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Moors were Black

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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Moors were Black
    Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 09:40

When I read about Moors it is always stated that they were of Berberic origin. But when I read any historical description of moors, they are described as black, or even "black as ink".

Is there any proof that they were really Berberic and not Negro ?
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 09:55
Cześc Siemowit
 
From what I know Berbers are white. I even saw a documentary about them in Polish TV today. Zidane has Berber origin, Edith Piaff and st. Augustine as well.  
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 09:56

I forgot to notice that Moors are not the same what Berbers. I think Spanish called Arabs Moors when Berbers are native tribes of Sahara.

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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 10:08

Cześć

But were those people who invaded Spain really Berbers ? Or were they blacks ? Is there any proof that they were not black ?
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 10:56

People that invaded Spain were Arabs but I assume there were also other Muslim including Black people there. 

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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 11:49
Yes, but how do you know they were Arabs, when they were described as being "black as melted pitch" ??
Is there any proof that they were really Arabs ?
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  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 11:52
revelation, if was told they were as white as snow with ginger hair it would come as a shock
long live the king of bhutan
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 12:00
"A 2006 Mitochondrial DNA study of 12th-13th century Islamic remains from Priego de Cordoba, Spain, indicate a higher proportion of sub-Saharan African lineages attributed at least partially to Moorish occupation, in addition to more ancient migrations to Europe" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 12:24
Originally posted by Siemowit

Cześć

But were those people who invaded Spain really Berbers ? Or were they blacks ? Is there any proof that they were not black ?
 
 
There weren't black, fellow. "Moro" in Spanish doesn't mean "Black"
 
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 12:24

Originally posted by Siemowit

Yes, but how do you know they were Arabs, whenthey weredescribedas being "black as melted pitch" ??




Is there any proof that they were really Arabs ?

Except for speaking Arab, having Arab names and calling themselves Arab?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 12:27
Originally posted by Siemowit

"A 2006 Mitochondrial DNA study of 12th-13th century Islamic remains from Priego de Cordoba, Spain, indicate a higher proportion of sub-Saharan African lineages attributed at least partially to Moorish occupation, in addition to more ancient migrations to Europe" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
 
 
 
That's bull fellow.
 
The North Africans have those DNA lineages, but they didn't look like Idi Amin Dada at all.
 
Look at Amazigh and Kabyles. Those were the Moor troops.
 
With the exception of the invasion of the 12th century, of course. Where real Subsaharan troops where brought to Spain.
 
But the culture, most of the people and the dominant class is not Subsaharan African at all, no matter how hard Afrocentrists try.
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 12:41
Yes, just look at the artwork. No way were they black, lol.  The Spanish Caliphate was formed by the Ummayads who fled from the Middle East.
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 13:06

Afrocentrists claim that in 7th century black Moors were conquered by Arabs and that black Moors accepted Arabic language as their own. And then they were sent by Arabic ruler to conquer Spain. And after some time they went out of Arabic control and they became independent.

This might be a good reason for having Arabic names and speaking Arabic language.
 
Is there any straight, concrete proof that they were not black ? Maybe some DNA study or some paintings from eight century ?


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 13:08
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 13:48

That's funny. Proof that they weren't Black? So much are you convinced that they were? LOL

Better put in this way: Moors were Maghrebians and not Nigerians.
 
Some proofs:
 
(1) Arabs and Beduins conquered the Maghreb.
 
(2) Immediately after they crossed the Strait of Gibraltar and conquered Spain.
 
(3) South Saharan Africa (Mali, Shonghai) were conquered by the Moors AFTER they conquered Spain. The Moors WERE NOT the same people than Black Africans.
 
(4) There is only one record of Subsharan troops in Spain and it was in the 12th century, not in the 8th. The reaction of Spaniards to those strange people, both from Muslims and Christians alike, was noticeable, and that fired the beginning of the end of the Reconquist. Three centuries later Muslims were gone from Spain.
 
These are the Moors. They call themselves Amazigh and the main representatives are the Kabyles.
 
 
 
 
Now, that makes sense. You can see that the Maghreb is closed to Europe rather than South Saharan Africa.
 
A moor of Spain would like about like him
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 14:01
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 14:20
Are there any pictures of the moors from Spain ?? There must be some
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 14:34
Some "Moors" of ancient times.
 
Hannibal, Carthagian.
 
HannibalHamilcar%20Barca
 
 
From The Tale of Bayad and Riyad, Muslim Spain.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 17:04
Originally posted by Siemowit

Afrocentrists claim that in 7th century black Moors were conquered by Arabs and that black Moors accepted Arabic language as their own.



The very premise of your questions is faulty. Afrocentrists, Eurocentrists etc. are called so because they are not taken seriously, because they distort history to fit their own ethnic/cultural agenda. You need to approach this differently, first by picking up some books on the subject written by serious, non-centrist scholars. You can start with the works of R. A. Fletcher and Hugh Kennedy, who both specialise in early Islamic civlisation and have written about the history of Al-Andalus.

Originally posted by Siemowit

Is there any straight, concrete proof that they were not black?


Is there any straight, concrete proof that the Franks were not black? Maybe, but that's not the point; there is no reason to believe they were black in the first place. The Moors were a group of Berbers led by Arabs, from North Africa, and neither the Berbers, Arabs or French for that matter are black today. It's very likely the Arabs brought with them Negroid slaves, as they did everywhere, but how many there were of these is hard to estimate, and it is unreasonable to assume they were a dominant or major element. Negroes were generally not held in very high regard by the Arabs. The famous 14th century sociologist Ibn Khaldun, an Arab from an upper class Andalusian family, writes of the Negroes:

"The only people who accept slavery are the Negroes, owing to their low degree of humanity and proximity to the animal stage. Other persons who accept the status of slave do so as a means of attaining high rank, or power, or wealth, as is the case with the Mameluke Turks in the East and with those Franks and Galicians who enter the service of the state [in Spain]."

Ibn Khaldun as quoted in Bernard Lewis' book "Race and Colour in Islam".
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 17:04

Not many manuscripts survived as I read on google. Some idiotic, dumb Catholic priest burned almost all of them.



Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 17:48
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  Quote Siemowit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 17:06
Another question appears - are those manuscripts which survived depicting Moors, or Spanish enslaved people ? It may be also created by Spanish people.
 
The picture may also depict Arabs, not moors. I found that scientists are not sure was it made by Moors or brought from Arabic land.
 
Are there any paintings from later period ?


Edited by Siemowit - 09-Dec-2007 at 17:49
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