Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The kingdom of Nanzhao and Thai history

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The kingdom of Nanzhao and Thai history
    Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 18:59
The ancient kingdom of Nanzhao (Nanchao)  is believed to be the cradle of Thai people. Located in the modern Chinese Yunnan province. It was destroyed by Mongols, which caused Thai migration to Indochina.
 
What do we know about the culture of ancient Nanzhao?
 
 Since it was in close contact with China, is was supposed to have a sizeble Chinese influence. However, looking at modern Thailand, it's hard to uncover such an ifluence.
 
What is the reason for that?
 
I'm also interested where was the excatly the southern border of Nanzhao, I read that it actually reached the Bay of Bengal.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
jdalton View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 166
  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 22:11
I would also like to know more about Nanzhao. I know it was a rather large state for a long time, but its borders changed constantly because it was land-locked. I have a map somewhere that should show how far south it reached at its greatest extent, but I can't find it right now. Here's what Wikipedia says about Nanzhao:

"Originally, there were several Bai tribes that settled on the fertile land around Erhai lake. These tribes were called Mengshe (蒙舍), Mengsui (蒙嶲), Langqiong (浪穹), Dengtan (邆賧), Shilang (施浪), and Yuexi (越析). Each tribe had its own 'kingdom' known as a 'zhao'. In 649 AD the chieftain of the Mengshe tribe, Xinuluo (細奴邏) founded a kingdom (Damengguo 大蒙國) in the area of Lake Erhai. In the year AD 737, with the support of the Tang Dynasty of China, Pileguo united the six zhaos in succession, establishing a new kingdom called Nanzhao. The Nanzhao kingdom maintained close links with the Tang Dynasty ('Nan' is Chinese for south), and it was made up of both Bai and Yi nationalities. Some historians believe that the majority of the population was Bai, but that the elite was Yi. In any case, the capital was established in 738 at Taihe (modern day Taihe village, a few miles south of Dali). Located in the heart of the Erhai valley, the site was ideal: it could be easily defended against attack, and it was in the midst of rich farmland.

From 680 CE it came under Tibetan control. The Tibetans recognised their suzerainty after 703 and then took it under their control again from 750-794, when Nanzhao turned on their Tibetan overlords and helped China defeat their armies."

and

"In 750, Nanzhao rebelled against the Tang Dynasty. In retaliation, the Tang sent an army against Nanzhao in 751, but this army was soundly defeated at Xiaguan. (It was in the same year that the Tang suffered another serious defeat at the hands of the Arabs at the Battle of Talas in Central Asia; these defeats weakened the dynasty both internally and externally.) Today the General's Cave (two km west of Xiaguan), and the Tomb of Ten Thousand Soldiers (in Tianbao Park) bear witness to this great massacre. In 754 another army was sent, this time from the north, but it too was defeated. Bolstered by these successes, Nanzhao expanded rapidly, first into Burma, then into the rest of Yunnan, down into northern Laos and Thailand, and finally, north into Sichuan. In 829, Chengdu was taken; it was a great prize, as it enabled Nanzhao to lay claim to the whole of Sichuan province, with its rich paddy fields. This was too much for the Chinese, who lost no time in counterattacking."

This is really interesting. I always thought Nanzhao was just a breakaway Chinese kingdom, but it turns out it was ruled by the "hill tribes" who still live in Yunnan today! I' wonder if the Thai were just another of the Yunnanese tribes at the time, like the Bai or the Yi or whoever, and just happened to be the ones to move into Thailand at the right time to build their own powerful kingdom.

I would say the first place to look for what Nanzhao culture was like would be to find out more about the modern Bai and Yi.


Edited by jdalton - 31-Oct-2007 at 22:13
Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 23:38
Wiki calls Nanzhao a kingdom of Bai people. Yet, there are sources which say that it was actually formed by Tai/Thai people.
 
Can somebody help us to resolve this confusion?
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 20:37
The Chinese took control of Yunnan in the 2nd century. The Chinese described the people they found there as "Black Barbarians" (Wu Man) and report they spoke a Tibeto-Burmese language. It was the Wu Man who controlled the city of Nan Zhao in the 7th century.
 
Nan Zhao controlled the trade route to India, it's rule stretched to the northern border of Vietnam and it blockaded northern SE Asia. Many Northern Thai's became tributaries of Nan Zhao to trade, those that didn't often had to fight to maintain independence. Many Thai kingdoms too began to adopt Nan Zhao culture and model their governmental systems on Nan Zhao. It ended in the 9th century when Nan Zhao influence dimished in SE Asia.
 
 
The story of the Thai originating from China is a common one. However that Thais were long established to the south before Nan Zhao existed is completely provable. David Wyatt in his History of Thailand (the primary account in the English language) addresses this issue. The National Museum of Thailand now has a comprehensive exibition covering the prehistoric history of Thailand showing the development of the Thai people backed with archaeologic evidence denying any origin from China too.
 
 
Thai history is a tricly subject, it's also a virtually non-existent one in Thailand. The twentieth century doesn't exist in the Thai education system and what little is said changes as political interests change and different factions compete for power.
 
 
 
 
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 04:07
Interesting information.
 
However, I can't understand how Chinese reported that Wu Man spoke a Tibeto-Burmese language?
 
This term appeared only in XX century and ancient Chinese records never used these kind of terminology, anyway.
 
Besides, I strongly doubt that the fraze "Wu Man" can be translated as "Black Barbarians" from Chinese. At least it sounds totally different in modern pronouncation.
 
So, where Wu Man people Thai or not?
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
jdalton View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 166
  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 18:57
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Besides, I strongly doubt that the fraze "Wu Man" can be translated as "Black Barbarians" from Chinese. At least it sounds totally different in modern pronouncation.

This is just a guess, my Chinese is not very good, but could "wu man" be 烏蠻?
Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 19:18
Yes, I think you are totally correct. It was my embarassing mistake. Yes, Wu Man are Black Barbarians, who established Nan Zhao.
 
 
 
乌蛮
 
中国古代民族名。唐时分布于今云南、四川南部、贵州西部。为东爨、六诏和东蛮的主要居民。部落众多,或从事第四牧,或半农半牧,或从事农业。后与白蛮等族建立奴隶制政权的南诏国,受唐王朝册封
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.