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Moors were Black

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  Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Moors were Black
    Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 22:02

Your confusing Somali Islamic romanticism( similar theories are present all over the muslim world) with actual descent. If Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a Han Chinese then those 19th century Somali islamic scholars would magically trace their origin to modern China instead of Arabia, but would that make us Chinese? Of course not and the anthropologists collecting those stories knew that very well. Fact is Africa is a giant continent, with a diverse stock of people and the 19th century Europeans simply didn't know what to make of the Horn of Africa because they believed in the 'true Negro' theory and therefore ran with the silly fairy tales told by Somali religious elders. This view however in modern accademia has largely been dropped so it's worrying to still see individuals insinuating that Horn of Africans migrated from the Arabian peninsula and that people who resembled them were predominant and 'native' to the Arabian peninsula when that's not true at all!

Your trying to tell me that the people i saw walking in the markets of Sana'a were simply descendants of ancient Iranian migrants? Iranians who speak a Indo-European language in ancient times simply decided to drop their own mother tongue and adopted an ancient semetic language instead? Iranians who carry R1a decided to mutate themselves into carrying J2? It doesn't make sense! people of the Arabian peninsula are descendants of the groups that stayed and who were related to the ones that migrated(Akkadians,Arameans,Assyrians etc)

Ancient texts should be taken with a grain of salt, there are references to the modern country of Georgia that says the people that were living there had dark skin and wooly hair(Colchis) but the same author is infamous for including ad populum material in his work so these references of Arabia being Eastern Ethiopia, i don't take them seriously because if you DO then you can't stop at Arabia but you have to include a vast landmass like the Indian subcontinent as 'Eastern Ethiopia' aswell because some ancient texts refer to the inhabitants as 'Ethiopians'

Me highlighting the error in your writing has nothing to do with nationalism, i just dislike poor scholarship that is fuelled by hatred. You guys don't recognize Yemenis and Omanis as legitimate native groups to the Arabian peninsula that are descendants of ancient ethnic groups who weren't that much different from themselves in terms of phenotype,genetics and culture.

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  Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 22:22
Originally posted by dmarniche

Originally posted by goldenstar

 
 

Well said... Clap

 
Who are you to tell an African what he should do? 
 
He is as much 'African' as a Masai or an Igbo, so why are you using 'African' as if he isn't one? I'm asking you this because a couple pages ago you claimed the origins of the 'original' Berber people was close to the ancient Somali city of Berbera, which is such poor scholarship sister, please stop making such claims for Africa's sake!
 
 
 
 
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  Quote dmarniche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 22:33
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

Your confusing Somali Islamic romanticism( similar theories are present all over the muslim world) with actual descent. If Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a Han Chinese then those 19th century Somali islamic scholars would magically trace their origin to modern China instead of Arabia, but would that make us Chinese? Of course not and the anthropologists collecting those stories knew that very well. Fact is Africa is a giant continent, with a diverse stock of people and the 19th century Europeans simply didn't know what to make of the Horn of Africa because they believed in the 'true Negro' theory and therefore ran with the silly fairy tales told by Somali religious elders. This view however in modern accademia has largely been dropped so it's worrying to still see individuals insinuating that Horn of Africans migrated from the Arabian peninsula and that people who resembled them were predominant and 'native' to the Arabian peninsula when that's not true at all!

Your trying to tell me that the people i saw walking in the markets of Sana'a were simply descendants of ancient Iranian migrants? Iranians who speak a Indo-European language in ancient times simply decided to drop their own mother tongue and adopted an ancient semetic language instead? Iranians who carry R1a decided to mutate themselves into carrying J2? It doesn't make sense! people of the Arabian peninsula are descendants of the groups that stayed and who were related to the ones that migrated(Akkadians,Arameans,Assyrians etc)

Ancient texts should be taken with a grain of salt, there are references to the modern country of Georgia that says the people that were living there had dark skin and wooly hair(Colchis) but the same author is infamous for including ad populum material in his work so these references of Arabia being Eastern Ethiopia, i don't take them seriously because if you DO then you can't stop at Arabia but you have to include a vast landmass like the Indian subcontinent as 'Eastern Ethiopia' aswell because some ancient texts refer to the inhabitants as 'Ethiopians'

Me highlighting the error in your writing has nothing to do with nationalism, i just dislike poor scholarship that is fuelled by hatred. You guys don't recognize Yemenis and Omanis as legitimate native groups to the Arabian peninsula that are descendants of ancient ethnic groups who weren't that much different from themselves in terms of phenotype,genetics and culture.

 
Thanks for bringing up the true negro theory which I am sure you would agree many people on this site subscribe to.  We can also bring up the hamitic theory which was based on their belief that Somali, Ethiopians, Bedja and ancient Egyptians who were undifferentiated skeletally in ancient times (according to them ) were only black or dark brown Caucasians because moved from "a Middle East".  The fact is in the neolithic times until early islamic times the skeletal evidence of the Yemen and much of the Arabian peninsula was undiferentiated from the horn of Africa and Sudan as was the names of many of the tribes. 
 
I am not telling you about the people of modern day Sana'a who for all I know they are descendants of slaves or Turks or Circassians.  I am sure the fact that  the early Arabs called themselves "blacks" as was mentioned in the quote by a non-Arab, and that according to European historians early Greeks and Romans called the people of the land of Yemen and the Himyarites and Sabaeans "Ethiopians" , that Sanaa which is in the Yemen was not occupied by people with fair skins .   
 
Sanaa was in ancient times the land of the Beni or Bani Amlukh mentioned as a clan of the Dthu Ruhawein o f the Himyarites. But yes, the Iranians (Persians) did come in and settle in the Yemen as did many other people later and their are numerous books that you can google to look this up.  They were the reason so many of the early Arabs became color conscious and starting trying to differentiate themselves from the immigrants.   
 
You are right that early writers should be taken with a grain of salt.  As far as the Colchians go however, there were not just one historian Herodotus to make mention of the black and woolly haired tribes of the region.  There were many. Some of their probable descendants remained in Sukhumi at least until the 20th century, and one of their leaders Dmitri Gulia claimed that his people had been in the area from ancient times and were descendants of the Abyssinians. 
 
Yemenis and Omanis are comprised of many "groups" like modern North Africans and yes,  subSaharans.  The groups that came to Yemen are diverse and well documented.  hatred for ethnic groups doesn't exist for me.  unlike most people my ancestors come from four continents and were of all colors.  Unfortunately - unlike me - most people are not proud of all of their heritage which is why they can not accept certain elements of the past.
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  Quote dmarniche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 22:36
My statement should have read -
 
"And why Ammianus Marcellinus of the 4th c. claimed the Arabian bedouins from Palmyra in southern Syria to Hadramaut in the Yemen were 'primarily derived from the cataracts of the Nile' in Sudan bordering the Blemmye."
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  Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 22:59
^I got it the first timeLOL
 

Basically your trying to counter fire with some more fire, which is futile. Why would you dismiss genetics and linguistics for ancient 'dubious' claims made by armchair writers who usually compiled their works from the comfort of their Kingdom/Empire's libraries? Cranial research also demonstrates that Somalis have phenotypical similarities with countries like Norway but that doesn't make us in any way descendants of 'Vikings'(wouldn't mind though, they are coolTongue) or the original Vikings. Omanis and Yemenis are legitimate ancient groups and not bastardised populations that descent from an ancient 'black race' that was overpowered by the oh so strong 'non-blacks' somewhere in antiquity.Dead

Salaam/Greetings/Thallah!Sleepy
   
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  Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 23:12
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

^I got it the first timeLOL
 

Basically your trying to counter fire with some more fire, which is futile. Why would you dismiss genetics and linguistics for ancient 'dubious' claims made by armchair writers who usually compiled their works from the comfort of their Kingdom/Empire's libraries? Cranial research also demonstrates that Somalis have phenotypical similarities with countries like Norway but that doesn't make us in any way descendants of 'Vikings'(wouldn't mind though, they are coolTongue) or the original Vikings. Omanis and Yemenis are legitimate ancient groups and not bastardised populations that descent from an ancient 'black race' that was overpowered by the oh so strong 'non-blacks' somewhere in antiquity.Dead

Salaam/Greetings/Thallah!Sleepy
   


You're wasting your time, he is  a fanatic and is convinced that everyone is wrong besides him and those who follow his delirious ideology that every great civilisation in the world is Black.


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  Quote dmarniche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 23:20
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

Originally posted by dmarniche

Originally posted by goldenstar

 
 

Well said... Clap

 
Who are you to tell an African what he should do? 
 
He is as much 'African' as a Masai or an Igbo, so why are you using 'African' as if he isn't one? I'm asking you this because a couple pages ago you claimed the origins of the 'original' Berber people was close to the ancient Somali city of Berbera, which is such poor scholarship sister, please stop making such claims for Africa's sake!
  
 
 
First of all I didn't know or think he was African.  If he is an African that is a mistake of mine that I will acknowledge.  Personally I'm not sure if he wants to be African.  
 
  Lets not bring up scholarship on this site as there is little of it.  Also referring to info on few haplotypes and few blogs of pseudoanthropologist and sites like Wickipedia material is hardly anything to proclaim as scholarly.  
 
The "Berbers" like Sanhaja (I am not including those who have adopted Berber dialects)  were claimed to have come from the riff region of Abyssinia by AFricans and Arabs who spoke to them and the name Berber as used by the Greek writer of the Eritrean Sea. These people are called Tuarek. They came down from Numidia and Mauretania and were the Uakutameni Mauri Mazikes of the ancient documents who are also called "Ethiopians" in the Roman document I already mentioned on this site. 
 
They were undoubtedly of East African derivation although this was in a remote period. The term "Berber" referred originally to the area of Somalia in early Greek writings such as the Periplus of the Eritraeans Sea (see Huntingford).   This is not something I am claiming that is what the sources say.  If you do not want to believe what the ancient Berbers said about their own origins and what early sources said about the origin of the Berbers than you are apparently not interested in history. 
      Of the few true things the Mathilda blogger repeatedly states, one of them is that the Tuareg are of east African derivation.  It is the Tuareg that brought the Berber dialects to north Africa along with the camel and the Tifinagh letters.  It is from the ancestral Tuareg that the term Berber originally referred. For you to say "poor  scholarship" about something you are only vaguely familiar with - ancient historical sources - means that you have little historical retort.
    The indians were indeed called "Eastern Ethiopians" by Europeans and Eurasians (Armenians) because of their color.  As many on this site have stated the term "Ethiopians" referred to black people.  Is that also poor scholarship.
      The term is not an ethnic term as much as a color term as was the word "Mauri".  The following people were simultaneiously referred to as "Ethiopians" in European Greek/Roman documents at one time or another, -  the Colchians, the Indi, the Arabians, the Mauri (up until the Middle Ages in Europe), the gypsies who were often characterized as having black skins and kinky hair, the West and Central AFricans, the Berbers, the Nubians, the Abyssinians.  If you need some sources i can give you them , but understand the difference between scholarship and poor scholarship is related to research and documentation.   
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  Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 23:38
Originally posted by dmarniche

Who are you to tell an African what he should do?  I believe he can think for herself -  is that OK with you?   And don't project yourself onto me I'm an extreme historian who loves to tell it like they told it and not reinterpret direct quotes to prop up nationalistic hopes, "black", "white" or "whatever".


I didn't force him to follow my advise, but  only gave him my opinion of yourself as I already talked to you and came to the conclusion that you do not debate logically but only on the basis of your mythology.

I proved you wrong many times in earlier pages and you chose to leave instead to face your mistakes and contradictions.

I do not think you're a historian, perhaps a pseudo Afrocentrist historian though, not because of your Afrocentrist ideas but especially because your comparisons and conclusions about history are extremely poor, I proved it earlier.

First of all I didn't know or think he was African.  If he is an African that is a mistake of mine that I will acknowledge.  Personally I'm not sure if he wants to be African.


I am a North African.
 
The "Berbers" like Sanhaja (I am not including those who have adopted Berber dialects)  were claimed to have come from the riff region of Abyssinia by AFricans and Arabs who spoke to them and the name Berber as used by the Greek writer of the Eritrean Sea. These people are called Tuarek. They came down from Numidia and Mauretania and were the Uakutameni Mauri Mazikes of the ancient documents who are also called "Ethiopians" in the Roman document I already mentioned on this site. 
 
They were undoubtedly of East African derivation although this was in a remote period. The term "Berber" referred originally to the area of Somalia in early Greek writings such as the Periplus of the Eritraeans Sea (see Huntingford).


Greeks called Iberians people from the Caucasus mountains, while it is now used for the natives of Spain and Portugal.

For your information, Berber speakers do not call themselves Berber, an Arabic word coming from the Greek language, but Imazighen.

We are not Black, whether you like it or not, your delirium is just ridiculous for a so-called "historian"... LOL

I meant to say word Moor was not an African ethnic name. It is something that was applied to Africans and Arabs who looked a particular way by Europeans. Thus a Midieval European exclamation mentioned in Nature Knows No Color Line, "though the men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors for the great heat the sun. "


The term Moor is Latin and was applied to North Africans only, not to sub-Saharans, and existed since ancient times at the time of ancient Mauretania.

The name African originated from Northern Africans and was applied to sub-Saharans by Arabs and Europeans, you seem to be proud of it though, even if your ancestors did not identify with this label at the time they were enslaved and sent to Americas.

The name African was applied to the South of the continent only after the Middle-Ages.
 
Nationalism of any sort, including Somali nationalism, is not what history is based on.


Black or panAfrican nationalism is a recent invention and makes no sense, it is like an Asian nationalism including Japanese and Palestinian people together. Africans are varied and divided into thousands of ethnicities and thousands of tongues.

The Middle East is another European phrase projected on a particular geographic area for raciopolitical and "sociopolitical " purposes.  In ancient times these areas had different populations as skeletal evidence proves.


Wrong, the Middle-East is not entirely a British invention, this term is for a distinct region that calls itself "el sharq al awssat", meaning the Middle-East in Arabic. This region corresponding then to Egypt, Arabia, and the Ottoman and Persian Empires, already had a distinctive history and geography.

And the Arab Middle-East calls itself "el sharq el arabi", the Arab East, by contrast with "el maghreb al arabi", the Arab West, aka Maghreb.

“…the Arabs describe their color as black and they describe the color of the non-Arab Persians as red.” Assertion of 13th c. grammarian Ibn Manzur or Mandhur, in Lisaan al Arab, Vol. 4 (born in Tunis or northern  Egypt).

Red, in the speech of the people from Hejaz means fair-complexioned, and this color is rare amongst the Arabs.  This is the meaning of the saying … a red man as if he is one of the slaves.”  From Seyar A’laam al-Nubalaa, vol. 2, by the Syrian Al-Dhahabi (Thahabi),of the century 14th c. A.D.


So, Persians are different from their Arab neighboors...?   Confused


Persians VS Iraqi Arab neighboors










Persians VS Syrian Arab neighboors









Persians VS Saudi Arab neighboors









They don't look very different, they actually look the same in my eyes.



Black Americans






The Zuhra clan of Qureish also settled Saragossa. (see Taha) A member of the Banu Zuhra in Arabia named Saad ibn Waqqas is called very dark, “tall” and “flat-nosed” by El Dhahabi, of Syria. While Jahiz of Iraq (9th.c.) calls him black-skinned and huge.

 “…a fair-skinned Arab is something inconceivable… “  Ibn Abd Rabbu of Cordoba born 9thc. in El Iqd el Farid (The Precious Necklace), quoting Shuraik el-Qadi a 7th century Arab of the clan of Nakha’l of the Maddhij in the Yemen.


Most Arabs I know have the same nose as Europeans, and are either white or light brown skinned, it is rare they're dark brown. Some have straight hair, and some have curly hair as many Mediterraneans and Europeans.

I do not give much credibility to your sources I didn't even read, because it is clear you are not being rational and keep on flooding the forum with your irrational propaganda... Embarrassed




Edited by goldenstar - 23-Mar-2009 at 23:52
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  Quote dmarniche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 23:50
"Cranial research also demonstrates that Somalis have phenotypical similarities with countries like Norway but that doesn't make us in any way descendants of 'Vikings'(wouldn't mind though, they are coolTongue) or the original Vikings.  "
 
Why would you call the vikings cool? Now it seems your just trying to be accepted by your Eurocentred brethren.  I got news for you - since my grandfather was half Scottish American I'm sure his Viking ancestors would be happy to take you into their Valhalla in my place when your gone. I'll prefer to go elsewhere.  They weren't the most noble people. Say hi to the "black Danes" for me though.  (PS - Do like the Scottish accents and the history and heritage of the Bruce.)
 
The physical type of the Vikings is greatly distinguishable from those of people in east African countries regardless of the cranial similarities presently found between some Nordics and black -skinned Kenyans and peoples of the Horn -  Such families in Nordic countries as Coon points out were also only found in the area where" the Long Barrow so called Mediterranean" type was found. So- called "Nordics are" not predominantly dolichocephals like the Somali and other so called black Caucasoids.  As Coon and Isaac Asimov stated dolichocephalic peoples are "no where found on a regional basis in Europe", or for that matter among European looking people anywhere.   
 
 
As for your statement: "Omanis and Yemenis are legitimate ancient groups and not bastardised populations that descent from an ancient 'black race' that was overpowered by the oh so strong 'non-blacks' somewhere in antiquity."

Omanis and Yemenis are the descendants of amalgamation like everyone else on the fact of this earth who has lived in a confluence of civilization, including North AFricans, Europeans, Americans and West Africans.  That is what the genetic and the physical anthorpological evidence and the archeological and yes documented historical evidence  proves. It so happens that some groups were similar in appearance and origin while others were not.  Why do you think some Omanis and Yemenis look like Africans while others look like Iranians and Syrians, or people that look like a mix of these with Ethiopians/Somalis, etc. 

Many of the tribal groups of ancient Yemen were described by Iranians and Syrians.  Just as the Yemenis and Omanis of the ancient time claimed to be "black"  so did Iranians and Syrians describe the tribes coming from the Yemen as black.  Mohamed being patrilineally ancestral to some Somali clans has nothing to do with it.   The Ghassan, the Maddhij, the tirbes of the Tayyi and Murad (Qaran) and all of the tribes of Yemen are well described in documented histories.
 
I'm sorry that you've been so brainwashed by something that you can't imagine that most of the populations of pre-Islamic and early islamic Arabia were described as black, but that's on you. The early documenters were very elaborate and detailed in their descriptions of early Arabian peoples.
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  Quote dmarniche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 00:50
Originally posted by goldenstar

Originally posted by dmarniche

Who are you to tell an African what he should do?  I believe he can think for herself -  is that OK with you?   And don't project yourself onto me I'm an extreme historian who loves to tell it like they told it and not reinterpret direct quotes to prop up nationalistic hopes, "black", "white" or "whatever".


I didn't force him to follow my advise, but  only gave him my opinion of yourself as I already talked to you and came to the conclusion that you do not debate logically but only on the basis of your mythology.

I proved you wrong many times in earlier pages and you chose to leave instead to face your mistakes and contradictions.

I do not think you're a historian, perhaps a pseudo Afrocentrist historian though, not because of your Afrocentrist ideas but especially because your comparisons and conclusions about history are extremely poor, I proved it earlier.

First of all I didn't know or think he was African.  If he is an African that is a mistake of mine that I will acknowledge.  Personally I'm not sure if he wants to be African.


I am a North African.
 
The "Berbers" like Sanhaja (I am not including those who have adopted Berber dialects)  were claimed to have come from the riff region of Abyssinia by AFricans and Arabs who spoke to them and the name Berber as used by the Greek writer of the Eritrean Sea. These people are called Tuarek. They came down from Numidia and Mauretania and were the Uakutameni Mauri Mazikes of the ancient documents who are also called "Ethiopians" in the Roman document I already mentioned on this site. 
 
They were undoubtedly of East African derivation although this was in a remote period. The term "Berber" referred originally to the area of Somalia in early Greek writings such as the Periplus of the Eritraeans Sea (see Huntingford).


Greeks called Iberians people from the Caucasus mountains, while it is now used for the natives of Spain and Portugal.

For your information, Berber speakers do not call themselves Berber, an Arabic word coming from the Greek language, but Imazighen.

We are not Black, whether you like it or not, your delirium is just ridiculous for a so-called "historian"... LOL

I meant to say word Moor was not an African ethnic name. It is something that was applied to Africans and Arabs who looked a particular way by Europeans. Thus a Midieval European exclamation mentioned in Nature Knows No Color Line, "though the men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors for the great heat the sun. "


The term Moor is Latin and was applied to North Africans only, not to sub-Saharans, and existed since ancient times at the time of ancient Mauretania.

The name African originated from Northern Africans and was applied to sub-Saharans by Arabs and Europeans, you seem to be proud of it though, even if your ancestors did not identify with this label at the time they were enslaved and sent to Americas.

The name African was applied to the South of the continent only after the Middle-Ages.
 
Nationalism of any sort, including Somali nationalism, is not what history is based on.


Black or panAfrican nationalism is a recent invention and makes no sense, it is like an Asian nationalism including Japanese and Palestinian people together. Africans are varied and divided into thousands of ethnicities and thousands of tongues.

The Middle East is another European phrase projected on a particular geographic area for raciopolitical and "sociopolitical " purposes.  In ancient times these areas had different populations as skeletal evidence proves.


Wrong, the Middle-East is not entirely a British invention, this term is for a distinct region that calls itself "el sharq al awssat", meaning the Middle-East in Arabic. This region corresponding then to Egypt, Arabia, and the Ottoman and Persian Empires, already had a distinctive history and geography.

And the Arab Middle-East calls itself "el sharq el arabi", the Arab East, by contrast with "el maghreb al arabi", the Arab West, aka Maghreb.

“…the Arabs describe their color as black and they describe the color of the non-Arab Persians as red.” Assertion of 13th c. grammarian Ibn Manzur or Mandhur, in Lisaan al Arab, Vol. 4 (born in Tunis or northern  Egypt).

Red, in the speech of the people from Hejaz means fair-complexioned, and this color is rare amongst the Arabs.  This is the meaning of the saying … a red man as if he is one of the slaves.”  From Seyar A’laam al-Nubalaa, vol. 2, by the Syrian Al-Dhahabi (Thahabi),of the century 14th c. A.D.


So, Persians are different from their Arab neighboors...?   Confused


Persians VS Iraqi Arab neighboors










Persians VS Syrian Arab neighboors









Persians VS Saudi Arab neighboors









They don't look very different, they actually look the same in my eyes.



Black Americans






The Zuhra clan of Qureish also settled Saragossa. (see Taha) A member of the Banu Zuhra in Arabia named Saad ibn Waqqas is called very dark, “tall” and “flat-nosed” by El Dhahabi, of Syria. While Jahiz of Iraq (9th.c.) calls him black-skinned and huge.

 “…a fair-skinned Arab is something inconceivable… “  Ibn Abd Rabbu of Cordoba born 9thc. in El Iqd el Farid (The Precious Necklace), quoting Shuraik el-Qadi a 7th century Arab of the clan of Nakha’l of the Maddhij in the Yemen.


Most Arabs I know have the same nose as Europeans, and are either white or light brown skinned, it is rare they're dark brown. Some have straight hair, and some have curly hair as many Mediterraneans and Europeans.

I do not give much credibility to your sources I didn't even read, because it is clear you are not being rational and keep on flooding the forum with your irrational propaganda... Embarrassed


 
You obviously haven't also read most of my comments. Why would you talk about modern Arabs and Berbers which i have hardly made mention of in my blogs.  Is there some psychological disconnect somewhere, If so  i'm not ready to give therapy for it.
 
I have flooded the forum with directs quotes from Syrians, Arabs, Iranians and Europeans of all eras and origins all who have said the same thing with regard to the Arabs and Berbers. If you can not understand that there is a difference between modern and ancient than you are the irrational one.  Let me put it again modern Arabs ancient  Arabs.  Let me say it another way - modern Arabs / the original Arabs.  Does this compute?!
 
You have flooded the blog with photos of people who have little do with the Arab and Berber peoples that were spoken of by the Iraqis, Syrians, Iranians . 
 Berbers and Arabs conquered populations and populations adopted their dialects.  What scholar does not propound that ? how is that propoganda.  Would you like me to flood the site with photos of modern Arabians of Central Arabia and modern Tuareg, Nafusa Zaghawa Drawa, Siwa and for that matter the darker skinned Kabyles who the Europeans said predominated in the Kabyle area as late as the 19th century .   how will that prove anything unless one has it in the proper context.  
 
 
What people do you claim to be from? do you know even the names of the Berber tribes  that occupied the Kabyles.  Do you even know the names of the Berber tribes that were along the coast of North AFrica. Are you one of the many fair skinned Moroccan Berbers called Ghomara who claim descent from the Masmuda.   Which Berber are you?  To the extent that you have haplotypes related to Eurasians and Europeans is the extent that you are not Berber.  This is not to say you don't have Berber blood. None-the-less the Beriberi who were in fact the Imazighen  according to all accounts or "the Mazikes" of the ancient Mauretania and Tripolitania were a very dark -skinned people who were as i have stated now twice designated as "Ethiopians" in Roman documents!!  The fact that fair-skinned people have occupied north Africa since the iron age as protoGreeks and Scythians and later came  Alans, Vandals, slaves and Turks, does not in any way mean they are related to Paleolithic Eurasian peoples of North Africa.  Is there a single source that says people that looked like these people were called before recent European colonials "Imoshagh" or 'Amazigh' feel free to show me.   Oh that 's right -  you don't believe in documented history!
 
, although some of the paleaolithic skeletons of Taforalt as at Cyprus do show Eurasiatic affinities both osteologically and in more contemporary genetic study, there is certainly no archeological evidence for an of association with Paleolithic peoples Eurasian with iron age peoples.  Although there is plenty of evidence the Iber Maurusian dolichophals were directly ancestral to Capsian and then Neolithic Saharan folk.  
 
Now I am very tired of repeating what ancient writers said and being called "fanatic" and "Afro-centric" for it, so as the Quran which i don't normally like to repeat says (just because i don't know enough about it ) "do not argue with fools" - I will take this advice and finish my nearly completed  site onf Afro-Asiatics based on linguistics,  archeology, genetics, and the many historical documents which you have deemed useless to consider.   
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  Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 00:52
Dear lord I call the Vikings cool and the afrocentric reactionary hammer is immediately thrown in my direction ''are you trying to be accepted by your Eurocentric brethren'' lmao how lame is that? I think Tang soldiers are the coolest soldiers of the ancient world, am i now also trying to accepted by my Sinocentric brethren lol 
 
The presence of ancient Berbers in North Africa(who looked no different from the ones we see today) pre-dates Ancient Egypt/Pre-dynastic Egypt/Proto-pre-dynastic Egypt, matter fact it predates writing, so the use of Fifth century BC or 2nd c. AD chronicles is like me using today's Daily telegraph as a reference to events in the 16th century. Everybody is ultimately of East African derivation as this region is said to be the place where humans originated. If your tying Berbers to Somalia based on that fact then you have to tie Europe and Asia and the rest of the world to East Africa aswell.

The camel wasn't introduced to Egypt and the rest of North Africa by Tuaregs migrating from East Africa. The two humped Camel was first domesticated in Southern Arabia and then imported to Somalia where it was domesticated in 2500 BC from where it afterwards spread to Egypt and North Africa.[1](The one humped camel predates this phenomena for several millenia's as we can see from ancient rock paintings in Somalia that depict one humped camels) There is no evidence to suggest that the Tuaregs ever lived in Somalia or the Horn of Africa in general (in the timeperiod your speaking of.) so your wrong!.

The old world(excl. the Americas) is predominantly the same as it was in ancient times. Modern Egyptians are the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians, modern Omanis and Yemenis are the direct descendants of ancient groups in the Arabian peninsula and not bastardized populations. Modern Georgians are not descendants of people with wooly hair nor was there ever a population that resembled S.S Africans present there. The berbers of today are a legitimate ancient group who have lived in North Africa since time immemorial, there is no need to look for them elsewhere!.

This was my last reply to you!  

[1] - The camel was first domesticated in Southern Arabia, the camel subsequently spread to Somalia between 2500 and 1500 BC, and then northward and across to Egypt in the first millennium BC - The Oxford companion to archaeology By Brian M. Fagan, Charlotte Beck pg 115

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  Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 00:59
Originally posted by goldenstar

Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

^I got it the first timeLOL
 

Basically your trying to counter fire with some more fire, which is futile. Why would you dismiss genetics and linguistics for ancient 'dubious' claims made by armchair writers who usually compiled their works from the comfort of their Kingdom/Empire's libraries? Cranial research also demonstrates that Somalis have phenotypical similarities with countries like Norway but that doesn't make us in any way descendants of 'Vikings'(wouldn't mind though, they are coolTongue) or the original Vikings. Omanis and Yemenis are legitimate ancient groups and not bastardised populations that descent from an ancient 'black race' that was overpowered by the oh so strong 'non-blacks' somewhere in antiquity.Dead

Salaam/Greetings/Thallah!Sleepy
   


You're wasting your time, he is  a fanatic and is convinced that everyone is wrong besides him and those who follow his delirious ideology that every great civilisation in the world is Black.


 
It's a 'she' but I agree! I don't see the point in continuing this topic because it's repetative, maybe it's time a mod locked it for good!
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  Quote dmarniche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 01:33
[QUOTE=Prince of Zeila]
"Dear lord I call the Vikings cool and the afrocentric reactionary hammer is immediately thrown in my direction ''are you trying to be accepted by your Eurocentric brethren'' lmao how lame is that? I think Tang soldiers are the coolest soldiers of the ancient world, am i now also trying to accepted by my Sinocentric brethren lol  "
 
Just because you are Prince doesn't make me Lord , I should think warlordess more desirable, except no soldiers are "cool" for me. They just kill people.   Sorry if you were offended.  Maybe I should not have mentioned "accepted". 
 
Quoting Prince -
The presence of ancient Berbers in North Africa(who looked no different from the ones we see today) pre-dates Ancient Egypt/Pre-dynastic Egypt/Proto-pre-dynastic Egypt, matter fact it predates writing, so the use of Fifth century BC or 2nd c. AD chronicles is like me using today's Daily telegraph as a reference to events in the 16th century. Everybody is ultimately of East African derivation as this region is said to be the place where humans originated. If your tying Berbers to Somalia based on that fact then you have to tie Europe and Asia and the rest of the world to East Africa aswell. " 
 
Skeletons don't lie and Berbers (the Tuareg) are tied to Somalia in their own traditions and the rif region of Abyssinia.  The Berbers "we see today" are still mostly dark in color and those are likely the ones that haven't mixed as much with peoples who came from outside of Africa, as all Berbers were referred to as dark and black in color originally.   
 
Quoting Prince
"The camel wasn't introduced to Egypt and the rest of North Africa by Tuaregs migrating from East Africa. The two humped Camel was first domesticated in Southern Arabia and then imported to Somalia where it was domesticated in 2500 BC from where it afterwards spread to Egypt and North Africa.[1](The one humped camel predates this phenomena for several millenia's as we can see from ancient rock paintings in Somalia that depict one humped camels) There is no evidence to suggest that the Tuaregs ever lived in Somalia or the Horn of Africa in general (in the timeperiod your speaking of.) so your wrong!. " 
 
Your scholarly quote (finally!) about the camel helps support the traditional origins of the Tuareg who had pruportedly come from the Yemen in that time period and settled in Abyssinia and the horn at a remote period before spreading to North Africa and the Maghreb and "forming 600 tribes of Sabaeans".  Wish you had contributed more scholarly info to your argument against black Berbers. El Idrisi said men of Zeila wore the veil in his time. (See Bornu Sahara and Sudan, Richmond Palmer) This means Tuareg were still spread from the Red Sea in the 11th century.. 
 
Quoting -Prince
"The old world(excl. the Americas) is predominantly the same as it was in ancient times. Modern Egyptians are the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians, modern Omanis and Yemenis are the direct descendants of ancient groups in the Arabian peninsula and not bastardized populations. Modern Georgians are not descendants of people with wooly hair nor was there ever a population that resembled S.S Africans present there. The berbers of today are a legitimate ancient group who have lived in North Africa since time immemorial, there is no need to look for them elsewhere!."
 
Is that your opinion?
 
This was my last reply to you!
 I never asked you for a reply but would be happy to receive it especially if you can provide more support of the claims of the Tuareg or Berber origins. Good luck.
 
Quote - Prince of Zeila
[1] - The camel was first domesticated in Southern Arabia, the camel subsequently spread to Somalia between 2500 and 1500 BC, and then northward and across to Egypt in the first millennium BC - The Oxford companion to archaeology By Brian M. Fagan, Charlotte Beck pg 115
 
Can't remember if the following was posted or not.  Sorry if it was.

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The Appearance of the Original Berbers According to European Perceptions

 

    All the early major Berber tribes including the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama Zenata and Nafusa are described as dark reddish brown like the “Indi’ or as “blacks” or Ethiopians in early documents. The notion of the early Berbers as being “whites” or Caucasoid is a new and racist one related to the concept of the African “Hamite”. Certainly the original Berber-speakers were never referred to as anything but “black” or something near it until the 12th century and were otherwise considered the color of Abyssinians and other so called “Indi”. 

       Even the Kabyles a notoriously fair-skinned “Berber” people of North Africa are up until the 19th century described as “brown” "apart from a few clans". (See quotes below). The knowledge that Europeans were changing the complexion literally and figuratively of North Africa up until the 19th century has disappeared from modern European histories. Most know about the large part played by sub-saharan black slaves in the making of modern North Africa and Arabia while the white slave trade which was in fact dominant trade in North Africa until the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey) in the 15th century had been largely ignored in historical writings of the 20th. Yet it was only a few centuries ago that Europeans visiting North Africa commenting on the fact that,  “on almost every street of the cities of Barbary, Europeans could be seen harnessed to carts like draught horses or selling water from jars loaded on the backs of donkeys”.

 

1809 Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer: “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “   from An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by  J. G.  Jackson published 1809 and 1814.

 

2003 -  “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See,  Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800,  MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.

   

       The impact of the white slave trade and its contribution to the modern biology and appearance of the modern North African stems from before the Arabian and Muslim waves into Africa. The Roman ruler Claudian spoke concerning Gildo, the “Moorish” ruler of Africa and treatment of Roman women from the Levant by this North African chief and his countrymen:

 

4th century -   Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians.  He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband.  The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.”  Claudian,  by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, Published by G.P. Putnam's sons, 1922 p. 113.  (Gildo was brother to other Berber chiefs Firmus and Maseczel. Gildo is related to Aguellid or Galdi which remains the modern Tuarek word for chief. Masek, Amazigh ot Imoshagh was the name for the ancient and modern Tuareg clans in general. The Mezikes tribes were called “Ethiopians” in a Roman text of the time. )

 

1stt c. A.D. - “Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles a Sardinian general, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan ),who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” , p. 50  The Mediterranean Race  Book XX, 38, 57  Guiseppe  Sergi, 1901.  The Micatani were also called Ukutameni and Khethim by Josephus. In later writings they are called Ketama Berbers.  The name Maketa or Imakitan remains a name for the eastern branches of the Tuareg.

 

1st century A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” in one of his Satires, and the phrase was commonly used up until the Middle Ages. See Nature Knows No Color Line  by  J.A. Rogers, 1952. p. 50 The Muslim era didn’t begin until the birth of Muhammed, the Prophet, over four centuries after Martial. By the 7th century the word came to be used for Arabians who in the early era of Islam for the most part were also described as of  near “black”  complexion. 

 

1st century Silius  Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black. In the 3rd century Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus maintained the name Maure was a synonym for “Niger” which was a common term for the word black. 6th century Isidore Archbishop of Seville claimed the word Maure meant black according to Brunson and Runoko Rashidi in “The Moors in Antiquity” in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991.

 

6th A.D.- Corippus uses the phrase “facies nigroque colorus”  meaning faces or appearance of black color to describe the North African Berbers. In his book Johannis,  I/ 245.

 

6th A.D. - Procopius  in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting the Germanic Vandals who had settled in North Africa with the Maures claimed the Vandals  were not  “black skinned like the Maurusioi” . The tribes he classified as Maurusioi are those called  the Numidians, Masaesyle, Gaitules, Massyles and Mezikes several other “Berber” tribes then settled between Tunisia and Morocco. 

 

     After the 8th century the term Moor came to be used for the many Arabian clans who had invaded the Mediterranean and Africa because of their complexions which were the same dark brown or near black to absolutely black color of the Berbers.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1914 -  Archeologists observance of the ancient North Africans portrayed in ancient Egyptian tomb paintings, “The brun Libyan type is the only one portrayed in the Old Empire, the xanthrochroids predominate in the New Empire representations.” P. 40   from The Eastern Libyan Oric Bates  The intrusive xanthrochroids…do not appear before the XII dynasty… It safe to say that they were immigrants.”   from The Eastern Libyans by Oric Bates Frank Cass publishers  1914. pp. 40 and 41. (These paintings of the ancient Libyans as a brown in color are in the works of Nina Davies.)

 

1939 -  “The extreme long-heads, concentrated in the Hoggar and in parts of the Algerian plateau are the Tuareg and the purer families of ancestral nomadic Berbers, preserving the head form which they brought from East Africa, their Hamitic homeland.”  Carleton Coon The Races of Europe, p. 257  1979 reprint.

 

Five major tribes of Berbers were spoken of by early Muslim writers including the Sanhaja, Masumuda Zenata, Ketama and Goddula which were categorized into dozens of others which in turn were divided into many more. Among them were the early Kabyles originally a group of Sanhaja Berbers. Most descriptions refer to the modern Kabyles as fair-skinned, but in the 19th century and early 20th, descriptions and in fact many photographs depict them as  dark and near black. (Photos from the 19th century show both very dark-skinned and near white skinned Kabyle individuals from different villages in the region).

 

1890 - “The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica:  Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature  Henry G. Allen Company  p. 261 Volume I 1890. 

 

1834 The Scotsman Thomas Campbell says, “The Kabyles…dress like the Arabs and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired”  p. 109 Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century, Ann Thomson. Published  1987 by E. J. Bull   

 

1895 “As to whether these Berbers, one branch of whom conquered Spain, came from the Aborigines, who were of mixed races, or were lineal descendants of the Numidians, authorities differ. To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible?” Chapter XV Algerian Memories: A Bicycle Tour over the Atlas to the Sahara. By Fanny B. Workman London, 1895. 

 

Will the real kabyle please stand up? A description by Gillebert d’Hercourt  in Etudes Anthropologiques sur Soixante-Seize indigenes de lAlgerie in 1865 said the Kabyle crania  that were studied were generally dolichocephalic. In fact the physical anthropological studies done on ancient and modern North Africans show that early North Africans were dolichocephalic like the Tuareg and other dark-skinned berber tribes.

      Not surprisingly most modern Berber-speakers who are fair skinned including modern Kabyles are predominantly mesocephalic (middle headed) or even brachycephalic.  It is interesting that the dress of these modern Kabyle women resembles that modern women of the Balkans and that pottery palm and blood group types are also like those of European Mediterranean Greeks. Many of these Kabyles also have a strong Turkish influence as judged from the recognizable Turkish Eurasian or even East Asian facial features. Obviously some groups other than a Berber one makes up the main genetic strain in many modern Kabyle-speakers. Culturally the modern fair-skinned Kabyles have been documented as among the most patrifocal people in North Africa whereas the ancient and modern Berbers like the Tuareg were notably matrilineal and matrifocal to the chagrin of early Muslim documenters who considered this among their ‘wicked” customs.

 

1901 - The Oases if Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus  as “of very dark complexion”  in Guiseppi Sergi  The Mediterranean Race: The Study of the origin of European peoples  The Walter Scott Publishing Company 

 

 

On the Libyo Berbers called  - Gaetules  or Jeddala

The Gaitules were the most populous of the Libyan tribes of Strabo's time (1st century AD).  Josephus claimed they were descended from Havilah or the Avalioi who he says children of Kush child of Ham.

 

1st -2nd century - Juvenal, the Roman writer in his Satire V. 53  referred to “a Gaetulian, as a black a Moor “so black you’d rather not see him at midnight”.. Found in Madan’s translation of Juvenal, vol. I by  J. Vincent published at Oxford. 

 

     Among the Gaetules were a tribe Dari or Darae Gaetuli, there was also a stream called Daradae Ethiopus  (DARAE were a Gaetulian tribe in the W. of Africa, on a mountain stream called Dara, on the S. steppes of M. Atlas, adjacent to the Pharusii. (Plin. V. 1: Oros. i. 2: Leo Afr. P. 602.)

     The Draa (Arabic: درأ) (also spelled Dra or Draâ, in older sources mostly Darha or Dara) is Morocco's longest river (1100 km).  “The inhabitants of the Draa are called Draawa (an exonym), the most famous Draawi undoubtedly being mawlay Mohammed ash-Sheikh. Outside of the Draa region this name is mostly used to refer to the dark skinned people of Draa which make up the largest portion of its inhabitants.”  Retrieved May 13th 2008 from 

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Draa-river

 

 

Descriptions of  the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama, Zenata Berbers of  coastal North Africa and the Upper Atlas

 

Most Arab-speaking historians beginning as far back as the 8th century when Wah ibn Munabihh a South Arabian and descendant of an Iranian mercenary claimed the Berbers belonged to black races of Ham.  Several Muslim  writers claimed the Berbers were the sons of Berr who were said to descend from Mazigh ibn (son of ) Canaan Ibn Ham Ibn Nuh (Noah). The tradition found cited in Nafousa: Berber Community in Western Libya,  Omar Sahli citing Dabbuz.   Retrieved on-line from http://www.tawalt.com/monthly/fessato_1.pdf , July. 12, 2008.

     The Zenata are called a Canaanite race by other Muslim writers see ‘The Berbers” Geo. Babington Michell, Journal of the Royal African Society, Vol. 2, No. 6 (Jan., 1903), pp. 161-194.   The traditions state that in fact Berbers were descendants of Amalekites (Amalek) from Canaan and Himyarite from Yemen both descendants of “Adites” that had invaded Egypt before 1200 B.C. and “advanced toward the Maghreb”.   

     The Berbers as represented by the Tuareg especially appear to have called themselves Mashek or Mazigh who are associated with bringing the camel into Africa. Mashek is still the name of a tribe of the Mahra of Oman and Hadramaut who also claim an origin in the Yemen.

    ( In early Arabian tradition the lowland of Canaan or the Kenaniyya tribe was in an area of the western region of Arabia north of Yemen and not farther to the north in modern Palestine or Israel. See the Bible Came from Arabia. Kamal Salibi )

 

11th century -  Ibn Butlan of Iraq wrote, “quoteThe Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. unquote“  11th century the Christian Iraqi physician  Ibn Butlan quoted by  historian Bernard Lewis.    

 

11th century  - Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.  See Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094",  International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342. 

 

13th century – Primary Cronica General of Alphonso X of Spain describes the 300  Almoravid “Amazon” women whose leader is described as black and Moorish. They were “led by  their leader Nugaymath al-Tarqiyya (the “star of the Tuareg archers” in Arabic) who led the Almoravid siege of Valencia”; cited in Nubian Queens in the Nile Valley by Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, Ninth International Conference of Nubian Studies, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, USA. See also  The Berbers in Arab Literature  by H.T. Norris 1982.p. 20.  Harvey , L.P.  “Nugaymath Turquia,  Primera Cronica General, Chapter 956”   Journal of Semitic Studies 13, no. 2:232.  Targiyyat or Targiya is a variant form or pronunciation in North Africa for the name Tuareg. 13th or 14th century Abu Shama, a Syrian, described the Masmuda Berbers as “blacks”  in his, Kitab al-Ravdatayn. Found in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991 edition p. 57, edited by Dr. Ivan Van Sertima. 

 

14th –  The Almoravid or Al Murabitun dynasty coming from the Atlas was one of the last dynasties coming from Africa to rule in the Iberian peninsula. One of the 11th century rulers of Andalusia and North Africa was Yusuf Tachfin who had come from a long line of miltary rulers. According to "Roudh el-Kartas" (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier's French translation of the 14th century work, Yusuf was of  “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice”  and  “woolly hair”. The Almoravid dynasty was supposedly composed mainly of Sanhaja clans of Massufa, Joddala (Gaetuli) and Lamtuna (or Auelimidden Tuareg)- the Auelamidden have since moved southward and live in Niger.

 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 02:09
Originally posted by goldenstar

...
You're wasting your time, he is  a fanatic and is convinced that everyone is wrong besides him and those who follow his delirious ideology that every great civilisation in the world is Black.


 
Of course. The buddy is an Afrocentrist that follow the irrational school of Diop and Malcom X.


Edited by pinguin - 24-Mar-2009 at 02:11
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  Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 07:39
Originally posted by goldenstar


You did not say the Carthaginian Empire, you said Carthage, which first refers to the city itself (as Rome VS the Roman Empire or Republic), founded in the 800s B.C not in the 500s B.C. Be specific next time.



First of all I wasn't talkin to you,for some strange reason you have a habit of taking other non-related interest to your liking when it doesn't involve you,i e Sub -Saharan West Africa and East Afrca poltical forces,Black Sudans, etc. 



Originally posted by goldenstar


By the way, this is funny that now you googled and finally confirmed what I taught you before, you first implied Carthage became a big state ruled by Dido as soon as the small city of Carthage was created, until I taught you it evolved into a powerful empire only centuries after her death. You are now using my knowledge to try to make a point with Pinguin, funny... Embarrassed

Finally, your source is not clearly reliable, the link leads to an obscure website I did not understand the meaning.


What can be certain is that Phoenicians founded the city of Carthage by Queen Elissa(Queen Dido).Do not try and twist my words, I said the the Phoencians built the city of Carthage, I never said it wasn't you implied it was started by the Berbers which is untrue,it was started by an outside entity.You didn't say anything to that matter.




Originally posted by goldenstar

Am I Pinguin? I am not him, so just ask him directly what he meant instead to justify.


Then why answer for Pinguin then?Embarrassed You choose to intervene and answer incorrectly,you should've listened to what I said and get the your views in proper perspective.Ouch


Originally posted by goldenstar


Even if I am not Pinguin, we share a common and universal way to think unlike Afrocentrists, and thus I think he implied Carthage as a city and then an empire was founded centuries before the West African states existed, and the source I showed told Carthaginians have had some trade ties with the locals.


Why do you choose to defend another man,Shockedthen you say I am not Pinguin but you choose to put words in his mouth as well.Embarrassed

Now to say the Carthagenians influenced the Pre-West African States,is incorrect because you have no proof. The Carthagenians occupied the Coast of North Africa and the Southern interior of the Sahara was occupied by Nomadic Berbers.
Embarrassed

Originally posted by goldenstar


Since you're intellectually dishonest, you are focusing on Pinguin's small mistake


I thought you said you weren't Pinguin,why are you still talking for him are you his squire.LOLLOL


Originally posted by goldenstar


about the exact date of the creation of Carthage, in order to make him forget that even the official date you gave for the creation of Carthage's empire, 575 B.C according to you, is almost a millennium before the creation of the early structures of what became later the empire Ghana.


Im not sure what your saying but as I said before there is no proof that the Carthaginian civilization influenced the Pre-Ghana civilzation.


Originally posted by goldenstar


There were the Carthaginian empire and other Maghrebi countries such as ancient Mauretania and Numidia, the tribes of the Getules, the  Garamantes, which were all existing long before


Of course the Garamentians and Numidians existed before  but Numdians only became advanced after their overlordship of Phoenicians and so did other Berber tribes.So if the Berber settlements were only small encampments and  towns and in your opinon considered advanced then so are the Soninke settlements since they existed before.


I think you're slightly wrong, not me, because I never said the exact date was the 800s, historians do not exactly know the date of the creation of Carthage or Rome but they show aproximate periods, and the most accepted theory for Carthage is the end of 9th century B.C as I said and as your own source says.


Originally posted by goldenstar



Carthage was founded in the end of the 800s B.C, about 300 years before the date you put up...


Contradiction must be your greatest virtueLOL, you said it was founded in the 800s bce but they're some speculation it was settled maybe as a camp or settlement some time prior to the 800sbce.But what we know is that Carthage along ,Tingus,Uitica,and Byblos have always been influential throughout the Phoenician civilzation but after 575 bc when the Assyrians captured the Eastern Cities such as Tyre. Carthage became  the leadering force for Punic states.

So if technically the Carthaginians empire would have been more influential  575 bce,but there is no evidence of the Berbers creating West African states.


But your statement says they are mostly concentrated in the towards the coast of the North Africa


Originally posted by goldenstar


And? There are still millions of people in the South, Tuaregs and modern Moors.


And the Tuaregs are an admixture of Sub-Saharan and Berber ancestry,so whos to say the Tuaregs are pure Berbers,even if you would attempt to babbe on about who they identify with Maghreb Arab,the fact is that there Berbers living South of the Sahara with black ancestry.LOL


you did say the Berbers and Maghrebs wanted no part of Sub Saharan history



Originally posted by goldenstar


I was referring to modern Northerners, they have absolutely nothing to do with sub-Saharans, I was not referring to Southern desert Berbers,





We'll you implied it,you should be more specific at times, I think you chose to change your position on your opinionated views quite often.First you say the Berbers want no part of Sub-Saharan history then you say the Southern Berbers are part of the History make up your mind.
 
Originally posted by goldenstar


who clearly came in contact with sub-Saharans and mixed with them for millenia, which is why there are now so many pure Blacks or half-Blacks among them.


Right so who's to say the so called mixed Berbers,created the Sub Saharan civilization they obviously have both histories if the have both Berber and Sub-Saharan ancestryBig smile.Besides the point that the Ghana civilzation were purely African made by the Soninke.


Originally posted by goldenstar


And for your information, such populations are not directly related to Northern Maghrebis, who are extremely different, in the sense of not related to the same degree as Northern Maghrebis are to each other, because they had a different history in the South thousands of miles away, influenced by their trips and life in the desert and in sub-Saharan Africa. Something that is very different from the geography and history of the Mediterranean and the Atlas mountains.



Tuareg, indigenous people of the Sahara. They speak a Berber language, Tamarshak, and have their own alphabet. In ancient times, the Tuareg controlled the trans-Sahara caravan routes, taxing the goods they helped to convey and raiding neighbouring peoples.

http://uk.encarta.msn-ppe.com/encyclopedia_761552864/Tuareg.html







I never said all Arab Moors were nomads, and the Tuaregs were semi-nomadic and etablished plenty of settlements and towns. You simply have no knowledge of the region you just discovered these days while debating on this forum in a desperate attempt to win by resistance instead of reasoning. Timbuctu was one of the most important cities of West Africa, it was founded by the Berber Tuaregs themselves and then became an important Black city.


I said the the Southern Berbers roamed as Nomads most of the time,for some strange reason the founding of Timboukto was founded after the pinnacle of the Ghana Empire and for some strange reason it is found on the portal of the Sahara and Ghana Empire.


Timbouctou seems to be a portal to for the Ghana empire and the Sahran Tuareg trders,it is said it flourished because of flourishing merchant trade.

Hundreds of years ago, however, that oasis was an important crossroads for caravans from the desert

Founded c. AD 1100 by Tuareg nomads, it became an important post on the trans-Saharan caravan routes. After it was incorporated within the Mali empire, probably in the late 13th

hmm so not was it only founded after the 11thAd at the height of the Ghana empire,but it flourished from it being a crossroad for Nomadic Caravans. it was however incorperated into the Mali empire in the 13th cent AD.


We owe the name to the Tuareg people who founded the town in about 1100. They spoke a language known as Timbuktu Tamasheq, still used by about a quarter of a million people in Mali.


http://www.answers.com/topic/timbuktu

More importanatly the Tuareg were Half Black and Berber and it was major crossroad in the South Sahara and more famous than the oasis of the North.









 (Southern Berbers and Mauritania's Arab Moors), just like Sudan and the Horn of Africa with Egypt and the Arabian peninsula... Embarrassed


I have given you all the names, you choose to believe what you will.ClapCan you name an indegenous North Afrcan empire,other than the Phoenican Carthaginians,Romanized Numidians,Vandalic North Africans,Byzntanium Vassals,Islamic Maghreb,and European Colonizers.Ouch

The proof is there ,its been said that Aksum is a creation of Aksumites(Ethiopians). And so is D'mt the language of Ge'ez was spoken long before the cohabitation of both Sabeans and Pre-D'mt inhabitants the Ge'ez language was made in the Tigraynia and Eritean region.


Originally posted by goldenstar

You lie and try to change your version as usual when you are trapped and finally understand how senseless and folish your statements sound. You first said North Africans are black sub-Saharans who migrated to the North and then adapted black skin by mutating...


Originally posted by AksumVanguard

I didn't say that go back and look at exactly what I said






By the Way Eurasia is  part East Africa, and yes  e3b is  in east Africa,and no I'm not saying that east africans should stake a claim to berber culture or are connected Im saying get you need to study about genetics a little more,and understand basic realities.


http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22762&PN=16


Originally posted by goldenstar


You first said North Africans are black sub-Saharans who migrated to the North and then adapted black skin by mutating...since you thought about how foolish and senseless you sounded in the eyes of other posters you're now lying and changing your version...


Well it is obvious,where do you suggest the North African phenotype came from,Confused people have only hypothesized that the EB3 mutated in the Levant.Where do you suggest the e3b gene orginatef because all scientist lean towards East Africa,are you mad that you would rather be called Caucasian,because your genetics prove otherwise.All humans orginate from Africa but you would rather here that you were Caucasian,Semitic who migrated back to Africa and settled in that region.But you are a Moor,and Moors have never been black Big smile
but some 10000 to 20000 years ago you did look different,but that doesn't change Moorish culture,why are you so scared of that.Confused


Originally posted by goldenstar


You also said Eurasia is East Africa, which is an other face of your delirium... LOL



Eurasia sometimes includes  the Horn of Africa also called Afro-Eurasia,but lets focus on where  the e3b gene is found.

Heres what the ancient greeks called it

"The ancient Greeks knew that the earth was round. But for them the world and the globe were not synonymous. The world was an "island world," a conjuncture of Europe, Asia, and Africa. This Afro-Eurasian land mass centered on the Mediterranean."

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/courses/teachers_corner/40010.html

Originally posted by goldenstar


By the way, you always said Eb3 was sub-Saharan to conclude North Africans are Blacks who mutated, but in its article of genetic history of Europe your beloved Wikipedia mentions Eb3 moved along the coast of Europe as I said earlier, do you have a source telling it is really a sub-Saharan thing?


What hogwash  most people in the Middle east have the J1 or J2  marker.Don't forget the the E halpogroup coming from e3b is 10000 years younger than e3a,how did it transmutate from J1 to E3B are you going backwards.

See, you gave up for the Senegalese population and now you just admit this


ConfusedWhere not talking about Senegalese,were does that come from? You say the Non-black Egyptians started the civilzation of Kerma but you have no proof of Egypt being tottally north African.

Even at the Archeaology sites of Nabata Playa,they agree that the Pre nubians and early Egyptians are of the same culture and anthropologic bone structure,and the Negroids have always occupied the Sudan.

 

you who are mixed with Semitic genes left in Ethiopia and found in North-Africa too, not us with sub-Saharans. Just because Somalians mixed with a few Egyptians, it doesn't mean Egyptians who are in Egypt are related to Somalians, otherwise Blacks from the Carribeans and Americas are related to Europeans.


Your wrong because the e3b gene is prominent in East Africa.If it orginated in the Middle East it will be the most common  trait there.Not to mention the different polymorphism phases  it underwent,Ouchso scientist know that by the time humans left out afrca and went to  the Levant the Eb3 halpogroup gene morphed and mutated to  the different markers.The halpogroup then c  came back to the East Africa.But this is only in theory because the gene seems to be already prominent in East Africa.But  you do know the J1 is most prominet in the Middle East, how do you explain the J1 is most prominent halpogroup there.J1 comes down the line a little longer.


I may be a South American I still know the history of West Africa (which is more related to Maghreb in term of history than to East Africa), something you ignore totally.


Why would you want to know west African history, I thought that has nothing to do with you it seems you want to be part of it.Cry



There are Blacks living in Algeria too, noone cares, it is a minority.



Not at the same rate as Maurentania,they are both moor and black,and are not exactly minorities.


Not surprising, you're not courageous enough to say your nationality or original nationality... Tongue


I am not foolish enough to answer nosy questions,which don't concern you who always seem to be nosy. But as I told you I am part  East Indian,Part East Afrcan and West African descent so I can observe both cultures if I choose.I don't tell my exact location over the Net or my identity.


Jealous of the "civilisations" of sub-Saharan Africa LOLLLLLL

The point is the capital city of the ancient empire of Ghana is in an Arabic country, Mauritania, and its heritage belongs to Mauritanians, whether you like it or not.



The Anazazi which lived in Mexico,New Mexico,Arizona, and the rest of the Southwestern of the United States are now home to mostly Americans of European ancestry,doesn't mean they could stake claim to the Anasazi history.

So you are wrong to say that the Ghana heritage belongs to Maurantania,just because its located there,when it clearly states by Maghreb Historians  it was started  by Mande' people.






I didn't understand what you said. Again, your beloved source says Southern Berbers started the Songhai empire, the most powerful Black empire of its time, and your own source says Ghana was originally the state of Awkar started by Southern Berbers and later taken over by the sub-Saharan Soninke.



The Ghana Empire is believed by many to have been a continuation of the cultural complex at Tichitt-walata attributed to Mandé people known as the Soninke. Subsequent incursions of Berber tribes, however, collapsed the earlier socio-political organization in the region and established small settlements in the area known as Awkar, around the middle of the fourth century. Around 750 or 800 AD however, the Soninke adjusted and united under Majan Dyabe Cisse or Dinga Cisse in taking over Awkar.[1][2]


The earliest creation of civilzation in the Ghana region was Tichitt-walata,
now when the Soninke booted the Berbers from establishing the miniscule Awkar  resulting in Berbers settleing  elsewhere.But there was already a Socio structure there with before Awkar called Tichitti


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire#Origin



You are just confirming what I said earlier, there was a "civilisation" until Southern Berbers came and destroyed its structures totally, and imposed their own culturally "superior" civilisation, which was then followed by the Black Soninke who took over Awkar from Southern Berbers, ruling a kingdom which became the model for all the following Sahelian states.


I wonder why if they were established there, why didn't they send for reinforcemnets from neighboring cities, the Ghana civilzation was created by Soninke.Big smile It would seem a bit strange when the Maghrebs adapt foreign civilizations rather than initiating the Sahelian civilzations foreign to their native land Ouch

Not to mention the Tuaregs who border the region are of black ancestry.





Now I would say the Berbers got their hinds kicked back to the Sahara.


The heartland of the empire of Ghana was actually based in the Sahara, you are not paying attention. Koumbi Saleh the capital of Ghana is Sub-Sahran africa, I think you need to do better obsering




The Soninke had no real technology, and lived off local natural ressources they sold to Northerners in exchange of manufactured goods and real refined products... LOL

 Yea trade it for salt,I wonderwhy if the Soninke had no technology were they able to defeat the BERBERS at Akwar.


I still didn't understand what you meant, you implied since Arab geographers mentioned the empire of Ghana existed it means it was Blacks who created it, how is that, can you explain this logic?

Where do they state that Berbers created when you get it straight from the horses mouth.Wink


I am not an Arabocentrist (you were looking for this term for a while, it's a present), and I have nothing to benefit in stealing a lower sub-Saharan history (lower in term of prestigiousness and accomplishments)


You are North-Afro Centrist because you use their same tactics to redefine history as with the Sudanese and Ghana Empire.

I wonder what history are you talking about, the Phoeneican Carthaginians, to the Arab Ummayads have always found an oppurtunity to take advantage of the primitive Maghreb society.You say you gladly accepted the New Islam religion I think the Maghrebs were in need of Overlords as they have been throughout history.


But the fact is the civilisations of sub-Saharan Africa have emerged partly


You have yet to give proof, you also call Sudanese Arabs when they are clearly of black descent you crave to be apart of that history.LOL People also try to claim Mutapa as an East Asian creation.



Meaning you used Wikipedia, that's the point, and since you think it is a reliable source then accept it when I post it.

And that's wrong again, you used many other websites that based their articles on those of Wikipedia.


I gave way more sources than wiki,your sources continue to be on nail in the coffin archaeologist and outdated websites who you can give no further reference of.


You seem to be in love with the wsu.edu site,I think you should send him some fan mail. Can you give another reference shall we.




Originally posted by goldenstar


No, no matter how many times you repeat yourself, Sudan is a full Arab country and Arab member of the Arab League as said above, and Arabic is the mother tongue of its people not only the language of administration or elite as in Somalia.

As said earlier, if Sudanese started identifying with the Arabs only recently then English people started to identify with England recently and French people with France recently too. By the way, before to identify with modern Arabs, Sudanese were already linked to Egyptians for millenia during the Pharaonic era.



Your wrong the Sudanese are black no matter how much you try to deny it, the ancient language of Kush was Meriotic they then adapted Greek, and went on to Arabic,there also 144 languages in the sudan,English is also considered a standard language does that make them Anglo-Sudanese.LOL

Originally posted by goldenstar


Somalians speak Italian too, and English.



That doesn't make them English or Italian does itOuch



South or East or North or West, noone cares, people from Turkey and Pakistan are both in the same Asian continent.

I Wasn't talking to youSleepy

Stay FocusedLOL







I have a total right about universal concepts shared by most humans on earth, you attach yourself with every people who share a similar physical appearance while they see you as a foreigner.


By the way It seems you like reading heres book I'll recomend.


http://www.statementanalysis.com/lying/lying.jpg

LOLLOL
LOL


People from West Africa do not seem to care about those from the Horn of Africa, not more than a Turk cares about Pakistanis, do not try it again, you're alien to them in term of history and civilisation, you only share their hair texture and skin colour as an Algerian and a Greek LOL Embarrassed


But the fact is they are cross continental ethnic groups as mentioned




Most of all the are different ethinic groups living in different countries such as the Fulani,Wolof,and Mandinka.

The Hausa are people who are in both east and west Africa,the Azande in the Sudan and the Congo.Be concerned with your own matters and just as you identify with Pan Arabism so do alot of Africans reguardless of who you know.

As I said.Tongue
Tongue
Big smile

Big smile

No, no no, I think YOU need a pair of glasses. It says Aksum did not originate from the Sabean kingdom, because past scholars believed Sabeans created this kingdom, but it still doesn't contradict the very accepted theory that the "indigenous" Aksum and its predecessor of D'mt were created by locals as a direct result of the heavy influence of Arab Sabeans and on the model of their civilisation, like archaeologist Fattovich, mentioned in your own article, has assumed. Some also think it was not only locals but also Sabean settlers who created this civilisation with them.


LOLLOL LOL(No,No,No)Why do I sense nefarious anger in your first sentence. The fact is you cannot distort history or the concrete conclusions.There is Sabean occupation of northern Eritea and Ethiopia but they did not start that civilzationLOL

It also stated that Ge'ez writing orginated there in Eritea and Northern Ethiopia.

Originally posted by goldenstar


.. Why didn’t Vandal NORTH AFRICA defend yourselves against the foreign  muslim armies when they came in with Uthman Ibn Affan...

http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22762&PN=15




The Vandalic Kingdom disappeared in the 500s, Muslims came in the 600s.



The Maghrebs seem to have traded different masters as you said from the Vandals,to The Byzantnes and then Ummyads.Big smile




It is off-topic, the subject is the civilisation of Kush.


The Soda and Dongola were cities in the Southern Sudan and deriviated from Kush. Those were the civilizations in Southern Sudan

You're the one who commented my physical apparence and mentioned my picture though... LOL

Originally posted by AksumVanguard


As I said having the straight nose is not exclusive to European peoples or descent of Europeans you can look at the Tutsi and see it for yourself


Originally posted by goldenstar


Noone said it was present only in Europe, I have a straight nose from what I remember.


I have no recollection of me saying that.Shocked

No offense dude but your weird,Wacko I think you order drinks at the bar extra fruity,I'm not going to say which kind of bar you hang at  thouLOLLOL



http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22762&PN=23



Originally posted by goldenstar


But don't hate yourself, some European and Arab girls I know who have curly hair are very jealous of mine after all,


http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22762&PN=24

ConfusedConfused


Do they ask you where you buy your wigs too?Embarrassed





Edited by AksumVanguard - 24-Mar-2009 at 09:07
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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 07:49
 
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

 
 
Originally posted by goldenstar



You're wasting your time, he is  a fanatic and is convinced that everyone is wrong besides him and those who follow his delirious ideology that every great civilisation in the world is Black.


 
 
I don't see the point in continuing this topic because it's repetative, maybe it's time a mod locked it for good !
 
 
 
 
1 Afrocentrism website declared India was a " Black " nation LOL
 
I concur with Prince of Zeila.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 12:08
Originally posted by dmarniche

You obviously haven't also read most of my comments. Why would you talk about modern Arabs and Berbers which i have hardly made mention of in my blogs.  Is there some psychological disconnect somewhere, If so  i'm not ready to give therapy for it.
 
I have flooded the forum with directs quotes from Syrians, Arabs, Iranians and Europeans of all eras and origins all who have said the same thing with regard to the Arabs and Berbers. If you can not understand that there is a difference between modern and ancient than you are the irrational one.  Let me put it again modern Arabs ancient  Arabs.  Let me say it another way - modern Arabs / the original Arabs.  Does this compute?!


Your references mention the Medieval period, not ancient times.

But anyway, ironically your sources in history come from itintellectuals who would never agree with your extreme ideology, most anthropologists assume the ancient and modern Arab World is basically the same in term of race and did not have a significative sub-Saharan element in the past.
 
You have flooded the blog with photos of people who have little do with the Arab and Berber peoples that were spoken of by the Iraqis, Syrians, Iranians .


The Southern half of Iraq and Eastern half of Syria were part of the Arabic-speaking world and were ruled by Arab monarchs long before those authors wrote their texts, before Islam, so the picture made sense.

And if you want pictures of Yemenis, here they are:










I did not flood aything, I put the pictures of the people we were talking about to prove your delirium was senseless, and everyone is interested in comparing populations they don't know.

On the other hand, you have posted tons of pages (thanks to copy/past technology) from various websites that noone will ever read entirely because it is always the same irational myths.

You never answer questions or give concrete arguments but only post again and over again the same propaganda that was proven wrong, without reacting when people clearly show its contradictions.

You may show as many European paintings of Black Arabs as you want or selecting the darkest modern Arabs to make a point, I can also post European paintings of Scandinavian Middle-Eastern Egyptians, Palestinians, or Iraqis (Jesus, Abraham, Hagar, and all the Biblical characters), and those of Black citizens of the West, I don't think it will change anything to facts, and facts are ancient Arabia is not a Black area whether you like it or not.

Berbers and Arabs conquered populations and populations adopted their dialects.  What scholar does not propound that ? how is that propoganda.


The propaganda concists to make all people believe everyone was Black because some ancient authors or paintings told it. Black people conquered populations in sub-Saharan Africa too, and imposed their culture on them, so perhaps it means original sub-Saharans were White and were forced to become Black by dark skinned invaders.

 
Would you like me to flood the site with photos of modern Arabians of Central Arabia and modern Tuareg, Nafusa Zaghawa Drawa, Siwa


Most central Arabians are not darker than people from Pakistan and India, post their pics if you want.

Tuaregs are now mixed, they are not representative of ethnic North Africans, who are thousands of miles from them, and live closer to Blacks than to Maghrebis.

and for that matter the darker skinned Kabyles who the Europeans said predominated in the Kabyle area as late as the 19th century .   how will that prove anything unless one has it in the proper context.


Kabyles are still predominant in Kabylie, and they're not darker than other Algerians. 

If you post those pics you'll just prove that you're wrong, unless you have a selective mind and show only Black citizens or part-Black citizens as I would do with pictures of Black Americans labeling all Whites in the U.S.A as sub-Saharans.
 
What people do you claim to be from? do you know even the names of the Berber tribes  that occupied the Kabyles.

Do you even know the names of the Berber tribes that were along the coast of North AFrica. Are you one of the many fair skinned Moroccan Berbers called Ghomara who claim descent from the Masmuda.   Which Berber are you?  To the extent that you have haplotypes related to Eurasians and Europeans is the extent that you are not Berber.  This is not to say you don't have Berber blood. None-the-less the Beriberi who were in fact the Imazighen  according to all accounts or "the Mazikes" of the ancient Mauretania and Tripolitania were a very dark -skinned people who were as i have stated now twice designated as "Ethiopians" in Roman documents!!  The fact that fair-skinned people have occupied north Africa since the iron age as protoGreeks and Scythians and later came  Alans, Vandals, slaves and Turks, does not in any way mean they are related to Paleolithic Eurasian peoples of North Africa.  Is there a single source that says people that looked like these people were called before recent European colonials "Imoshagh" or 'Amazigh' feel free to show me.   Oh that 's right -  you don't believe in documented history!
 
, although some of the paleaolithic skeletons of Taforalt as at Cyprus do show Eurasiatic affinities both osteologically and in more contemporary genetic study, there is certainly no archeological evidence for an of association with Paleolithic peoples Eurasian with iron age peoples.  Although there is plenty of evidence the Iber Maurusian dolichophals were directly ancestral to Capsian and then Neolithic Saharan folk.


No Berber tribe occupied the Kabyles, the Kabyles are an original Berber-speaking people from Algeria.

Do you know what Black tribe you came from, do you know the historyof your ancestors' lands, do you ever know what was their land, besides being located aproximately in a very huge area in the Western part of the continent of Africa?

Do you ever know anything about your history prior to the Arab and European invasions of your forefathers' lands?

You know absilutely nothing of your past, because little has been left in sub-Saharan Africa, no traces, no writing, nothing, we know nearly absolutely nothing about that continent besides in a few regions that were linked to the rest of the world such as the Horn of Africa and Sudan.

All you know, comes from others, from people who consider Diop as an imposteur, and Diop knew nothing when he etablished his theories besides what Western scientists that he considers to be liars, ahd stated before him.
 
Now I am very tired of repeating what ancient writers said and being called "fanatic" and "Afro-centric" for it, so as the Quran which i don't normally like to repeat says (just because i don't know enough about it ) "do not argue with fools" - I will take this advice and finish my nearly completed  site onf Afro-Asiatics based on linguistics,  archeology, genetics, and the many historical documents which you have deemed useless to consider.   


I do not care about the Quran, it is not a religion room we're debating about history not religious beliefs. Ancient writers believed most people of North-Africa, Arabic-speaking, originated from Arabia... LOL

Your references are very limited and extremely poor in coherence.




Edited by goldenstar - 24-Mar-2009 at 12:16
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 13:22
Pinguin is tired of discussing things with fanatics. Particularly those that recommend books.
So, I will also recommend a couple of book to clean the mind of so many lies. "Not out of Africa" by Mary Lefkowitz.
 
And a book writen by a Black man, tired of loonies... "Afrocentrism: mystical pasts and imaginary homes" by Stephen Howe
 
 
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  Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 14:44
Originally posted by AksumVanguard

Well it is obvious,where do you suggest the North African phenotype came from, people have only hypothesized that the EB3 mutated in the Levant.Where do you suggest the e3b gene orginatef because all scientist lean towards East Africa,are you mad that you would rather be called Caucasian,because your genetics prove otherwise.All humans orginate from Africa but you would rather here that you were Caucasian,Semitic who migrated back to Africa and settled in that region.But you are a Moor,and Moors have never been black
but some 10000 to 20000 years ago you did look different,but that doesn't change Moorish culture,why are you so scared of that.


You're so ashamed that I exposed your lies that you are now changing the subject again, you didn't expect me to go back to your former posts, did you?

LOL LOL LOL

Too bad I am smarter, you are so intelligent that you think North Africans are Blacks who recently mutated and adapted black skin... Tongue

Eurasia sometimes includes  the Horn of Africa also called Afro-Eurasia,


Wrong, Eurasia never includes East Africa, it is Eurafrasia or Afro-Eurasia that include East Africa, Eurasia is strictly Europe and Asia. Period! LOL

but lets focus on where  the e3b gene is found.

Heres what the ancient greeks called it

"The ancient Greeks knew that the earth was round. But for them the world and the globe were not synonymous. The world was an "island world," a conjuncture of Europe, Asia, and Africa. This Afro-Eurasian land mass centered on the Mediterranean."

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/courses/teachers_corner/40010.html

What hogwash  most people in the Middle east have the J1 or J2  marker.Don't forget the the E halpogroup coming from e3b is 10000 years younger than e3a,how did it transmutate from J1 to E3B are you going backwards.


Who cares about amateur ancient authors, did they have a degree in genetics and anthropology? LOL Tongue

Your beloved Wikipedia says Eb3 moved into the coast of Europe, so is it sub-Saharan or Caucasian, do you have a source telling it is sub-Saharan as you always say?

Your wrong because the e3b gene is prominent in East Africa.If it orginated in the Middle East it will be the most common  trait there.Not to mention the different polymorphism phases  it underwent,Ouchso scientist know that by the time humans left out afrca and went to  the Levant the Eb3 halpogroup gene morphed and mutated to  the different markers.The halpogroup then c  came back to the East Africa.But this is only in theory because the gene seems to be already prominent in East Africa.But  you do know the J1 is most prominet in the Middle East, how do you explain the J1 is most prominent halpogroup there.J1 comes down the line a little longer.


Well, that's the source you posted that says it is a gene the Semites left as a genetica heritage to Ethiopians, but you're still free to provide an other source to ridicul yourself again... LOL

Where not talking about Senegalese,were does that come from?


It comes from the website you posted, which shows dark Senegalese have more Caucasian genes than Egyptians have sub-Saharan ones. Your brain seems very limited in understanding common conversations.

You say the Non-black Egyptians started the civilzation of Kerma


I never mentioned Kerma in this context.

but you have no proof of Egypt being tottally north African.


And you have no proof sub-Saharan African is totally Black and not partly Mongoloid and Caucasoid, no proof that the you're a human being and not an inhabitant of Mars... LOL

Even at the Archeaology sites of Nabata Playa,they agree that the Pre nubians and early Egyptians are of the same culture and anthropologic bone structure


Meaning pre-Nubians were not sub-Saharans I guess.

and the Negroids have always occupied the Sudan.


Sudanese are Arabs and their history is linked to the North for millenia when they were incorporated in the Pharaonic empire, they don't identify with sub-Saharans.

First of all I wasn't talkin to you,for some strange reason you have a habit of taking other non-related interest to your liking when it doesn't involve you,i e Sub -Saharan West Africa and East Afrca poltical forces,Black Sudans, etc.

Then why answer for Pinguin then? You choose to intervene and answer incorrectly,you should've listened to what I said and get the your views in proper perspective.

I Wasn't talking to you

Stay FocusedLOL


I wasn't talking to you hen you first addressed me, you still engaged in a long debate with me. It is a public forum and I am free to correct people who are wrong, which I just did because you were wrong with Pinguin... Smile

What can be certain is that Phoenicians founded the city of Carthage by Queen Elissa(Queen Dido).Do not try and twist my words, I said the the Phoencians built the city of Carthage, I never said it wasn't you implied it was started by the Berbers which is untrue,it was started by an outside entity.You didn't say anything to that matter


I never said such a thing, quote me, as I quoted you and proved you were a professional liar. The point is Carthage and other Maghrebi countries existed centuries before West African states, and influenced their creation.

Why do you choose to defend another man,Shockedthen you say I am not Pinguin but you choose to put words in his mouth as well.

I thought you said you weren't Pinguin,why are you still talking for him are you his squire.LOLLOL


Why wouldn't I, you said he was my friend. The true question is why do you try to change the subject again, instead to face the fact I just proved how wrong you were when you talked to Pinguin... Tongue

Now to say the Carthagenians influenced the Pre-West African States,is incorrect because you have no proof. The Carthagenians occupied the Coast of North Africa and the Southern interior of the Sahara was occupied by Nomadic Berbers.

Im not sure what your saying but as I said before there is no proof that the Carthaginian civilization influenced the Pre-Ghana civilzation.


The University Website I provided said Carthage had contacts with sub-Saharans, perhaps it did not influence them, but the point is Maghrebi people did it, not necessarilly Maghrebis from Carthage but ancient Tuaregs for instance.

Of course the Garamentians and Numidians existed before  but Numdians only became advanced after their overlordship of Phoenicians and so did other Berber tribes.So if the Berber settlements were only small encampments and  towns and in your opinon considered advanced then so are the Soninke settlements since they existed before.


You never showed any proof that people were not advanced before their "overlorship to Phoenicians", you confuse your sub-Saharan anestors before the expeditions from Arabia and Egypt.

Again, you're off-topic, Maghrebis had trade ties with sub-Saharans since ancient times.

Contradiction must be your greatest virtueLOL, you said it was founded in the 800s bce but they're some speculation it was settled maybe as a camp or settlement some time prior to the 800sbce.


Seeing yourself in everyone again, there is no contradiction, it is the most accepted theory and people universally follow it, human beings may have not originated from Africa we still follow this theory.

But what we know is that Carthage along ,Tingus,Uitica,and Byblos have always been influential throughout the Phoenician civilzation but after 575 bc when the Assyrians captured the Eastern Cities such as Tyre. Carthage became  the leadering force for Punic states.


Bla, bla, bla, there were Maghrebis trading in sub-Saharan Africa and traveling there long before Carthage became an empire...

LOL

So if technically the Carthaginians empire would have been more influential  575 bce,but there is no evidence of the Berbers creating West African states.


575 B.C is about a millenium before the creation of pre-Berber Awkar Black "state structures", and your source, Answers, says Berbers created the Songhai empire, the most important and powerful of its time (later destroyed by Maghrebis), not to mention it also says the Soninke took over a Berber society, and my source say they followed it and it became the model for all the following West African states.

We'll you implied it,you should be more specific at times, I think you chose to change your position on your opinionated views quite often.First you say the Berbers want no part of Sub-Saharan history then you say the Southern Berbers are part of the History make up your mind.


Do not see yourself in me and everyone, you're a professional liar and were quoted several times while you were changing your version 100 times, I just exposed how you lied about North Africans being Black mutants, you first said it and then denied until I made you feel ashamed because I posted your previous message when you challenged me to quote you... LOL

I never said people from the Arab Maghreb are exactly the same as Southern Berbers, and Maghrebis do not have anything to do and don't want to have anything to do with sub-Saharan Africa, it is not their region, end of the story.
 
Right so who's to say the so called mixed Berbers,created the Sub Saharan civilization they obviously have both histories if the have both Berber and Sub-Saharan ancestry.

More importanatly the Tuareg were Half Black and Berber and it was major crossroad in the South Sahara and more famous than the oasis of the North.

And the Tuaregs are an admixture of Sub-Saharan and Berber ancestry,so whos to say the Tuaregs are pure Berbers,even if you would attempt to babbe on about who they identify with Maghreb Arab,the fact is that there Berbers living South of the Sahara with black ancestry.LOL


If a mixed people in ancient times identified with the North and its ancestors today still do, their civilisation is linked to the North, period.

And again you're wrong. First of all, medieval Southern Berbers were not necessarilly a mixture as many are today because they recently enslaved sub-Saharans. Second of all, modern Southern Berbers are not of mixed ancestry in the sense of being half sub-Saharan and half Maghrebi, they are predominantly of Maghrebi stock and have significant amount of Black ancestry because their ancient Northern Tuareg ancestors enslaved plenty of sub-Saharans, not to mention they incorporated pure Blacks in their people through centuries.

Do not try to rewrite history, these populations especially those from Southern Algeria and Libya identify witht the North not with your pseudo Black Power nation, we're all the same human race and all that matters is Tuaregs (who speak Arabic and Berber as their mother languages not sub-Saharan tongues) reject you and do not want you in their club because they see you as a sub-Saharan, even an Algerian Tuareg who would be darker than you and people from the Horn of Africa would see you as a sub-Saharan and would identify with the state of Algeria... Embarrassed

In my opinion, Maghreb should support independentists Tuaregs of Niger and Mali in their struggle against the local governments, primitive Nigerian and Malian armies would be forced to cede those lands European colonisers recently added into their artificial newly created Western made states that proud the locals such as yourself so much... LOL

Besides the point that the Ghana civilzation were purely African made by the Soninke


Besides your source says differently, it says the Soninke captured this Berber kingdom that had dominated their ancestors... Embarrassed

I said the the Southern Berbers roamed as Nomads most of the time,for some strange reason the founding of Timboukto was founded after the pinnacle of the Ghana Empire and for some strange reason it is found on the portal of the Sahara and Ghana Empire.

hmm so not was it only founded after the 11thAd at the height of the Ghana empire,but it flourished from it being a crossroad for Nomadic Caravans. it was however incorperated into the Mali empire in the 13th cent AD.


You said they etablished no settlements as they were nomads,  I proved you were very wrong by showing they founded one of the most important Black city of West Africa, so don't be mad and accept your defeat... LOL LOL LOL

There is no strange reason because the Ghananian empire etablished itself in taking over a Berber settlement. And again, Tuaregs were semi-nomadic and settled in cities as well, not to mention Arab Moors were not necessarilly nomadic.

I have given you all the names, you choose to believe what you will.


I choose to believe what scholars say, including your own sources, not your Afrocentrist ideas... Clap

Can you name an indegenous North Afrcan empire,other than


All the entities you mentioned were indigenous besides Vandalic and Byzantine North Africa.

the Phoenican Carthaginians


Carthaginians were not Phoenician settlers (no way to transport hundreds of thousands of people from a small and empty region to thousands of miles away by sea 3000 years ago) but ethnic Maghrebis who adopted the Punic civilisation, a mixture of Punic-Berber cultures. Phoenicians were ethnically and linguistically related to Maghrebis, and are the ancestors of the Levantine Arabs, who are totally related to Maghrebis. It is not like Arabia's people and Egyptians who were and still are totally alien to the territory of what became D'mt and Aksum thanks to their civilisation and technology.

other than Romanized Numidians,Vandalic North Africans,Byzntanium Vassals


Numidians and their kings predated Romans, they existed centuries before them, not to mention ancient Mauretania. Vandals and Byzantines mainly occupied the coastline without interfering with the locals.

Islamic Maghreb


Maghrebis are Muslims, you make no sense, and when Middle-Easterners came they faced Queen Kahina who fought them, I guess you're going to use google now... LOL

and European Colonizers.


European colonialism created no empires in North Africa, but occupied the 3 historical states of Maghreb starting in the 19th and 20th centuries. France invaded the Regency of Algiers and annexed it, and captured the regency of Tunis and the Sultanate of Morocco it proclaimed protectorates.



Edited by goldenstar - 24-Mar-2009 at 15:22
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  Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 15:00
Originally posted by AksumVanguard

The proof is there ,its been said that Aksum is a creation of Aksumites(Ethiopians).


Your source says Aksum and its Dm't predecessor existed as a direct result of the Sabean influence on the locals which led to the urbanisation and civilisation of their region... Smile

I have no recollection of me saying that.

No offense dude but your weird,Wacko I think you order drinks at the bar extra fruity,I'm not going to say which kind of bar you hang at  thouLOLLOL


It seems like you have made a comment about my nose not being straight, I answered you were wrong, you answered noone cared and implied I was bringing the subject while you had started it by commenting the feature of my nose.

Pay attention instead to look desperately for an occasion to show you're not that foolish...you're just making more a fool of yourself... LOL

Do they ask you where you buy your wigs too?


They simply see that I am not of sub-Saharan ancestry unlike you, and have natural straight silky hair that allow me to not frustrate myself about wasting a fortune in a hair straightener or extended artificial hair as many people in your country do... Embarrassed

Why would you want to know west African history, I thought that has nothing to do with you it seems you want to be part of it.


I am interested in knowing the history of human beings, including the history of West Africans and in particular their interactions with Maghrebis, it doesn't mean I have to accept to be forced to become a Black who mutated as Afrocentrists like you want me to.

Not at the same rate as Maurentania,they are both moor and black,and are not exactly minorities.


Wrong, most Mauritanians even Black skinned and mixed Moors consider themselves to be Arab and identify with the Arab North not with sub-Saharans, only a minority of Blacks inhabit the country and there is a clear ethnic division.

I am not foolish enough to answer nosy questions,which don't concern you who always seem to be nosy. But as I told you I am part  East Indian,Part East Afrcan and West African descent so I can observe both cultures if I choose.I don't tell my exact location over the Net or my identity.


You're ashamed of your nationality it is evident, you have made a very long and detailed answer about your background, but magically never used specific terms, you rather said  "my father is from this continent and my mother from this ocean and my great-grandfather from this historical region"... LOL

Strange that it is so difficult to say your real nationality when you attack that of others with so much anger, probably you're ashamed of your country's level of life and backwardness... Tongue

The Anazazi which lived in Mexico,New Mexico,Arizona, and the rest of the Southwestern of the United States are now home to mostly Americans of European ancestry,doesn't mean they could stake claim to the Anasazi history.


Nothing to do, people of Mauritania are considered indigenous while Europeans are settlers in the Americas.

So you are wrong to say that the Ghana heritage belongs to Maurantania,just because its located there,when it clearly states by Maghreb Historians  it was started  by Mande' people.


Maghrebi historians never stated anything, try again. The heritage of the territory of Mauritanians belongs to them not to the Mande.

I wonder why if they were established there, why didn't they send for reinforcemnets from neighboring cities, the Ghana civilzation was created by Soninke.


No matter how many times you repeat yourself, Soninke took over the Berber kingdom and followed its civilisation, your sources said it.

It would seem a bit strange when the Maghrebs adapt foreign civilizations rather than initiating the Sahelian civilzations foreign to their native land

The Maghrebs seem to have traded different masters as you said from the Vandals,to The Byzantnes and then Ummyads.


Byzantine and Vandalic controls were very limited, not in the entire Maghreb, do not mention Vandals again because you proved you didn't know the history of their presence in Maghreb. I do not want to mention all the North Africa, Middle-Eastern, and European nationalities and empires and kingdoms that occupied the totally of sub-Saharan Africa and easily submitted it because the list will be endless.

The history of sub-Saharan Africa is countless inter-Black wars, invasions, migrations, sub-Saharans have been adopting foreign "civilisations" for thousands of years but since they share a common hair texture and skin colour you'll say they adopted their brothers' customs, even if they are totally different, and even if you consider Maghrebi and Levatine Arab people of the same racial stock to be foreigners to each other. Hypocrisy... LOL

Not to mention the Tuaregs who border the region are of black ancestry.


Try again, Tuaregs are not Black people but Northern Maghrebis including a large part of mixed people and a large part of their ancestors' former slaves.

You remind me about those desperate people in Congo or South Africa who are proud that Blacks are now "ruling the world" because half-sub-Saharan president Obama has the same hair texture and a similar skin colour as the inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa, regardless of the fact he is a citizen of the U.S and doesn't have anything to do with African people... Embarrassed

Koumbi Saleh the capital of Ghana is Sub-Sahran africa, I think you need to do better obsering


The capital city of ancient Ghana is located in an Arabic country and controled by an Arab government. The point is about the entireheartland of ancient Ghana not its extended territory or capital city, and Southern Mauritania is mostly Saharan besides a tiny Sahelian strip.

Yea trade it for salt,I wonderwhy if the Soninke had no technology were they able to defeat the BERBERS at Akwar.


What technology did they have, besides being in a bigger number than nomadic Berbers? Can you tell me the achivements of the Soninke in technology and military discoveries? LOL

They coalised and defeated a small settlement of Berbers who had dominated them for centuries, great... Embarrassed

Where do they state that Berbers created when you get it straight from the horses mouth.


You are changing the subject again, you implied since Arab geographers mentioned the empire of Ghana existed it means it was Blacks who created it, how is that, can you explain this logic?

You are North-Afro Centrist because you use their same tactics to redefine history as with the Sudanese and Ghana Empire.


That's your opinion, but I never said sub-Saharans were Caucasians who mutated and adapted light skin, even if you'd be so happy if I did... Embarrassed

I wonder what history are you talking about, the Phoeneican Carthaginians, to the Arab Ummayads have always found an oppurtunity to take advantage of the primitive Maghreb society.You say you gladly accepted the New Islam religion I think the Maghrebs were in need of Overlords as they have been throughout history.


I already answered above about Carthaginians being ethnic Maghrebis of Punic-Berber culture.

You're mad I guess, I hurted you, didn't I...? Arab Umayyads and Phoenicians are the same racial stock as Maghrebis, it is not like North Africans and Arabia's people invading sub-Saharans including your ancestors and "civilising" them while they're not related to each other... not to mention Christianity, the Middle-Eastern religion of Palestinians and their neighboors your ancestors adaopted betraying their former Black deities... LOL

You have yet to give proof, you also call Sudanese Arabs when they are clearly of black descent you crave to be apart of that history.LOL People also try to claim Mutapa as an East Asian creation.


All proof were given that sub-Saharan "civilisations" partly if not entirely emerged because of foreign influence. Sudanese Arabs (the majority) are not of Black descent but show mixed North African/Black features, and their descent is irelevant because the concept of nation is not only a racial matter as your Black Power Africa and its nation of sharing a common skin colour and hair texture, the concept of Arab nation includes part Black and pure Black Sudanese people, who fully feel Arab and do not identify with sub-Saharans...

I know you dislike it, but it isn't my fault if they attach their civilisation with the North for millenia rather than with the darker skinned Southern Sudanese and other sub-Saharans.

LOLLOL LOL(No,No,No)Why do I sense nefarious anger in your first sentence. The fact is you cannot distort history or the concrete conclusions.There is Sabean occupation of northern Eritea and Ethiopia but they did not start that civilzationLOL


Anger LOL LOL

Why would I be angry or jealous as you said? Embarrassed

D'mt or Aksum invented nothing, their achivements in sciences is ZERO, they brought nothing to the world, and never contributed to humanity.

The point is, whether you like it or not, the debate between historians is not whether D'mt's people created their civilisation with no influence or no, most of them agree they were heavily influenced by Sabeans and their civilisation emerged from this influence, the debate between historians is rather "Did the culturally "superior" Sabean settlers create the civilisation of D'mt with the locals on the basis of Sabean society, or did the locals create it themselves on the basis of Sabean society? ".

I know it hurts, but it is not my fault if your own source proves you wrong...reread Fattovich Smile

The development of urbanism in the northern Horn of Africa in ancient and medieval times


The Early Urban Stage (first millennium BC), represented by the pre-Aksumite culture in Eritrea and Tigray. It corresponds to the development of the Sabean-like kingdom of Da’amat on the plateau.

A sedentary people, apparently with Afro-Arabian cultural traditions, was settled on the plateau around Asmara (Eritrea) in the late second millennium BC (the ‘Ona Group A’ with red pottery, c. 1500–1000 BC).

In the early first millennium BC, the southern Arabians penetrated in the western Tigrean plateau, most likely to get a direct access to the resources of the western lowlands, particularly ivory.

Quite soon the region was included in the area of political and commercial influence of the kingdom of Saba.


The contacts with the Sabeans gave rise to the local kingdom of Da’amat.



An urban society, reflecting the south Arabian pattern, appeared on the plateau.

In particular, the south Arabian expansion in the late second to early first millennia BC, stimulated the emergence of a state on the plateau.

In the late first millennium BC, after the decline of the kingdom of Saba in southern Arabia, the kingdom of Da’amat collapsed.

In the first half of the second millennium AD, towns apparently no longer existed on the Tigrean plateau, but a few Islamic ports, connected with the Arab commercial activity along the Red Sea, occurred along the coast.


http://www.arkeologi.uu.se/afr/projects/BOOK/fattowich.pdf




It also stated that Ge'ez writing orginated there in Eritea and Northern Ethiopia.


Wrong, historians think it existed there before the Sabean influence and stated it as not a variant of Sabean Arabic, but it doesn't mean this Semitic langiage was not brought there by foeigners. Semitic is the language of the Semites, and the only Blacks who speak Semitic live near Arabia, all the other sub-Saharans speak non-related alien tongues.

It seems your ancestors were probably submitted to masters came from Arabia long before the Arab Sabeans allowed the creation of D'mt... LOL

And so is D'mt the language of Ge'ez was spoken long before the cohabitation of both Sabeans and Pre-D'mt inhabitants the Ge'ez language was made in the Tigraynia and Eritean region.


Only Blacks who live near Arabia and Arabic-speaking regions have Semitic tongues as their maternal languages, all other sub-Saharans speak non-related alien languages. Strange... Embarrassed

I gave way more sources than wiki,your sources continue to be on nail in the coffin archaeologist and outdated websites who you can give no further reference of.


You use a source even your Africentrist friend considers to be unreliable, you showed only Wikipedia and its unreliable derived websites, amateurs' blogs, racist websites, in other words: NOTHING scientific.

By contrast, I showed the articles of specialists and archaeologist fattovich, your own author you declare to be most reliable, mentions him as his reference.

Your wrong the Sudanese are black no matter how much you try to deny it, the ancient language of Kush was Meriotic they then adapted Greek, and went on to Arabic,there also 144 languages in the sudan,English is also considered a standard language does that make them Anglo-Sudanese.LOL


The ancient language of France is Celtic it doesn't mean French people are more related to Scottish people than to Basque-speaking French, try again.

No, no matter how many times you repeat yourself, Sudan is a full Arab country and Arab member of the Arab League as said above, and Arabic is the mother tongue of most of its people not only the language of administration or elite as in Somalia.

By the way, before to identify with modern Arabs, Sudanese were already linked to Egyptians for millenia during the Pharaonic era.

The Soda and Dongola were cities in the Southern Sudan and deriviated from Kush. Those were the civilizations in Southern Sudan


The civilisation of Kush started in Northern Sudan, the topic is not the "civilisations" of Southern Sudan or the people Kush conquered and "civilised" in the South.

That doesn't make them English or Italian does it


The point is Somalians speak other foreign languages than Arabic, which means they don't speak Arabic as their mother tongue.

But the fact is they are cross continental ethnic groups as mentioned

The Hausa are people who are in both east and west Africa,the Azande in the Sudan and the Congo.Be concerned with your own matters and just as you identify with Pan Arabism so do alot of Africans reguardless of who you know.


I didn't understand the first sentence.

West Africans are on of the thousands of ethnic groups in sub-Saharan Africa and speak hundreds of different languages, they have nothing to do with you in term of history because their ancient or modern entities and populations did not really come in contact with your ancestors, whether you like it or not.


Keep on fighting but you have absolutely no credibility, because you didn't only repetitively post self-contradicting sources, everyone  also saw how you lied many times and then tried to lie again by changing your version and hiding your previous lies... I exposed your dishonesty and your contradictions to everyone here... Smile

So, North Africans are Black sub-Saharans who mutated and adapted black skin recently? LOL




Edited by goldenstar - 24-Mar-2009 at 15:30
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