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Moors were Black

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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Moors were Black
    Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 17:51
 Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur.  Morien is described as "all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black."  
 
 William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably.  Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors.  The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a brown man with wooly hair.
 
I found it in some article. Does anybody know which Arab writers wrote about "black Moors" ?? And which cronicles described them as being black ?
 
 


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:00
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 17:54
Originally posted by Siemowit

 Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur.  Morien is described as "all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black."  
 
 William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably.  Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors.  The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a brown man with wooly hair.
 
I found it in some article. Does anybody know which Arab writers wrote about "black Moors" ?? And which cronicles described them as being black ?
 
Shakespeare ignored the realities of Muslim Spain.
 
Bad source.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 17:55
Originally posted by Siemowit

Not many manuscripts survived as I read on google. Some idiotic, dumb Catholic priest burned almost all of them.

 
That's false. Lot's of things of Muslim Spain (the right name) remains.
 
 
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 17:58
The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a brown man with wooly hair.
 
I've read that in Moroccans wooly hair is very rare
 
This description is a description of rather black person.


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:00
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:00

Fellow, what are you looking for? What is the answer you need?

 

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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:01
I need a proof that they were not black. I'm writing work about Black Africa, and I must know exacly were they black or were they not.
 
If they were black I will include them in my work
 
Maybe there was a painting of some Moorish leader or something like that ?


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:12
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:11
Originally posted by Siemowit

I need a proof that they were not black. I'm writing work about Black Africa, and I must know exacly were they black or were they not.
 
If they were black I will include them in my work
 
Moors were Africans. If you are doing a work about Africans you can include them. However, if you are doing a work that excluded people of non-negroid stock, I warn you that most Moors are not really Negroid but Caucasoids.
 
North Africans since the beginning have been a people related genetically with Europe. There is some level of admixture with Subsaharan Africans, but they are a different people since the times of the Ancient Egyptians!
 
Moreover, historically, Black Africa is the region of Africa South of the Sahara. If you follow that definitions, Moors are not your people.
 
There are mixed peoples, like the Tuareg, that are mixed between Moor and Black African, but they don't really represent what the Moor of Spain or the historical Moor was. The Tuareg, though played a very important role in the development of the Kingdoms of South Saharan Africa: Mali, Shonghai, Tombuctu.
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:14
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:13
But is there any evidence, that those Moors who invaded Spain were really not black ??
 
I've seen a lot of evidence that they were Negro
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:14
http://www.white-history.com/moors/problem25.jpg look on this
 
For me they were completly Negroidal


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:15
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:15
Originally posted by Siemowit

But is there any evidence, that those Moors who invaded Spain were really not black ??
 
I've seen a lot of evidence that they were Negro
 
They weren't
 
Otherwise people of Spain wouldn't be like they are today. Many people in Spain resemble the Moors, but you won't find Blacks among them, except some recent immigrant.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:17
Originally posted by Siemowit

http://www.white-history.com/moors/problem25.jpg look on this
 
For me they were completly Negroidal
 
Have you seen the other 99 plates of that book? LOL
 
Please, don't be funny.
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:20
http://www.white-history.com/moors.htm
 
But on the other hand there are also manuscripts depicting them as being white skinned.
 
So I think it is possible that many of them were Negro.


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:20
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:21
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Siemowit

Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur. Morien is described as "all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black."

William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably. Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors. The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a brown man with wooly hair.


I found it in some article. Does anybody know which Arab writers wrote about "black Moors" ?? And which cronicles described them as being black ?


Shakespeare ignored the realities of Muslim Spain.


Bad source.



Shakespeare never wrote about Muslim Spain. In Othello, Othello (the moor) is describes as having the emotional characteristics of Berbers. Specifically Shakespeare puts these words into Iago's mouth while describing Othello and Desdemona's marriage: "...have your daughter covered with a Barbary horse." (Othello I.I)

Edited by King John - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:31
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:25
Originally posted by Siemowit

http://www.white-history.com/moors.htm
 
But on the other hand there are also manuscripts depicting them as being white skinned.
 
So I think it is possible that many of them were Negro.
 
Muslim Spain, Al Andalus was founded by an Arab.
The language they spoke was Arab.
Most of the people in Muslim Spain were native Spaniards.
There were people comming from all over the Muslim world in Spain, including Arabs, Persians, Palestineans, North Africans among them.
Some of the most common immigrants were Syrians.
There were some Blacks in Spain, but they represented not even the 1% of the population, and none in higher posts.
 
What else do you want to know?
 
The obsesion of Afrocentrism with Moors is understandable, but it is false history that not match reality.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:26
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:34
The mixed racial make-up of the Moors is confirmed by their own writing: the Moorish historian Ali ibn Abd Allah, writing in the 1300s, (recall that the Moors were only finally expelled from Spain in 1452) said that a Moorish Sultan of the time , Mohammed ben Idriss is described as blond while Abou el-Hassan el Said had as mother a Nubian slave . . . dark and of mixed blood,
 
Abu Hassan Au, The Black Sultan whose mother was a Negro slave, had as his favorite wife, Shams-ed-Douha (The Morning Sun), a beautiful white captive. (Scott-OConnor, V. C. Vision of Morocco, pp. 99-100. 1923).


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 18:35
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:40
http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/Spain_-_Moors.gif 
 
Does anybody know when was it created and who did it ?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:46
Originally posted by Siemowit

The mixed racial make-up of the Moors is confirmed by their own writing: the Moorish historian Ali ibn Abd Allah, writing in the 1300s, (recall that the Moors were only finally expelled from Spain in 1452) said that a Moorish Sultan of the time , Mohammed ben Idriss is described as blond while Abou el-Hassan el Said had as mother a Nubian slave . . . dark and of mixed blood,
 
Abu Hassan Au, The Black Sultan whose mother was a Negro slave, had as his favorite wife, Shams-ed-Douha (The Morning Sun), a beautiful white captive. (Scott-OConnor, V. C. Vision of Morocco, pp. 99-100. 1923).
 
You are confussing dates and times. The Almoravide invasion of the 1200 certury in fact included BLACKS. Even some rulers were Blacks.
 
But those fellows where not the MOORS. They were a mixture of Moors + Tuaregs and problably Black people from Southern Sahara incorporated to Islam recently.
 
Now, those fellow have nothing to do with the Muslim culture in Spain. In fact Al-Andalus continued to speak Arab.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:50
Originally posted by Siemowit

http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/Spain_-_Moors.gif 
 
Does anybody know when was it created and who did it ?
 
Twelve century once again. The Almoravide invasion. You can notice that only 1 black African was in the boat full of Moors Wink
 
You better do a homework about the Almoravides. That's the most Black you will get.
 
If you write about Moorish Spain, though, you won't find what you are looking for, because Moorish Spain was not a Subsaharan Disneyland but a Islamic Nation, strongly influenced by Middle Eastern culture, and whose race has nothing to do with SS Africa.
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 19:31

Ok now I believe that they were not black :-) But I would also like to see other evidence, so if someone knows something, please write it down here.

Any other manuscripts, paintings, or quotes from chronicles ??
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:32
Hello to you all
 
I have something to say about this subject. The overwhelming majority of muslim imigrants to Spain were Berber not Arabs. Arabs were a small minority while the Berbers were large. Arabs preferred the old Visigoth nobility over the Berbers and most of the Taifa kings were descendents from the old nobility while the rule was with the Arabs. However, during the time of Al-Mansur ibn Abi Amir he brought a lot of the tuareg berber (mostly negroid) to Al-Andalus and because of extreme political differences the revolted burning down Cordoba, Al-Zaherah and Al-Zahra and looting them. The rebellion was destroyed and a republic was proclaimed in Cordoba while the rest of the muslim held parts were divided inot the taifa. Al-Moravids were led by berbers but their elite forces were the Black cavalry which was responsible for Az-Zallaqah and other victories. Yousif ibn Tashfin himself is Black or had very dark skin based on his discriptions that maybe one of the reasons for thinking that most moors were black while they were not. There was little immigration to Al-Andalus starting with Al-Moravids,  the immigration was the other way around.
 
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