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Qing-Burmese wars in the 18th century

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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Qing-Burmese wars in the 18th century
    Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 04:47
I know just basic data about these conflicts, but no details. Can somebody provide us with more information on this IMO very interesting topic.
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2007 at 01:41
Yes, Sarmat12 . Its interesting,  Even more so because this is one of the many examples how sino centrism often distorts things. An unfortunate situation. Confused 
 
The article below is one of many ones that consider  the war as one of the worst Qing defeats ever and deals with the distortion of it :
 
Dai, Yingcong, "A Disguised Defeat: The Myanmar Campaign of the Qing Dynasty," Modern Asian Studies, Vol.38, No.1 (2004), pp.145-89.
 
As most modern scholars explain ; the Chinese annals have a tendency to use self - aggrandizing and cover-up language.  Now, in former decades, the claims in Chinese annals, were almost literally accepted. This has lead to a distorted and sino centric picture of the relations between China and others ( an example of such an outdated work :  John Fairbank, The Chinese World Order , 1968 ). A classic example is all the talk about the tribute/homage from overseas states that were claimed as Chinese vassals.  Nowadays, it's usually emphasized that this was self inflating language to disguise commercial contacts. ( see for instance : Wang Gengwu,  Rhetoric of a Lesser Empire 1983 ). In other words,  such Chinese suzerainity merely existed in the Chinese books.
 
Regarding the wars and militairy campaigns in general :  Here, of course, the  cover- up language was used too. The Burmese greatly defeated the Qing but the war is often euphemistically represented as ' not completely succesful campaigns that caused the Burmese to sue for peace and to accept Chinese suzerainity' . ( As if the Burmese destroyed the armies to accept China as overlord LOL )
 
The wars ( 1765-1769 )
In the 1760s the Konbaung state ( called after the dynasty )was the strongest in what is now Burma . Nevertheless , due to the internal war this state had with other Burmese states , Qing thought this was a very good moment to conquer Burma . Hence, Qing invaded this state 4 times in a row . The Burmese under king Hsinbyushin defeated  the 'Chinese ' while at the same time they  invaded Ayuthaya/Siam, conquered the Shan states, the Lanna kingdom, Laos , Assam in India etc. After having beeing defeated constantly ( with the danger that  the war was dragged in to Chinese territory) the Qing forces asked for peace on Burmese terms ( so not viceversa ).
 
Short summary of the battles
In 1766 Qianglong sent armies from Yunnan into Burma but they were defeated at Kentung. The Chinese viceroy commited suicide after the defeat.
 
In 1767 the next Chinese Viceroy was given free hand to defeat burma but also his armies ( including the Manchu elite troops ) were defeated , this time at Kaungtong. After that the Burmese took the offensive and entered Chinese terittitory where they raided places at will.
 
In 1768 the third Chinese viceroy Ming Giu ( son in law of the Qing emperor ) tried to do it. This time the Qing had a better chance because they now attacked Burma 'in the back' ,  since most of the Burmese armies were still bizzy with fighting Ayuthaya / Siam in the south( Ayuthaya was fighting for independence after  beeing conquered by the Burmese in 1767 ). Indeed, initially the Qing made some successes and they even came as far as 50 km of the capital Ava. Yet, , the Burmese came back in time and destroyed the Qing forces. Viceroy Ming Giu realized that the end was near, so he cut his pigtail and sent it per courier to the emperor and committed suicide.
 
In 1769 The Qing tried one more time. An immense stockade camp was built not far from the Chinese -Burmese frontier but the Burmese took the offensive and besieged it . The Chinese armies asked for peace on Burmese terms to prevent another slaughter ( like in 1768 ). The Burmese king Hsinbyushin was outraged that his generals, without asking his permission, let the chinese alive this time. Nevertheless, peace was signed in 1770 and both parties agreed to restore normal diplomatic and commercial relations.


Edited by Sander - 08-May-2008 at 09:47
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2007 at 04:57
Thank you very much for the information Sander. Thumbs%20Up 
 
It's amazing how strong was Burmanese military in the 18th century. May be you could refer me to some sources which describe Burmanese military art in the 18th century.
 
 
 
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 10:39
The Burmese army was amazingly strong in this period. The 4 invasions by Qing China were prompted by the piecemeal conquest of the three Thai kingdoms between 1764 and 1767 when the capital Ayyudthaya was raised to the ground.
 
While the Qings lost the wars, what the invasions did do was reduce the Burmese garrison in Thailand to a skeleton force and enabled the Thai to free themselves.
 
Maha Thihathura probably the most underated commander in world history, signed the peace treaty with the Chinese after repulsing the 4th invasion, without consulting the Burmese king (who was livid). He did so because he realised through shear weight of numbers, Burma couldn't keep beating the Chinese human waves. (rightfully) Fearing execution upon return to the capital, he invaded India and wrested a sizable chunk of India along the Burmese border from the Maharathas, who were at the height of their powers then. And had something to offer the king when he returned.
 
So Burma was pretty amazing, the total conquest of Thailand, 4 victories over the Qing and one over the Maharrathas all in few short years. Possibly the most power country on Earth for half a decade.
 


Edited by Paul - 29-Nov-2007 at 15:10
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 14:39
I wonder whether Chinese and Thais had any negotiations at that time in order to coordinate their efforts on fighting Burma?
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 15:22
I don't know. China had been attacked by Burma before the Thai conflict and a small area was occupaied by the Burmese. When they invaded Thailand the Chinese just saw the opportunity to strike back at the Burmese. The initial Chinese invasion captured a third of Burma, so Burma called virtually the whole army back from thailand to fight the Chinese still heavily outnumbered. There probably wasn't any co-ordination between the Thai resistance movement and the Chinese. The Burmese garrison was so small, a tiny Thai force was easily able to roll it over.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 17:01
What are the reasons for these stunning succeses of Burmese army? What made it so strong?
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 23:23
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Thank you very much for the information Sander. Thumbs%20Up 
 
It's amazing how strong was Burmanese military in the 18th century. May be you could refer me to some sources which describe Burmanese military art in the 18th century.
 
 
 
 This one for  example :
 
Dr. Michael Charney , South East asian warfare 1300-1900, Leiden, Brill Academic publishers, 2004
 
 
Charney lectures SEAN history at Michigan university. Apart from the above work, he has published  many  books /articles  on Burmese history /warfare.
 
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2007 at 03:34
Thanks again !
 
Looks like a great book !
 
Smile
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 05:06
I finally found some online siurces on the topic. Smile
 
 
The Gwe Shans at Okpo and the Gwe Karens near Pegu had been the prime movers in the great revolt of 1740. They went on to stir up further trouble. They had joined Alaungpaya, but their raids upon the northern Shan states had forced him to send a punitive expedition against them in 1758-59. The survivors took refuge in Mongmit and Hsenwi, and also in Menglien, a trans-Salween state. From these places they began to carry their raids across the Chinese border; and when the widow of their original leader, Gonna-ein, stirred up Kengtung to attack Kenghung, a dependency of China, the Yunnan government jumped to the mistaken conclusion that the Burmese were at the bottom of the trouble.

This suspicion was strengthened in 1764, when a Burmese army, marching against Siam, passed through Kengtung. Indeed the Burmese attacks on Siam had created general uneasiness; and when in the next year a Burmese general appeared on theSalween to collect tribute from some minor sawbwas, who were under Chinese protection, although they had paid it to both sides for centuries, they now complained to China. This was the immediate cause of hostilities. Early in 1766 the Yunnan forces invaded Kengtung. The Burmese fearing repercussions in northern Siam, which they still held, sent help to the sawbwa, and the Chinese were driven out. The ignominy of this repulse caused the Viceroy of Yunnan to commit suicide. His successor was given a free hand by the Emperor Chien-lung to take all necessary measures to reduce Burma to submission. Little did he realize that the exploits of Alaungpaya had given the Burmese an entirely new estimation of themselves. They had become a conquering race and feared no one on earth. Hence, when the Viceroy called on the Court of Ava to submit, Hsinbyushin replied by sending an army to invade Hsenwi.

The Chinese first tried the well-known route into northern Burma. They captured Bhamo by surprise and proceeded to attack the Burmese frontier force at Kaungton. Bdt the Kaungton stockade held until reinforcements arrived from Ava which enabled the Burmese to take the offensive and drive the Chinese back beyond Bhamo. Another Burmese army advanced to Waingmaw, south of Myitkyina, defeated a Chinese force at the Nammyin Creek and entered Chinese territory.

These perplexing reverses caused yet another change in the Yunnan government. A third Viceroy, Ming Jui, a son-in-law of the emperor, now took up the task and planned to launch a double attack on Burma, as soon as the rainy season of 1767 ended. The main Chinese army was to approach Ava through Hsenwi, Lashio and Hsipaw, and down the Namtu river. The second was to try the Bhamo route again. The attack nearly succeeded; large Burmese forces were tied up in Siam, where the situation was beginning to turn in favour of Paya Tak. Ming Juis army, marching by the southern route followed by the Manchu force a century earlier, when chasing Yung-li, defeated two Burmese armies, and got as far as Singaung, only thirty miles from Ava (February 1768). So critical was the situation that Hsinbyushin prepared to evacuate his capital. A third Burmese force, however, marched into Hsipaw and Hsenwi and cut the Chinese communications. When Ming Jui in difficulties began to retreat, his army was surrounded and suffered disaster. A few managed to cut their way out, but the Viceroy himself, unable to extricate his main body, sent his pigtail as a present to his emperor and committed suicide. The other Chinese army, which had entered Burma by the Bhamo route, should have rescued him; but, instead of pressing on down the Irrawaddy, its commander wasted time by besieging the famous Kaungton stockade, which defied all attempts to take it. His punishment at the hands of the Imperial Government was frightful.

In the following year the Chinese made their third and last attempt to reach Ava, this time by the Bhamo route again. But again they were held by the impregnable Kaungton stockade. They themselves built a great stockaded camp at Shwenyaungbin; but the Burmese took the offensive and stormed it. That was the end of the war. The Chinese asked for terms and a treaty of peace was signed at Kaungton in 1770.

The negotiations were conducted by the Burmese commanders and the terms of the treaty were not referred to the king for sanction. He was highly annoyed when he learnt that the Chinese were to be permitted to return home alive. But it was a good peace; it promoted the restoration of trade between Burma and Yunnan, and was the prelude to a long period of happier relations.



Edited by Sarmat12 - 21-Jan-2008 at 05:12
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 00:53
That's a really interesting article. well worth a download and read.
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