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Question about the Moors who ruled Iberia.
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    Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 12:00
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Hardly. That's the same concept that exists in South America from centuries.
A Moor is a moreno, muslim or Moroccan, with a very defined aspect.
In the British world a Moor is a Black,
I don't think that's true. Certainly it isn't to me, though I grant you there's been a theatrical tradition of making up Othello as a black African, or, more recently, having an african or West Indian play the part, since Shakespeare calls him 'black'.
 
I think that's a misreading of Shakespeare, like the misreadings of Procopius et al.
"Moor" historically in English had much the same meaning as "Saracen*, though it more precisely meant those from the Maghreb. England's (and Britain's) main contact with them was of course to do with piracy, and the Maghrebian pirates were undoubtedly called "Moors".
in Spain and Latin America it is a Maghrebian. That's the difference.
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 12:46
Originally posted by gcle2003

Searching for references (both "melanochrooi" and "melanochroi" appear) seems to confirm my first take that the word literally means "black (or dark) coloured" (as in melanoma and chromatic). It doesn't refer to skin explicitly.
 I don't think so.  Yonge's lexicon (1849) gives for "with dark skin" (a sub-entry for "skin") the term "kyanochroos". "chros" means "skin" but also "skin color, complexion" and seems etymologically related to "chroma".
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 12:55
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Hey, Chili, thanks for catching the the blooper in passage citation of the 8 books on the Wars. I had prepared an elaborate explanation on the Greek and how out of character melanochroi appears given the habit of Procopius to replicate the stilted style of classic Attica. But, the little essay got keyed into the ether as I hit the wrong command. The term is in Book 4 rather than 3, and the gist of the explanation touched upon how the translations on the Internet all derive from Dewing's 1916 work and how he translated the form of melanos into black rather than its proper dark. The original edition is on-line in facsimile (Greek-English) here:
 
Unfortunately that's only volume I (books I and II). In fact, I have assumed that the reference was messed up because books III and IV are in the same volume.
 
As a side comment, from someone speaking of Procopius and his Attic Greek, I wouldn't expect a Chili (not that I am bothered by this colloquialism, but I would have expected other short forms) Wink


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Jan-2008 at 12:57
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Posts: 612 		  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 12:56
The "truth" requires the presentation of material in their entirety. The iconography of Juba II as well as that of his father consists of more than a damaged bust, particularly in view of the marvelous bronze preserved in the Archaeological Museum of Rabat, as well as the large number of coins from the era.
 
 
Bust%20of%20Juba%20II
Title: Bust of Juba II, c. 25 BC
Dimensions: H 47 cm; L 32 cm
Permanent Collection: Volubilis; Archaeological Museum, Rabat
 
 
Similarly, citing an article and misrepresenting its conclusions is troublesome:
 
Human Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in an Archaeological Site in al-Andalus: Genetic Impact of Migrations from North Africa in Medieval Spain
 
CONCLUSIONS
The medieval Priego sample showed greater affinities to North-Africa than other Iberian Peninsula samples including that of present day Priego. Haplotype analysis revealed that some African haplotypes detected in medieval Priego have matches with samples of precise north-African origin as Tunisia, west-Sahara or the Canary Islands pointing to well documented historic connections with this area. However, medieval Priego L1b lineages carrying the 16175 transition have their most related counterparts in Europe instead of Africa. The coalescence age for these L1b lineages is compatible with a minor prehistoric African influence on Priego that also reached other European areas.
 
As the study makes clear the Sub-Saharan L1b lineages with the 16175 transition in the mitochondrial DNA is a reference to pre-history and does not carry the racial connotations sought by your implications.
 
 
What is even more troubling is the purposeful misrepresentation of Arab sources dealing with the expansion into North Africa subsequent to the conquest of Egypt. The activities of Musa Ibn Nasiir and Tariq Ibn Ziyad may be clouded with legends and myths but beginning with the Tarikh al-Tabari of Jarir Ibn Yazid ibn Kathir, the chroniclers emphasize (or minimize in the instance of Al-Hakim) the role of the Berbers of the Maghrib. Likewise in the narrative composed by Ibn Abd-al-Hakim, the notion of "African" invaders is more than farfetched, particularly given your reference to a "Ibn Husayn" [who most certainly can not be Abu Ali al-Husayn better known as Avicenna]. Be that as it may what is claimed by writers in Egypt some two centuries after the event does not pass the test of critical analysis. Here is a full discussion of the topic:
 
In the Kitab-al-Ibar, Ibn Khaldun certainly knows what constitues a Berber far better than some Internet discussion forum.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 18-Jan-2008 at 12:58
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 12:59
Originally posted by viola76

Human Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in an Archaeological Site in al-Andalus: Genetic Impact of Migrations from North Africa in Medieval Spain
by Casas, Hagelberg, Fregel, and Gonzalez
American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2006)
 
 
So, what's the point? Moors are from North Africa, so? Even more Africa was only the Maghreb in classical times.
 
Originally posted by viola76

3.catalan you are right the spanish meaning now is a modern one.
  
 
Dream LOL
 
Originally posted by viola76

Even long before the Crusades, on April 30 in 711, at the invitation of the sons of the late Visigoth King Wittiza, the Umayyad General Tarikh ibn Ziyad (el Moro) led 7000 troops into what was to became Spain and Portugal. His troops consisted of 300 Arabs and 6,700 native Africans.
  
 
Moors are Africans, not Blacks. Those words are not synonims. Remember that Boers are also Africans LOL.
 
Originally posted by viola76

6.look up the moorish almoravid dynastys in spain
  
 
Oh! You mean the people that rule Spain during the decadence of Al-Andalus?
 
Originally posted by viola76

8.here is an interesting debate with pinguin a.k.a KAWASHKAR please read all of it.
 
  
 
Don't forget I was banned from there because I told my truth Wink
 
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 13:31
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by gcle2003

Searching for references (both "melanochrooi" and "melanochroi" appear) seems to confirm my first take that the word literally means "black (or dark) coloured" (as in melanoma and chromatic). It doesn't refer to skin explicitly.
 I don't think so.  Yonge's lexicon (1849) gives for "with dark skin" (a sub-entry for "skin") the term "kyanochroos". "chros" means "skin" but also "skin color, complexion" and seems etymologically related to "chroma".
 
You win, thanks.
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Posts: 612 		  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 14:02
On melanchroos and its use in classic Attic:
 
Herodotus employs melanchroes in describing the Egyptians and the Kolchoi (Colchis)
[Histories. 2:104:2]
 
Homer utilizes the term in describing a hero's complexion.
[Odyssee. 16.175]
 
Euripides in describing the Eumenides employs the variant melanchrotes.
[Orestes. 321]
And again in Hecuba when he wrote "Aida melanchrota". [1105-1106].
 
Its usage for a person of dark complexion or having sunburnt skin is long established. One has to purposely insist on the reading of  black, and such is more an interpretation carried by the reader than the text. Compared to the Greeks, the Egyptians were naturally of darker skin, but insistence that the term means black rather than dark denies the fact that Attic Greek did have a word for black! 
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 14:28
I think the choice for "black" reflects the a view of an era when Africa was the "black continent".
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 15:17
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I think the choice for "black" reflects the a view of an era when Africa was the "black continent".
 
Good point, but the "Black continent" always STARTED South of the Sahara, not up North.
 
The concept of "Africa" is what fails in here. The Maghreb has a close link to the Mediterranean and Europe during centuries. Actually, a relation a lot more closer that to the jungles south of the sand Wink


Edited by pinguin - 18-Jan-2008 at 15:18
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Posts: 612 		  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 17:14
Let us recall that in Antiquity, Africa, was the name chosen by the Romans specifically for the region it annexed after the Punic Wars. It was site specific and distinguished the particular province from the surrounding territories such as Numidia and Lybia. As to the roots of the word, you can choose your poison from the various speculations that abound on-line. As with Libu (attested in New Kingdom hieroglyph as identification of a tribal group), which lies at the root of Lybia, Afer, another Berber tribal group probably lies as the point of origin for the name Africa. The Carthaginians never employed the term and in Punic identified their domain as Qart-Haddasht (the New Land). Much like their Phoenician ancestors, the Carthaginians controlled little hinterland and held sway from coastal enclaves and extended their influence through trade. Interestingly enough, even in the time of Herodotus, the Greeks used the term Lybia to identify all that lay beyond their colonies on the Cyrenaean coast and West of Egypt (4:120). We do know that the Carthaginians first in their struggle with the Greeks and later with Rome, increasingly turned to alliances with the original inhabitants, but these also played a like game with the Romans. Now, the concept of Africa as a continent and a part of geographic nomenclature dates from the time of the geographer Ptolemy.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 23:53
Just a look at the Map shows clearly that the Maghreb is closer to Europe rather than Subsaharan Africa.
 
 
For example: the Carthagian empire shows the link directly
 
 
Look at the distances. Compare the distance from Marrakech to Andalucia with the distance of the same city with Nigeria!


Edited by pinguin - 18-Jan-2008 at 23:56
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Posts: 92 		  Quote viola76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 01:39
pinguin im not even going to reply to you , you just troll, and only mission is to pigeon hole black peoples exsistence to a little part of west africa.
 
gcle id rather use d.n.a to work out berbers then ibn khaldan. also you can easily look up the different berbers on the net.
 
im still not sure what your position is on moorish spain, read this then tell me your thoughts
 
drazonga ,umm hello what is it about this you dont understand. did you even read the study.
 
Human Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in an Archaeological Site in al-Andalus: Genetic Impact of Migrations from North Africa in Medieval Spain
by Casas, Hagelberg, Fregel, and Gonzalez
American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2006)
 
we are talking about moorish spain.not that you didnt know.
 
Mitochondrial DNA sequences and restriction fragment polymorphisms were retrieved from three Islamic 12th13th century samples of 71 bones and teeth (with >85% efficiency) from Madinat Baguh (today called Priego de Cordoba, Spain). Compared with 108 saliva samples from the present population of the same area, the medieval samples show a higher proportion of sub-Saharan African lineages that can only partially be attributed to the historic Muslim occupation. In fact, the unique sharing of transition 16175, in L1b lineages, with Europeans, instead of Africans, suggests a more ancient arrival to Europe from Africa. The present day Priego sample is more similar to the current south Iberian population than to the medieval sample from the same area. The increased gene flow in modern times could be the main cause of this difference
 
drazagonza then its simply a case of he said she said on your opinions of numidians


Arretium, 208-207 B.C. Head of African (top) / Elephant standing (bottom). Seaby's Greek Coins, Vol. I, p. 56, 518.

who is this bust made to resemble then.

Juba II King of Numidia
Son of Juba I, his mother is unknown.

52-23 B.C.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 02:53
I don't think that Pinguing is trying to pigeon hole, he is trying to provide actual black civilizations as points of awe and respect, not made up wishful thinking of a black hanibal or black egypt.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 03:31
Originally posted by viola76

pinguin im not even going to reply to you , you just troll, and only mission is to pigeon hole black peoples exsistence to a little part of west africa.
 
gcle id rather use d.n.a to work out berbers then ibn khaldan. also you can easily look up the different berbers on the net.
 
 
On the contrary, I believe the troll is YOU Wink.
 
But here the concern is not the Black people but the "Moors that ruled Iberia".
 
So, if you are trying to prove Black people ruled Iberia you are wrong or you are trying to fool us, because:
 
(1) Moorish Spain mean Islamic Spain and period.
 
(2) In Spanish, Moor mean Muslim first and Semitic second.
 
(3) Berbers are these. The fact that a minority has admixture with Subsaharan Africans don't change the fact that HISTORICAL Moors don't Wink. In other words, when thinking in Moors, think in Kaddafi and Zidane but not in Idi Amin Dada LOL
 
Berbers:
 
 
(4) You can't construct a "Black people" history robbing the history of people who is not Black. If you want to know "Black people" history or particularly "African American Ancestors", go to West Africa. However, I am afraid I know more about West African peoples' past that you do LOL
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 19-Jan-2008 at 03:34
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Posts: 269 		  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 05:59
I once read a laughable article by an afro-centralist claimed African found the Islamic civilization as  Mohammed spoke Arabic which is Semitic and  part of Afro-Asiatic language family and historians has proven Afro-Asiatic language originated in Africa.Clap
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Posts: 612 		  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 11:04
Viola, you are going to a particular web site and cherry-picking fragmentary material so as to insist upon your misconstructions.  You are simply taking the argument posted on http://wysinger.homestead.com and having no grasp whatsoever on the topic at hand; but, instead, dedicated to the idea that all Africans are Black and a vast historical conspiracy exists to obscure the fact. A point made more than obvious by the selection of a damaged bust rather than the existing portrait bronze [not to mention the ample coinage] of Juba II. [The site also does quite a number on Nefertiti in another section of this polemical hodge-podge fracturing history]. No one here is pigeon-holing anyone, given the fact of the written historical record with regard to the Arab encounter with Sub-Saharan Africa in the 9th century. Rather, the argument you are attempting to uphold has been long discredited and identified solely as a racial polemic peculiarly American. Shades of Marcus Garvey and the Back to Africa Movement.
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 19-Jan-2008 at 12:20
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Posts: 612 		  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 12:18
Viola just what is it that you do not understand of the Casas study and its succinct declaration:
 
"In fact, the unique sharing of transition 16175, in L1b lineages, with Europeans, instead of Africans, suggests a more ancient arrival to Europe from Africa."
 
Casa and his colleagues are linking the remains at Priego to the ancient gene-pool of the first migrations from Africa and not, as you would have it, the current residents of Nigeria! In other words, these 12th and 13th century remains reflect more closely the Mediterranean world of Antiquity than the contemporary gene-pool. It most certainly does not say nor wish to imply as you infer that the residents of Priego were Blacks!
 
I would be more than willing to discuss the historical record on the first contacts of the Berber tribes with the indigenous inhabitants south of the Sahel as well as the ancient kingdom of the Ghana forged by the Mande Soninke as Wagadou. One need not create false analogies so as to assert cultural integrity. Make what you will of Al-Bakri's description of Kumbi Saleh as found in the Book of Routes and Realms written in Al-Andalus. 
 
 
By the way, notice his reference to the bild as-sdn, an Arab geographic term that you chose to misinterpret earlier by implying an Upper Nilotic identification, when in fact it is a definitive meaning "land of the Blacks". A distinction hardly necessary if either the Berbers or the "Moors" were already Blacks as you contend.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 19-Jan-2008 at 14:14
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Originally posted by viola76

gcle id rather use d.n.a to work out berbers then ibn khaldan. also you can easily look up the different berbers on the net.
It wasn't me brought up ibn Khaldan. I have no knowledge of how reliable he might be.
im still not sure what your position is on moorish spain, read this then tell me your thoughts
My position on the Moors who ruled Iberia is that we should accept the verdict of the people who knew them and were ruled by them. That is that they were not black Africans but 'white' . 
 
Your link gave all sorts of views on the situation, so it's difficult to respond to, except to say that a discussion of the origins of the peoples of the Maghreb that doesn't even mention the Carthaginians or the Vandals is not exactly confidence-building.
 
With regard to Timbuktu and the West African civilisations, it needs to be noted that they didn't exist at the time of the conquest of Iberia, and were only contacted by the Arabs (and thereby became rich) sometime later, albeit before 1492. It is of course not impossible that after the establishment of the trade routes, especially the slave trade routes, West African blacks could be found in Iberia. In fact it's probable. It's unlikely they were a significant proprtion of the population.
 
However, if there were some blacks with the invading army in the 8th century, either slaves or freed after conversion, they would be much more likely to have originated from slaves taken in the East African slave trade, which began much earlier.
 
With regard to English usage I think it is vitally important to note that from the 15th century onwards, the term 'blackamoor' was introduced specifically to differentiate Moors (i.e. Muslims) who were black from Moors who weren't. The dating is important in that this is when the European countries first came into contact with the West African peoples as a result of the largely Portuguese explorations of the coast.
 
'Blackamoor' specifically meant a sub-Saharan African, but Shakespeare notably does not call Othello a 'blackamoor' but only a 'Moor'.
 
I might in passing point out that no-one (as far as I know Ermm ... yet) claims that the 'Black Irish' were descended from sub-Saharan Africans.
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Posts: 92 		  Quote viola76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 05:04
pinguin and es bin said....... who cares really no point having a discussion with both of you.
 
dragonzaga you really really should grasp the point this study is saying, my god
 
Human Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in an Archaeological Site in al-Andalus: Genetic Impact of Migrations from North Africa in Medieval Spain
by Casas, Hagelberg, Fregel, and Gonzalez
American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2006)
 
we are talking about moorish spain.not that you didnt know.
 
Mitochondrial DNA sequences and restriction fragment polymorphisms were retrieved from three Islamic 12th13th century samples of 71 bones and teeth (with >85% efficiency) from Madinat Baguh (today called Priego de Cordoba, Spain). Compared with 108 saliva samples from the present population of the same area, the medieval samples show a higher proportion of sub-Saharan African lineages that can only partially be attributed to the historic Muslim occupation. In fact, the unique sharing of transition 16175, in L1b lineages, with Europeans, instead of Africans, suggests a more ancient arrival to Europe from Africa. The present day Priego sample is more similar to the current south Iberian population than to the medieval sample from the same area. The increased gene flow in modern times could be the main cause of this difference.
 
they are saying in medieval spain there was a substantial population with sub saharan lineages then the present population in the same area today as in modern times with is the same as other spanish people.
 
 
gcle we know the moors in spain were black white mixed. i dont know what the rest of what you write has to do with anything
 
 
 
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Posts: 92 		  Quote viola76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 05:11
dragonza berbers are a different coloured group of tribes, you can look them up. if you prove to me i said otherwise on this thread fair play to you, if not, stop lying about what i said.
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