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Question about the Moors who ruled Iberia.
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    Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:16

I think we aren't at the point in here. Yes, it is very true that the concept of "race" needs a revision, and that the concept of population is a lot more precise in that respect.

However, the question in this thread was quite crear: who where the moors?
 
I believe that question was done to associate the Moors of Spain to the people of South Saharan Africa, in order to demostrate that White Europeans were once subordinated to Black people. That's very obvious to me, because the Moors is one of the main targets of Afrocentrism.
 
Now, I believe the answer were pretty clear and I resume here:
 
(1) Moorish Spain reffers to the Muslim or Islamic Spain, or more specifically: Al-Andalus. A society based on the local iberian population and ruled by Arabs and other Muslim people.
 
(2) Moors is in the history of Spain a synonim of Muslim.
 
(3) Moor in Spanish denoted Moroccian or Maghrebian, particularly the people of the coast, that ethnically belong to the Berbers, and whose main group are the Kabyles. They are considered "Caucasians" by all means, and are the same people that populated Carthago and later the Roman province of Mauritania.
 
I think the answer is pretty clear.
 
Question: Where the Moors Blacks?
Answer: No
 
 
 
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Originally posted by pinguin

I think we aren't at the point in here. Yes, it is very true that the concept of "race" needs a revision, and that the concept of population is a lot more precise in that respect.

However, the question in this thread was quite crear: who where the moors?
 
I believe that question was done to associate the Moors of Spain to the people of South Saharan Africa, in order to demostrate that White Europeans were once subordinated to Black people. That's very obvious to me, because the Moors is one of the main targets of Afrocentrism.
 
Now, I believe the answer were pretty clear and I resume here:
 
(1) Moorish Spain reffers to the Muslim or Islamic Spain, or more specifically: Al-Andalus. A society based on the local iberian population and ruled by Arabs and other Muslim people.
 
(2) Moors is in the history of Spain a synonim of Muslim.
 
(3) Moor in Spanish denoted Moroccian or Maghrebian, particularly the people of the coast, that ethnically belong to the Berbers, and whose main group are the Kabyles. They are considered "Caucasians" by all means, and are the same people that populated Carthago and later the Roman province of Mauritania.
 
I think the answer is pretty clear.
 
Question: Where the Moors Blacks?
Answer: No
 
 
 
 
 
 
Just to clarify:
 
I'm from France and am of Asian descent. I'm 19 yrs old. My dad is Chinese and my mom is French, so I'm definatly NOT Afro-Centric. (Neither Euro-centric, I'm about facts backed by evidence.)
 
I didnt ask to question to demonstrate that whites where once subordinated to black people.
 
Like you said, I've heard Afri-centrics debating this and I'm just very intrested in the Moors and want to know more about them.. Because before I heard the replies in this thread, I thought that was highly unlikely. Because, if according to those Afro-centrics, the moors were black, which means African cilivilizatons were very powerfull, then how did the Spanish/ Portugese started tge slave trade so fast after the reconquista. So it doesnt makes sense that they were black.
 
Anyways, thanks for all the replies. They been very helpfull and now I have a better understanding about the Moors.
 
Cheers.


Edited by asianprince - 13-Dec-2007 at 03:05
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Posts: 198 		  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 17:27

BTW, if you're interested in the military aspect of the moors, you may find an Osprey book about them. The name is precisely "The Moors and the Islamic West". Also take notice of the several osprey books about the Christian Reconquista, and many other from other publishers besides the ones that are online (look at http://libro.uca.edu/).

Of course, I'm sure there must be numerous books about the subject in French, although if you could read either Portuguese or Spanish you would find much more info on the subject.



Edited by Sikander - 13-Dec-2007 at 17:29
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Pinguin what you say is not entirely correct. Early Moors were not black that is for sure, they were Kabyl people from N. Africa. But later during the 12th century Almohads and Almoravids came from further South. Some actually think they were from Senegal. They are said to have been Berber people, the Berber nowadays in places such  as Mali and Niger are locally called "white" but they are surely "black" from an American perspective. The point is that it took three generations in both case for the Almohads and the Almoravids to conquer Morocco and finally cross the straights by that time, most of their army was looking much more like nowadays Kabiles. In this case the little interest of racial issues is even clearer than usual as they were all veiled!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 02:09
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Pinguin what you say is not entirely correct. Early Moors were not black that is for sure, they were Kabyl people from N. Africa. But later during the 12th century Almohads and Almoravids came from further South. Some actually think they were from Senegal. They are said to have been Berber people, the Berber nowadays in places such  as Mali and Niger are locally called "white" but they are surely "black" from an American perspective. The point is that it took three generations in both case for the Almohads and the Almoravids to conquer Morocco and finally cross the straights by that time, most of their army was looking much more like nowadays Kabiles. In this case the little interest of racial issues is even clearer than usual as they were all veiled!
 
Yes, it is correct that there were expeditions of Blacks during the 12th century to Spain. They were send there to clash with the Christian in a period when the Moors were already in throuble in Spain. However, those Blacks troops are not the Moors of Spain. The Almoravide invasion was just the last chapter in the time of glory of Al-Andalus.
 
Now, Christians and even Muslims were so shocked that foreigners invaded Spain that was one reason for the Christian campain that pushed Moors out of Spain.
 
If you ask me, who where the Moors of Spain I would say Spaniards+Arabs+Kabyles. But if you ask who where the Almoravides, I would have to say they were a mixture of north Africans that included in theirs ranks some black troops. Blacks culturally Moor.
 
The racial issues are not interesting, really. Except when some people want to trick other people that don't know history.
 
In fact, would you say that because the British army has Gurkas, British are East Asians?  Would you then conclude that British culture is based in the Samurais of Japan?
 
Well, that's what Afrocentrism want to do with the Moors of Spain.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 14-Dec-2007 at 02:12
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Originally posted by asianprince

[
 
 
Just to clarify:
 
I'm from France and am of Asian descent. I'm 19 yrs old. My dad is Chinese and my mom is French, so I'm definatly NOT Afro-Centric. (Neither Euro-centric, I'm about facts backed by evidence.)
 
I didnt ask to question to demonstrate that whites where once subordinated to black people.
 
Like you said, I've heard Afri-centrics debating this and I'm just very intrested in the Moors and want to know more about them.. Because before I heard the replies in this thread, I thought that was highly unlikely. Because, if according to those Afro-centrics, the moors were black, which means African cilivilizatons were very powerfull, then how did the Spanish/ Portugese started tge slave trade so fast after the reconquista. So it doesnt makes sense that they were black.
 
Anyways, thanks for all the replies. They been very helpfull and now I have a better understanding about the Moors.
 
Cheers.
 
Sorry if I was rude.
 
Now, if you live in France, I bet the influence of pseudo-history must be strong in there, particularly Afrocentrism. I have heared about it before.
 
Now, for knowing the Moors of Spain, the best is to study the history of Spain, particularly Al-Andalus. Also, in clasic like the Poem of Mio Cid and in the writings of King Alphonse X the Wise, there are interesting descriptions about the Moors written by theirs contemporary.
 
Regards
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 14-Dec-2007 at 02:18
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Originally posted by Maharbbal

Pinguin what you say is not entirely correct. Early Moors were not black that is for sure, they were Kabyl people from N. Africa. But later during the 12th century Almohads and Almoravids came from further South. Some actually think they were from Senegal.
 
I have heard this about the Almoravids, and I was about to claim they were Negroid in this thread, but I wasn't able to find a single source to back it up with, so I abandoned the notion in favour of them being Berbers.
 
I think you're wrong about the Almohads though. I don't know the primary source material, but judging from what I've read it's not disputed that they were Berbers from the Atlas mountains, which is about as far north as you get in Africa.
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Pinguin, I don't agree with you, the Almoravids bosses were black or at least much darker than the rest of their troops.
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Originally posted by Maharbbal

Pinguin, I don't agree with you, the Almoravids bosses were black or at least much darker than the rest of their troops.
I also heard they where hardcore-muslims of that time, they forbiden making statue's of people orso and they did destroy many statues in Al andalous.

Doesnt the legendary spanish hero "El Cid" appear somewhere in this period because of the almoravid invasion?
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Yes, Rodrigo (or Ruy) Diaz de Vivar apeared by this time. He was Prince Sancho's friend but after the Prince's death his brother, Afonso VI, cast Rodrigo away from the Court. He then proceded to live a life of mercenary, fighting for the king (malik) of either Zaragosa of Valencia, I'm not that sure which one was it.
Eventually he was able to carve a fief of his own in Valencia, was recognised as Count by Afonso VI, resisted the Almoravids and died in battle in the last years of the XIth century.
One must note that the Almoravids first came as "saviours" against the conquering Christians, but then started to conquer all of the allied Andalusian kingdoms, except for Zaragosa who resisted the invasion.
El Cid was to become the main example of bravery and, most of all, of what a self made man was able to achieve, and soon northern european noblemen followed on his footsteps and came to Hispania. Of of them became the father of Afonso VII of Len-Castile; the other became the father of Afonso I of Portugal.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 19:04
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Pinguin, I don't agree with you, the Almoravids bosses were black or at least much darker than the rest of their troops.
 
There were some Blacks among the Almoravids. However, those troops were so much hated by locals that later they start to despict every Moor as Black.
How common were Blacks between the troops? Not very common I am afraid, because there are some curious quotations of the time.
 
For instance, King Alphonse X the wise wrote there was a general among the Moors that was "black as the back of a pot".... I bet if Black Subsharan were more common among the Moors in Spain, all would fit that description, and Alphonse had wasted so much methaporic language to describe him.... Wink
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 14-Dec-2007 at 19:06
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OK, let us discard the notion that a) the Moors were "blacks" (shades of Shakespeare and the Blackamoor Othello); b) that the later the arrival onto the Iberian peninsula the "darker" the invaders; and c) the original Moorish culture was Arabic. Search as hard as one might the many illustrated manuscripts--including the famed Libro de Ajedrez of Alfonso el Sabio--you will find that only dress distinguished between Cristiano, Moro, Berbero, and Judio. In fact, when Tarik crossed the straits in AD 711, his forces while having an Arab nucleus was composed mainly of troops from the Maghrib. What also must be kept in mind that as the Visigothic kingdom disintegrated a significant percentage of the Celt-Iberians working the large estates in the south in conditions hardly distinguishable from slavery converted to Islam. Now when one speaks of Al-Moravids and Al-Mohads one is not addressing ethnicitiy but speaking of different defintions of Islamic orthodoxy--much in the same manner as we employ the term Wahhabi to identify Saudi orthodoxy. Both of the groups were indigenous to North Africa and reflected the political struggles of Fez. To be blunt. in the art of the Iberian peninsula one does not encounter black visages in art until very late in the 14th century and more in Portuguese art than in that of Castille.
 
Certainly. in architecture and art, what was expressed in Spain had scant relationship to the Arabic in the East and was quite distinct [often an adaptation of the late Roman]. I was often amused by American tourist considering the Alcazar of Seville as a remnant of the Moors, when in actuality it was built by Peter the Cruel in the 14th century. Certainly the name Mozarabe confused them and the classification of Mudejar threw them for a loop. The former was the term applied to Christians who lived under Muslim  rule while the latter identified Muslims living under Christian rule. Besides, the people of the peninsula were not geographically challenged and when they spoke of los Moros they were identifying North Africa and as many have intimated naming the old Roman province of Mauretania.
 
Now as to the contemporary use of the term "moreno" in the Spanish language you will find geographic distinctions so that its use in the context of Andalusia today is quite different from usage in Cuba and Puerto Rico.


Edited by drgonzaga - 15-Dec-2007 at 13:54
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 12:34
Originally posted by drgonzaga

...Now as to the contemporary use of the term "moreno" in the Spanish language you will find geographic distinctions so that its use in the context of Andalusia today is quite different from usage in Cuba and Puerto Rico.
 
Excelent post drgonzaga!
 
Just to add that, according to the dictionary of RAE which is the official Spanish language dictionary, the meaning of "moreno" is:
 
moreno, na.

(De moro y -eno).

1. adj. Dicho de un color: Oscuro que tira a negro.

2. adj. Dicho de la piel: En la raza blanca, de color menos claro.

3. adj. Dicho del pelo: En la raza blanca, negro o castao.

4. adj. Dicho de una cosa: Que tiene un tono ms oscuro de lo normal.

5. adj. coloq. Dicho de una persona: negra. U. m. c. s.

6. adj. Cuba mulato (‖ nacido de negra y blanco, o al contrario). U. t. c. s.

7. m. morenillo.

8. f. Gresca, pendencia.

9. f. Hogaza o pan moreno.

According to the dictionary, moreno means dark (1), and with respect to the skin it says (2): "In the white race of a color not very light" LOL.

It is used with respect to black people sometimes, but in a "coloquial" or informal manner (5). Sometimes as a joke.
 
Only in Cuba and other Caribbean countries they call "morenos" to Black people and particularly mulattoes (6).
 
Now, White people of the United States or even Germany are called "morenos" given they have dark eyes and hair. Southern Iberians and Italians are usually called "morenos", too. Besides Gypsies and Amerindians usually call themselves as "morenos" with pride.
 
So, there is just a problem of stretching meaning in here. In the same way the term "Moro", there is a tendency of twisted meaning and suplanting people.
 
 
 
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Indeed. On a lighter note, one of my favourite metal bands is a Spanish (from Madrid mostly) group called "Dark Moor", and I suppose this is to imply a sort of double darkness ("moro oscuro"?).

http://static.metal-archives.com/images/5/6/8/568_photo.jpg

As you can see the band consists of morenos.

Edited by Reginmund - 15-Dec-2007 at 13:03
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Just to add a further linguistic note, moreno -na, morenito -ita, is also a term of endearment both in Andalusia and the Spanish Caribbean. Those familiar with classic Cuban guarachas (the original salsa music) and exponents such as the late Beni Mor and Celia Cruz, and the still living Celina Gonzalez would note such usage. It occurs as well in the Zarzuelas of Spain as noted in the famous air, El Relicario, with its refrain:
 
Pisa morena, pisa con garbo
Q'un Relicario, q'un Relicario me voy hacer
Con el cachito de mi capote
Q'haya piso, q'haya piso tan lindo pie
 
Jos Padilla (1918)

From the above one will also understand where Louis B. Mayer got the name for his exotic Swedish star, Greta Garbo. Hollywood was heavily into exotic Spanish during the 1920s!
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Smile
 
I am of Spanish descent living in Texas, and I always get a double take from the locals.
 
"you don't look Mexeeecan"
 
I am Spanish
 
"But don't Spaniards look like mexeecans?"
 
Unless there has been some change, the Gibraltar straights seemed to form some genetic barrier in genetic analyses. Please correct me if I am outdated.
 
There was a rather large deportation of moors/moriscos, converted and not converted around 1609 to modern day Morrocco. Supposedly the great remaining majority.
 
The Islamic conquest was political and cultural dominance, but did not appear to be one of great colonization.
 
(the re-moslemization / south american migration put aside over the last 15 yrs) most Spaniards are overwhelmingy native Iberian, white, but generally not "nordic" appearing. 
 
Throw in 5-10% V-goth mainly up north, some Greek and Punic on the coast, Roman, diaspora Jews, and a  few berbers down south, and you have your phenotypic generalities which apply less year by year.
 
 


Edited by Pelayo - 14-Jan-2008 at 09:32
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Originally posted by Pelayo

Smile
 
I am of Spanish descent living in Texas, and I always get a double take from the locals.
 
"you don't look Mexeeecan"
 
I am Spanish
 
"But don't Spaniards look like mexeecans?"
 
Unless there has been some change, the Gibraltar straights seemed to form some genetic barrier in genetic analyses. Please correct me if I am outdated.
 
There was a rather large deportation of moors/moriscos, converted and not converted around 1609 to modern day Morrocco. Supposedly the great remaining majority.
 
The Islamic conquest was political and cultural dominance, but did not appear to be one of great colonization.
 
(the re-moslemization / south american migration put aside over the last 15 yrs) most Spaniards are overwhelmingy native Iberian, white, but generally not "nordic" appearing. 
 
Throw in 5-10% V-goth mainly up north, some Greek and Punic on the coast, Roman, diaspora Jews, and a  few berbers down south, and you have your phenotypic generalities which apply less year by year.
 
 
 
 
Most Spaniards today could best be described as "Western Mediterranean": dark hair, olive skin, medium height; similar in appearance to Italians and Greeks.
As a frequent traveller between Spain and the UK, I have noticed that Spanish women tend to have wider hips and fuller buttocks than Northern Europeans women.
Some Spaniards indeed have fairer hair and eyes and could be confused with northerners, and others could be indistinguishable to Moroccans.
You are right that with recent immigration, in 20 years there will be native-born Spaniards of an even wider-range of physical appearances. The intermarriage rate between natives and immigrants is very high so there will be plenty of mixtures in the following generations.
 
As for the genetic contribution of Moors, applying common sense, the percentage of North African Berbers would be far greater than that of Middle-Eastern Arabs, although the latter held cultural dominance.
As in any wave of migration, usually the number of migrants are far inferior compared to the native inhabitants.
  
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Come on people, is this stereotyping or not? Even in Sevilla, "olive" skin meand gitano! If any statement can be made it is that you can not identify the typical Spaniard. And, Pelayo, please no more jokes on Texas speech, unless you are speaking of OklahomaCool...if there is one trait that is not Spanish, it is red hair! Carrot tops and freckles are viewed as the product of the "evil eye", yet the average Spaniard is of medium complexion and auburn hair with light brown eyes. Another interesting characteristic north of Madrid is the tendency of children to be blond for the first six or seven years of life with the hair gradually darkening to brown. Generations ago, the key to ethnic background could be deciphered from the surname. Interestingly, the Spanish -ez ending is the remnant of the Gothic -son. Thus, Gonzalo Gonzalez would be the equivalent of Gundaralf Gundaralfson. Nevertheless, one can assert that regional and class distinctions are of long standing and were captured admirably by Cervantes when he sketched the contrast between Don Quixote and his companion, Sancho Panza.
 
As an aside on Texas, Pelayo, you will find that Texans of long standing with Spanish ancestry will respond to nosy census takers with the descriptive "white" while those of more recent immigrant status will adopt either Mexican-American or Hispanic. And both of the latter will resent tremendously identification with darker skin types characterizing much of the recent illegal immigrant problem in the Valley. I just look at it as a remnant of the old limpieza de sangre phenomenon. For example, on sight I am not taken for "Spanish" among recent immigrants upon encounter, but the minute I speak while engaged in social work the situation changes immediately and I am either addressed as "Don" or "Maestro".
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My last name ends in -ez and was sandy blond until age 7. Now a medium brown. We have brown and hazel eyes. Our skin is light, but I tan well.  My family is from old Aragon. My grandfather fought for the republic.
 
 
 
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Originally posted by Pelayo

My last name ends in -ez and was sandy blond until age 7. Now a medium brown. We have brown and hazel eyes. Our skin is light, but I tan well.  My family is from old Aragon. My grandfather fought for the republic.
 


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