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Poll Question: ww2 planned german invasion of uk, would it have worked
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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: german invasion
    Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 23:06
Originally posted by Panther

Originally posted by Justinian

I think you underestimate the germans.  If they can land, remembering the british have not had time to build any kind of ground defence or train troops to man it, I see no reason why they can't move inland.  With air superiority they can get supplies to the beachhead.

 
The only problem i see in that unlikely scenario, would still be transporting supplies and materials across the channel too keep any offensive going. The basic problem was that there simply was not enough specialized landing boats and the ones the Germans had planned to use for sea transport by that time (River barges), were absolutely inadequate for the task of even staying afloat in relatively calm waters. A kid with a pea shooter would have presented more then enough of a problem for their transports, especially the nearer they got to the British coast line. The RAF may have been neutralized for a time, but the RN was still pretty much located in and around Britain in force. Can't remember the figure of warships she had close by, but for some reason i want too say roughly 1,000 warships of all types? Battleships, destroyers and destroyer escorts, aircraft carrier's and aircraft carrier escorts and subs... just too name a few.
 
I also don't believe the Germans could have supplied the troops from the air, which was tried about a year and a half later in a combat situation, and with disasterous results for their sixth army.
Okay, I see where you are coming from.  Now, if the british have no defence to speak of, and the royal navy has been neutralized-air force keeps it away from landing craft/supply ships, then the germans are going to be able to land troops and equipment, it will just be slowly.   Now I do concede your point that the germans had no proper landing craft to use.  However, if you are landing unopposed that should not matter.  Now once ashore there is nothing stopping the germans from marching right inland except for supplies.  They should be able to go a couple of days before their initial supplies run out (not refering to heavy equipment here, like tanks just the regular infantry soldier) by that time the heavy equipment should be coming ashore along with fresh supplies. 
 
This is all complete speculation of course, but that is my take on the situation.  If those two factors I mentioned have been met:   RAF has been eliminated and the british/french soldiers at dunkirk had not escaped.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 23:08
Originally posted by Justinian

Hmm, couldn't vote.  Challenger- could you post a link or something with regards to that wargame, that sounds just fascinating.  I would love to know who the respective generals were for the brits and germans. 



I really can't, I'm afraid. It was before the computer age! Embarrassed
I've Wikie'd "Operation Sealion" and it says that the RMA Sandhurst conducted a wargame in 1974. This could be what I was thinking of [I saw it in monochrome] and I'm fairly certain Adolph Galland was one of the participants.  Sorry.
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 23:22
Originally posted by Challenger2

Originally posted by Justinian

Hmm, couldn't vote.  Challenger- could you post a link or something with regards to that wargame, that sounds just fascinating.  I would love to know who the respective generals were for the brits and germans. 



I really can't, I'm afraid. It was before the computer age! Embarrassed
I've Wikie'd "Operation Sealion" and it says that the RMA Sandhurst conducted a wargame in 1974. This could be what I was thinking of [I saw it in monochrome] and I'm fairly certain Adolph Galland was one of the participants.  Sorry.
LOL  No worries.  Galland huh?  Interesting.
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Posts: 818 		  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 23:51
Justinian, i guess i always think about the Afrika corps. and their constant screaming for supplies from a tone deaf OKW in instances like this. Now, i know it was just a matter of priority that hitler would not have ignored sealion if it had gone ahead as planned, like he ignored the African campaign. Yet, it still seems reasonable to my mind however, that given his other logistic fiascoes, this would have been just anothr disaster in the magnitude of Stalingrad! Anyways, when he/OKW did see fit too try and resupply them, it was often a big gamble that the transports wouldn't run into the RN in the Med. Hence... my position on why i think the British would have had a field day in blasting them out of their own home waters.
 
Anyways, after giving your hypothetical thought a little more consideration, given the effort of what was required too neutralize both the RN and RAF... it's a darn good thing hitler passed up the opportunity of developing the A-bomb (Or let the opportunity pass him by). If they would have vigorously pursued the developement of the weapon, and perhaps it wouldn't had been ready for use in 1940, then i am 99% certain he would have somehow used against the British in one way or another before war's end?
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 06:31

Ah, thanks for mentioning that, yes the impact of supplies on the afrika korps was quite large.  Your position is certainly logical, the royal navy played havoc with german and italian supply ships trying to run the gauntlet to africa.  And this being speculation you could certainly be completely right.  I agree with you there, if the royal navy is free from the threat of the luftwaffe the german army, wherever it is, is to put it rather bluntly screwed.

Oh god I am with you there, it just gives me shivers thinking about the possibility of the nazis' with atomic weapons.Hard%20Working  ( perhaps that emoticon does not quite express the emotion of fear but it looks accurate enough)  Europe was so devestated after WWII; with atomic weapons being launched it would have been ten times worse, which is hard to fathom.  With the nazis', they were so damned irrational, I can't say for certain but my gut feeling would be the nazis' would have absolutely used the atomic weapons on the british/americans, any and everyone else they were fighting.  If in the end hitler ordered people to completely destroy the german infastructure then dropping an atomic weapon on others is not much of a leap at all.  The various sources I have read (can't remember any specifically of course but) seem to talk about 43'/44' as a date when the nazis' would have developed atomic capability if they had followed through on researching it, though if the flight of the jewish scientists had not occured it very well could have been developed by 40'.



Edited by Justinian - 05-Nov-2007 at 21:42
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Posts: 362 		  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 12:55
The Germans could have defeated the U.K. as long as they could have crossed the English channel, running the blockade, and either receive airdropped supplies, or live off the land. Defeating England could have ensured a German victory, when England was all subjugated, then they could make their assault on the U.S.S.R with the bulk of the army and on a 1 sided front.
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Posts: 232 		  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 20:19
The Germans could never have staged a successful invasion of the UK during World war II.   Their best chance was in 1940 after the fall of France. They had not anticipated this option and were simply not  equipped, prepared  or ready when the opportunity presented itself.
 
They would not have been able to land enough troops ashore at the vital time to ensure success. Their army was their "ace" card but they could not use this ace to it's best advantage.
The Royal Navy was Britain's "ace" card, it was concentrated in home waters and for the first time in the war was available for use in large numbers in a single area of ocean.  Vunerable to air attack yes, but the Luftwaffe's performance against warships in World War II was pitiful at best and nowhere near the level of the Japanese. Massive AA defence by the concentrated ships would have led to massive German air losses.
 
Not attacking Russia would not have changed anything. Great Britain only got stronger and stronger as the war went on. In December 1941 No UK divisions were in the far east to face Japan but 21 Infantry & 6 Armoured Divisions were on home soil
 
As I have said, the German army could not be placed on UK soil in the numbers required to ensure victory. Thank god!!


Edited by aghart - 02-Nov-2007 at 20:20
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Posts: 994 		  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 23:16
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

The Germans could have defeated the U.K. as long as they could have crossed the English channel, running the blockade,


Well, yes, the 'trick' was getting across the English Channel.  Without having had to cross a large body of water, there's little doubt that the Germans could have defeated the British.

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

and either receive airdropped supplies,


Yes, air supply could have been a major factor.  The Germans supplied by air large bodies of troops who were cut off on the eastern front, e.g. in front of Moscow after the Russian winter counterattack.  They did so for extended periods of time as well.  All the more reason why they needed uncontested air superiority over the Channel and landing areas.


Originally posted by Sun Tzu

or live off the land.


Live off the land?!?  I doubt they would have found sufficient small arms ammunition (not to mention artillery shells) to sustain offensive operations for long by 'living off the land'.

 

Edited by deadkenny - 02-Nov-2007 at 23:17
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Posts: 994 		  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 23:21
Originally posted by aghart

The Germans could never have staged a successful invasion of the UK during World war II.   Their best chance was in 1940 after the fall of France. They had not anticipated this option and were simply not  equipped, prepared  or ready when the opportunity presented itself.


That sums it up pretty well as far as I'm concerned.  I would just add that they 'missed' their chance in 1940 by letting the BEF 'get away' at Dunkirk, as well as by their lack of preparation and 'wait and see' attitude regarding Britain continuing the war in the wake of the fall of France.
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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 00:39
Originally posted by deadkenny

Live off the land?!?  I doubt they would have found sufficient small arms ammunition (not to mention artillery shells) to sustain offensive operations for long by 'living off the land'.
I would assume he means live off the land as in food supplies.  Living off the land in a literal sense.
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Posts: 994 		  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 15:56
Originally posted by Justinian

I would assume he means live off the land as in food supplies.  Living off the land in a literal sense.


Yes, that is more or less what I assumed he meant.  However, I was emphasizing the point that, first this wasn't the 'Napoleonic' era, where other than food the troops only needed 'raw' gunpowder (which could be made) and metal to melt down for musket balls.  In order to sustain offensive operations the Germans would need a supply of ammunition, fuel, spare parts etc. that would not likely be attainable locally.  Further, given British plans to deliberately spill oil off the coast and set it alight, and use poison gas etc. I doubt the Germans would have captured many fully stocked grocery stores or 'larders'.  More likely something of a mini scorched earth policy would have been followed in the immediate landing areas.  It is pretty clear that the Gemans would have needed to sustain some sort of supplyline back to the mainland, via sea and / or air, to successfully hold and expand their beachheads.
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 17:53
^^ Agreed.
 
Could you lead me to some sources about this oil spill the brits planned to use if necessary?  The bulldog really is the perfect mascot for the british character isn't?


Edited by Justinian - 03-Nov-2007 at 17:53
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Posts: 572 		  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 10:50
its a good job we are such stuborn so and so`s really, if the british had have stood by, europe would not be liberated to this day imho.
justinian, tricks, traps and eternal underestimation by anybody and everybody is the story of this nation and the ultimate secrets of its success.
The only country that never to do that is america who for some insane reason are underestimated by tin pot regimes across the world.
Its the secret of the anglo-american bond i think, a mutual respect, and anyone who has underestimated either in the past has paid the price for it.
the axis powers included.
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Posts: 994 		  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 13:48
Originally posted by Justinian

^^ Agreed.
 
Could you lead me to some sources about this oil spill the brits planned to use if necessary?  The bulldog really is the perfect mascot for the british character isn't?


I'm not sure if you are looking for more 'details' regarding the development, or a simple general 'description'.  Probably the most 'accessible' source is in the 'Battle of Britain' volume of the old Time-Life series of books on WWII.  There is of course material on the internet, including the ubiquitous Wiki.
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Posts: 994 		  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 14:02
Originally posted by aghart

...Vunerable to air attack yes, but the Luftwaffe's performance against warships in World War II was pitiful at best and nowhere near the level of the Japanese. Massive AA defence by the concentrated ships would have led to massive German air losses....
 
The AA defenses of ships operating without aircover consistently proved inadequate against attacking aircraft.  The experiences of the RN in operating near Norway and then later near Greece and Crete offer 'evidence' which appears to contradict this claim.  It is true that much of the Luftwaffe lacked specific training in anti-shipping attacks, however, the Germans did have some 'specialized' units.  IF the Germans had established air superiority over the English Channel and landing areas, then it is pretty clear that the RN would have suffered heavy losses when they intervened to stop the invasion forces.  I have little doubt that they would still have done as much.  They accepted relatively heavy losses operating around Greece and Crete in order to support the army, and there was obviously much less on the line there than there would have been in a hypothetical invasion of Brtain itself.


Originally posted by aghart

...Not attacking Russia would not have changed anything. Great Britain only got stronger and stronger as the war went on....


The difference would have been that the Germans could have and presumably would have concentrated their development and production on air and naval assets as well as WMD's rather than on building up, supplying and re-building the army fighting in the east.  That, plus they would have been free to commit sufficient forces to the Med to potentially defeat the British there.  With a combination of longer range fighters and heavy bombers and more and better u-boats and also having suffered defeat in the Med and possibly the Middle East as well, it's not clear that Britain could have continued the fight.  However, IMHO they would never have accepted 'occupation', so perhaps a battered Britain would be forced to effectively 'drop out' of the war - but the Germans would still not likely be landing in Britain itself.  Then there's the matter of what Stalin would be doing in the east in the meantime.  It's not clear that the Germans would have been free to concentrate indefinitely against Britain without having to face some conflict in the east.
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 14:35
The first problem of the invasion was the transports, air superiority and a strong navy to protect the transports...
The kriegsmarine was strong enough to protect the transports...if they concetrated their greatest ships they could protect them from sea...but of course if there was present the Royal Navy then there would be decided the whole war
At the beggining of 1940 I would tell that the RAF was as strong as the Luftwaffe
Once landed I think they would have no chance in going forward...and the english were ready for an invasion at any moment so they were prepared...no, the germans would not suceeded
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 17:50
Originally posted by Illirac

At the beggining of 1940 I would tell that the RAF was as strong as the Luftwaffe.


In terms of fighters the RAF had about 240 Spitfires and 372 Hurricanes, 24 Defiants  plus a few Gladiators and others, available to fight  about 800 Me109s and 240 Me 110s in France and  BeNeLux, and a further 100 fighters based in Norway  [mainly 110s]. Not to mention the 1,500 or so bombers.

Slight disparity in numbers, wouldn't you say? Smile
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 18:15
Originally posted by Challenger2

Originally posted by Illirac

At the beggining of 1940 I would tell that the RAF was as strong as the Luftwaffe.


In terms of fighters the RAF had about 240 Spitfires and 372 Hurricanes, 24 Defiants  plus a few Gladiators and others, available to fight  about 800 Me109s and 240 Me 110s in France and  BeNeLux, and a further 100 fighters based in Norway  [mainly 110s]. Not to mention the 1,500 or so bombers.

Slight disparity in numbers, wouldn't you say? Smile
The Messerschmitt Bf 109E and bf 110E yes were slightly supirior against the Hurricane Mk 1 but the Spitfire was slightly stronger...the Junkers Ju87 were slow, easy target...
And the RAF had the advantage of fighting over home territory.
 
And if I learnd something of history is that numbers does not do difference in battle


Edited by Illirac - 05-Nov-2007 at 18:17
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Posts: 994 		  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 18:36
Originally posted by Illirac

The Messerschmitt Bf 109E and bf 110E yes were slightly supirior against the Hurricane Mk 1 but the Spitfire was slightly stronger...


The 110 was most certainly not superior to the Hurricane.  The 110's were at such a disadvantage against either Hurricanes or Spitfires that they essentially got 'withdrawn' from fighter escort duty, which then fell solely to the 109's. 
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 21:45
Originally posted by deadkenny

Originally posted by Justinian

^^ Agreed.
 
Could you lead me to some sources about this oil spill the brits planned to use if necessary?  The bulldog really is the perfect mascot for the british character isn't?


I'm not sure if you are looking for more 'details' regarding the development, or a simple general 'description'.  Probably the most 'accessible' source is in the 'Battle of Britain' volume of the old Time-Life series of books on WWII.  There is of course material on the internet, including the ubiquitous Wiki.
Either or, thanks for the info.Smile
 
Challenger the numbers you listed are intriguing, may I bother you again for the source?Embarrassed
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