms. No wonder.>>

That doesnt  even make sense nor is it factual.

Race and terms like Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid are in fact still used and are real.

Mongoloid is instead given "Asian", and "Negroid" has been changed to Black or the silly "African-American", and Caucasian and White hasnt been altered . Go fill out a US census paper and while your at,  read a science book. Today, we have to deal political correctness , where somehow "Africa", and Negro/Black became synonymous with eachother...when the reality is Africa, is home to indigenous Caucasoid peoples(one example Berbers), and has been for over 30,000 years.


Also if races doesn't exist, then why are you using, "Multi-racial"?!


Halle Berry is part Negro and part White, yet she is referred to as "Black-American", so another part has to do with social terms. She is in fact an example of a, "Multi-racial", not Ms Cruz.

It also seems your using selected photos of people to suit your agenda. Penelope Cruz doesn't look "Berber", nor is
hypothetical Berber admixture a reason to account for her phenotype/looks.


Edited by Tyranos - 09-Dec-2007 at 23:44
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:44
Originally posted by Al Jassas

I have something to say about this subject. The overwhelming majority of muslim imigrants to Spain were Berber not Arabs. Arabs were a small minority while the Berbers were large. Arabs preferred the old Visigoth nobility over the Berbers and most of the Taifa kings were descendents from the old nobility while the rule was with the Arabs. However, during the time of Al-Mansur ibn Abi Amir he brought a lot of the tuareg berber (mostly negroid) to Al-Andalus and because of extreme political differences the revolted burning down Cordoba, Al-Zaherah and Al-Zahra and looting them. The rebellion was destroyed and a republic was proclaimed in Cordoba while the rest of the muslim held parts were divided inot the taifa. Al-Moravids were led by berbers but their elite forces were the Black cavalry which was responsible for Az-Zallaqah and other victories. Yousif ibn Tashfin himself is Black or had very dark skin based on his discriptions that maybe one of the reasons for thinking that most moors were black while they were not. There was little immigration to Al-Andalus starting with Al-Moravids,  the immigration was the other way around.


Indeed. Congrats with the most clarifying post in the thread.

Originally posted by pinguin

Indeeed. The arrival of the Tuaregs marked the beginning of the end of Muslim Spain. After that, Christians never stopped winning territory after territory, and didn't stop before they get rid of Muslims in Spain. But they also invaded North Africa to stop new waves of fanatics from comming.


Well now, initially the Tuaregs were the saviours of Muslim Spain, and temporarily turned the tide against the Christians. The reconquista was a long process and its success cannot be attributed the Tuareg invasion. The Moors started losing land to the Christians as soon as their conquest was complete, then it swayed back and forth until such Christian victories as Toledo in 1085 and Las Navas de Tolosa in 1212 tipped the balance in favour of the Christians. Possibly the religious fervour of the Tuaregs helped instill an even more defiant spirit in the Christians, but that's as far as the blame goes.

As for fanatics from North Africa, well, the Spanish too were known for overzealousness in this period (if one could be too zealous), it's not like they represented the forces of rationality and secularism.

And Siemowit, I don't know what kind of book or article you are working on, but judging from your questions here I must say I'm sceptical. Have you studied history at college or university? Your lack of historical method, especially source criticism, is quite glaring. A history work today must meet the minimum requirements of proper historical method, else it is academically worthless. If you are aware of this and I'm simply misjudging you based on the few lines you have written here, then I am sorry, but the fact that you actually tried to examine the ethnic origin of the Moors based on Shakespeare and a White Supremacist website leads me to grave doubt. Unless you have a history degree of some kind I can just advise you to be extremely careful with sources and apply good sense. If I were you I'd stay away from wiki and dubious websites and pick up some books on the subject instead, written by contemporary and acknowledged scholars.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:56

I agree with the above post. However, Penolope Cruz could be Kabyle, part of the authentic Amazigh (or Moors) 

The term Berber includes certain mixed mulatto peoples like the Tuareg and peoples that live in Ghana and even in Nigeria. However, the main groups of Berbers are Caucasoids. Those brown haired and brown eyed Caucasoid peoples of North Africa are, in fact, the historical Moors.
 
Pictures of Berbers (Amazigh)
 
 
In other terms, Hally Barry could easily be considered a Tuareg, but she would never be considered Kabyle.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 00:13
Originally posted by Reginmund

...

Well now, initially the Tuaregs were the saviours of Muslim Spain, and temporarily turned the tide against the Christians. The reconquista was a long process and its success cannot be attributed the Tuareg invasion.
 
Agreed. The resistence was from the very beginning. And the atrocities of the first wave of invasion was not forgotten by the Christians either.
However, the Tuareg exhibition of power in spain was the last drop...
 
Originally posted by Reginmund

...
The Moors started losing land to the Christians as soon as their conquest was complete, then it swayed back and forth until such Christian victories as Toledo in 1085 and Las Navas de Tolosa in 1212 tipped the balance in favour of the Christians. Possibly the religious fervour of the Tuaregs helped instill an even more defiant spirit in the Christians, but that's as far as the blame goes.

In fact, the climate of tolerancy that the Umayyads once impossed in Al-Andalus was gone with the arrival of these other people. The persecution on Mozarabs (Christians) of Cordoba is just an example of that change of attitute. And with that Christian find out they couldn't tolerate Muslims on its land anymore.
 
Originally posted by Reginmund

...
As for fanatics from North Africa, well, the Spanish too were known for overzealousness in this period (if one could be too zealous), it's not like they represented the forces of rationality and secularism.
 
Spaniards learn the lesson of fanaticism from theirs invaders. They were good pupils.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 10-Dec-2007 at 00:13
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  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 00:38



 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

I agree with the above post. However, Penolope Cruz could be Kabyle, part of the authentic Amazigh (or Moors) 


The flip side of this reasoning, and what many always seem to forget( or neglect), is that North Africa, was controlled by Europeans(Romans) for a far longer and more significant time beforehand, and then some various Germanic tribes, and again Romans/Byzantines again.

If its all about the "looks" game like its the 19th century all over again, then why not old Sean Connery here:Wink





*The reality is that there's been very little cross genetic admixtures, from either Europe or North Africa, in recent times. The only problem with North Africa today, is that there has been a lotve Sub Saharan migrations Northwards, bringing more Negroids into Caucasoid North African lands(they use this for a spring board into Europe now)...this isnt even considering the Islamic Slave trade either, btw.

Here's some Anthroplogy:


"Pure Berbers rarely mix with the low caste Negroes(often their used as slaves), the Rifians are the fairest of the Berbers. "

"Wherever or however they live, the Berbers refuse to mate with Negroid lower classes, but human nature being what it is, there evidently has been a certain amount of mixture. In Morocco, the most Caucasoid tribes are those of the Rif and Middle Atlas, in Algeria they are the Kabyles and the Shwia; and in Libya, the sedentary tribesmen of Jebel Nefusa. In certain regions the trickle of mixture with Africans has been balanced by the absorption of Arabs, not so much tribe by tribe but through the establishment of saintly families derived from the earlier of two main Arab invasions."
 
(Professor Coon, THE LIVING RACES OF MAN, 1965 )





MOORS

"In one sense the word 'Moor' means the Mohammedan Berbers and Arabs of north-western Africa, with some Syrians, who conquered most of Spain in the eighth century and dominated the country for hundreds of years, leaving behind some magnificent examples of their architecture as a lasting memorial of their presence. These so-called 'Moors' were far in advance of any of the peoples of northern Europe at that time, not only in architecture but also in literature, science, technology, industry, and agriculture; and their civilization had a permanent influence on Spain. They were Europids, unhybridized with members of any other race. The Berbers were (and are) Mediterranids, probably with some admixture from the Cromagnid subrace of ancient times. The Arabs were Orientalids, the Syrians probably of mixed Orientalid and Armenoid stock. The skin of Orientalids and of some Berbers darkens readily under the influence of sunlight, and many of them become quite dark in the exposed parts of the body. The association of dark skin with the name of 'Moors' resulted eventually in the same term being applied to Negrids."

(John Baker , RACE, 1974)




Edited by Tyranos - 10-Dec-2007 at 00:45
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  Quote ConradWeiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 00:43
Originally posted by Tyranos

<<Race and terms associated, like Negroid, Caucasian, and Mongoloid, are no longer scientific terms. No wonder.>>

That doesnt  even make sense nor is it factual.

Race and terms like Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid are in fact still used and are real.

Mongoloid is instead given "Asian", and "Negroid" has been changed to Black or the silly "African-American", and Caucasian and White hasnt been altered . Go fill out a US census paper and while your at,  read a science book. Today, we have to deal political correctness , where somehow "Africa", and Negro/Black became synonymous with eachother...when the reality is Africa, is home to indigenous Caucasoid peoples(one example Berbers), and has been for over 30,000 years.
 
Well, this is of course debateable.
 
Race, generally skin-color, is largely determined by the ammount of Melanin someone has. Melanin is generally produced to protect the body from UV rays. This is why people closer to the equator generally have darker skin. The dark skin of some people who live far from the equator, such as that of the inuit, is attributed to the consumption of certain proteins from which melenin is created.
 
So, melenin determines race. Melenin is a pigment. Separating people on the basis of melanin is like separating people on the basis of their white blood cell count.
 
 

Also if races doesn't exist, then why are you using, "Multi-racial"?!


Why did I use multi-racial? Habit, perhaps. Lack of a better word, maybe. This is the same dillema that the Census Bureau has. We feel a need to group people together to get a sense of diversity, yet have no qualifiers to determine that diversity.
 
Ethnicity might be a better term, an ethnic group being a people who share a similar culture/language/history. Latino/Hispanic is an example, but ethnic groups are hard to identify and lable in such countries as the United States, while easier in tribal-centered countries like Afghanistan.

Halle Berry is part Negro and part White, yet she is referred to as "Black-American", so another part has to do with social terms. She is in fact an example of a, "Multi-racial", not Ms Cruz.

It also seems your using selected photos of people to suit your agenda. Penelope Cruz doesn't look "Berber", nor is
hypothetical Berber admixture a reason to account for her phenotype/looks.
 
Hmm. Penelope is spanish, is she not? I never attributed her to being Berber...at least not directly. The people in these pictures are Spanish, Portuguese, Berbers, and Arabs. The point being, the original population in Spain (spanish/iberian/visigoths) largely converted to Islam with the invasion. That would make them Moors. (Sure, Penelope isn't muslim, but I was using her spanish heritage as an example of what some moors probably looked like)
 
Anyway, I appreciate the response.
 
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 00:46
Do you know where to find any medieval manuscripts and some paintings from former times ?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 00:57
Some rulers of Al-Andalus:
 
Abd ar-Rahman I. Abd ar-Rahman I Arabic: (عبد الرحمن الداخل), (known as the "Falcon of Andalus" or "The Falcon of the Quraish")[1] (born 731; ruled from 756 through his death circa 788) was the founder of a Muslim dynasty that ruled the greater part of Iberia for nearly three centuries.
 
Modern reproductions:
 
 
 
 
 
 
Abd ar-Rahman ibn Muhammad, (In arab: عبد الرحمن بن محمد), better known as Abderramn III or Abd al-Rahman III (Crdoba, January 7, 891 - Medina Azahara, October 15, 961),
 
Abderramn%20III
 
 
Almanzor, Tutor of Hisham III. 938-1002
 
Almanzor%20recreado%20por%20Zurbarn
 
Al-Hakam II
 
 
 
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 14:13
Who created those pictures of Abd ar-Rahman ibn Muhammad and  Almanzor ? And when were they created ?
 
And who created that sculpture (and when) ?
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 14:25

Dear Reginmund I am an amateur, I completely agree with you that I lack historical knowledge and method. I write this work for website which will be soon created.

I didn't treat Shakespear as a source about medieval times, but as a source of "how people understand and undestanded the word Moor"
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 14:32
Originally posted by Siemowit

...I didn't treat Shakespear as a source about medieval times, but as a source of "how people understand and undestanded the word Moor"
 
The problem, fellow is that Islamic Spain or Moor's Spain has nothing to do with what Shakespear's definition of Moor in Otello. In other words, a "Moor" of Spain would probably be of the same aspect, or "race", than Desdemona. Wink
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 14:41
Originally posted by Siemowit

Who created those pictures of Abd ar-Rahman ibn Muhammad and  Almanzor ? And when were they created ?
 
And who created that sculpture (and when) ?
 
Good question. Actually there are very few pictures of the Moor rulers of the time because it is known Muslims avoid portraits.
 
However, there exist some pictures that show moors. This is the Moorish ambassador to Queen Elizabeth, for instance:
 
 
As you can see, the physical type is well known and defined.
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 14:48
LOL, thjis thread is very circular and repetitive.   I am going to turn it around here:

The vast majority of Moors over the centuries were NOT black, least of all their rulers.   Given their origins this should be obvious, even to an amateur.

Now what evidence do you have to the contrary?

Edited by Zagros - 10-Dec-2007 at 14:49
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 14:54
Originally posted by Zagros

LOL, thjis thread is very circular and repetitive.   I am going to turn it around here:

The vast majority of Moors over the centuries were NOT black, least of all their rulers.   Given their origins this should be obvious, even to an amateur.

Now what evidence do you have to the contrary?
 
Co-sign.
 
What's the evidence?
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 15:20
Hello to you all
 
Well I thought the discussion died with me but it seems that youu went too far ahead. The best source written about Al-Andalus was Al-Maqarri's "Nafh Al-Teeb".  The main sources for his book came from the Andalusian refugees that came from Spain immediatly after the fall of Granada or after. You should understand that the Andalusians are a seperate ethnic group in Morocco and Algeria that lives to this day. It is estimated that theyy are about 15% of the total population of both countries. They are more educated than average and easil distinguisable from the rest by their quasi-European features.  Blond or brunette is not uncommon and have much fairer skin than the rest of the population. They concentrations today are on the atlantic coast cities and nearby inland cities. 
 
Also another interesting note is that after the fall of the Caliphate, the moors became more and more Spaniardized. Remember that muslims always were in the minority and the largest they were was not more than 40% of the total population and that was during the Nasrids the last muslim dynasty. Spanish was common and the popular songs had lots of spanish words or even lines. People ceased to wear Islamic clothes and wearing turbans was actually a sign of vulgarity in some communities. The only difference was in religion and language.
 
By the way Abdurrahman III was blond with blue eyes, his mother if I was not wrong was either a slav concubine or a descendent of old Vesigoth nobility, I will check later.
 
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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 17:49
Originally posted by Zagros

LOL, thjis thread is very circular and repetitive.   I am going to turn it around here:

The vast majority of Moors over the centuries were NOT black, least of all their rulers.   Given their origins this should be obvious, even to an amateur.

Now what evidence do you have to the contrary?
 
I agree with you.
The fact that the Moors brought with them sub-saharan africans as mercenaries or slaves doens't make the entire nation black. 
Some Moorish kings could have had sub-saharan blood just as some members of the European nobility, but I couldn't care less because what is important is that they created a flowering civilization.
 
If you are curious to know what the ancient Berbers looked like, a good source would be the Roman Mosaics in Tunisia and Lybia.
I haven't bothered looking for them on the internet, but I'm sure if you type in "mosaic, tunisia" you'd come up with plenty of them. 
The Roman emperors Septimus Severus, Caracalla, and Alexander Severus were also or Moorish origin; just look up for a statue of them in Wikipedia, and you'll see what they looked like.
 
The Berbers had inhabitted North Africa since pre-Roman times, and many of them "Latinized" or "Semeticised" under Roman and Carthaginian colonization, just as later under Arab colonization.
 
I doubt that the "look" of North Africans had changed that much over the last 1000 years.
 
While there is no evidence that the Iberian Moors were not black, there is also no evidence that the ancient Chinese didn't have blue skin and red eyes.
 
All this black-white debate is an attempt to impose the U.S. mentality of race (which is crap) onto the rest of the world over different ages.
 
 
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 18:08
There is much evidence, showing that Moors were black. Many chronicles describe them as being completely black.

Where did you find that ambassador ? :-) Are there any other pictures ?



Edited by Siemowit - 10-Dec-2007 at 18:13
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