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Topic ClosedBulgarian origins
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Poll Question: Bulgarians =Thracian descendants?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
9 [13.85%]
21 [32.31%]
4 [6.15%]
16 [24.62%]
4 [6.15%]
11 [16.92%]
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londoner_gb View Drop Down
Pretorian
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bulgarian origins
    Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 20:13
 
Originally posted by Yiannis

Londoner, let me caution you by saying that giving a racial twist to your posts is a sure sign that it will not take long before you're banned. So shape up when there's still time!
 
Do not use demeaning language towards other nationalities and also do not use capital letters to write your posts.
 
 
The "demeaning" language was used by Sviatoslav I of Rus;The fact that I cited him doesnt mean that I agree with the actions that followed his declarations!
 I will further clarify: I am glad that the Greek language was preserved through time!
I am a linguist myself-therefore the last person on earth wishing that this didnt happen!
I cannot see any ground for Your accusations!


Edited by londoner_gb - 06-Oct-2007 at 20:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 20:31
Bulgarians and "Thracs" are one and the same people. Here a wonderphul article called "Thracs are Bulgarians", it's in Bulgarian.
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 20:34
Thanks Ratnik.. BY the way I am also new here and the welcome from Yainnis does not seem to be the warmestShocked
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Posts: 80 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 20:47
I thought that Romanians were closer to Thracians than are Bulgarians. There is a theory that they area Romanized Thracians. Could it be than that Bulgarians are Slavicized Thracians too?
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 21:10
Originally posted by bgturk

I thought that Romanians were closer to Thracians than are Bulgarians. There is a theory that they area Romanized Thracians. Could it be than that Bulgarians are Slavicized Thracians too?

 The confusion about Thracian language came from the use of Greek letters to write it with.As early as 2500AD The Thracian language already was on the Eastern branch of the Indo-European languages with Greek  belonging to the Western branch .
Dacian considered just a dialect of Thracian was also in the Satem group
 


Edited by londoner_gb - 06-Oct-2007 at 21:42
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 22:28
Originally posted by akritas

As I see not a single reference as about your claims!!!
 
 
deleted, double post


Edited by Anton - 06-Oct-2007 at 22:38
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Posts: 1379 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 22:33
Anton, are the north western Bulgarians different from the rest of the country? I mean a difference related to Slavic influence culturally and phenotypically.

Edited by The Hidden Face - 06-Oct-2007 at 22:34
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 22:38
Originally posted by akritas

As I see not a single reference as about your claims!!!
 
 
you are continuing to play stupid. This is in Jiricek's book "History of Bulgarians", Chapter IV.
 
 
Should I cite the article of Charanis where he writes about intermixing of Bulgars, Avars and Byzantines? Or you will make a search in this forum where we disputed this already?


Edited by Anton - 06-Oct-2007 at 22:43
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 22:42
2 The Hidden Face 
Well, there is a difference between northeast Bulgaria and let say Macedonia or Thrace, but I do not know the explanation. How would you determine slavonic influence culturally and phenotypically?
 
I heard somewhere that the difference is explained by the fact that northeast of Bulgaria was the major place where Bulgars settled.  Than Dobruja was the place occupied by Cumans (if I am not mistaken).  Slavs settled actually more on the south in Macedonia and Thrace. But another explanation might be simply that northwest is more suitable of agriculture and hence the differences in character and culture.
As for Northwest, I couldn't propose any explanation. I remember there was a difference between east and west of the country in anthropological types and this was explained by different nations settled. I do not remember more.


Edited by Anton - 06-Oct-2007 at 23:24
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Posts: 246 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 22:50
Modern day Bulgarians are mainly made up of Pre-Turkic peoples, similiar situation with the Hungarians. There was mainly linguistic and cultural changes.
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Posts: 227 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:00
The best book on thracian language and history I have is Vladimir Georgiev's "Thracians and their language"/Владимир Георгиев "Траките и техният език", БАН, София, 1977 . Although a little bit outdated (1977 vintage) it's a serious attempt to analyze all of the available sources on the subject. The author makes parallels between thracian, dacian, ilyrian, armenian and phrygian languages as well as the modern bulgarian, albanian and rumanian. He finds that thracian (Besi language), dacian and phrygian are distinct, both phonetically and lexically(for example the thracian word for town: bria,like Mesembria,Poltymbria, dacian:dava*). It's an interesting and fundamental research.

*That however reminds me the thracian Pulpudeva for Plovdiv.
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:03
Originally posted by bgturk

I thought that Romanians were closer to Thracians than are Bulgarians. There is a theory that they area Romanized Thracians.
 
Maybe. But how would you determine how "closer" is this "closer" Smile 
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:14
Originally posted by The Hidden Face

Anton, are the north western Bulgarians different from the rest of the country? I mean a difference related to Slavic influence culturally and phenotypically.
 The population of Vrania,Pirot ,Nis etc. still struggle with their new Serb identity, despite their apparently successiful Serbisation in the end of XIX c. they  feel unaccepted and mocked by the "True Serbs"...
Up till the XVI c. the population of Srem/today Sremska Mitrovica in Serbia/ and the capital of Serbia itself-Belgrade was still with Bulgarian  ethnic consciousness... The massive exodus of Serbs from Kossovo after the second disaster at the hands of the Ottomans there brough them into what was to become their future capital and even further north into Voivodina...


Edited by londoner_gb - 06-Oct-2007 at 23:34
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:17
Originally posted by Tyranos

Modern day Bulgarians are mainly made up of Pre-Turkic peoples, similiar situation with the Hungarians. There was mainly linguistic and cultural changes.
 
Well, I do not know. It is supposed nowadays that Bulgars were much more numerous than it was thought before. Than I would be carefull to call Slavs as pre-Bulgar since they started to play role in south of Danube earlier than Slavs.
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Posts: 1379 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:23
Originally posted by Anton

2 The Hidden Face 
Well, there is a difference between northwest Bulgaria and let say Macedonia or Thrace, but I do not know the explanation. How would you determine slavonic influence culturally and phenotypically?
 
I heard somewhere that the difference is explained by the fact that northwest of Bulgaria was the major place where Bulgars settled.  Than Dobruja was the place occupied by Cumans (if I am not mistaken).  Slavs settled actually more on the south in Macedonia and Thrace. But another explanation might be simply that northwest is more suitable of agriculture and hence the differences in character and culture.


Thank you again Anton. Bulgaria seems to be very multicultural country indeed. From that point, I was wondering, what Bulgarian regions do you think that have most Thracian traces in their cultures.
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:23
Originally posted by Desperado

(for example the thracian word for town: bria,like Mesembria,Poltymbria, dacian:dava*). It's an interesting and fundamental research.

*That however reminds me the thracian Pulpudeva for Plovdiv.
 
I noticed the very same thingTongue As the proverb goes-"The exception proves the ruleWink..... maybeConfused


Edited by londoner_gb - 06-Oct-2007 at 23:24
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:29
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

As I see not a single reference as about your claims!!!
 
 
you are continuing to play stupid. This is in Jiricek's book "History of Bulgarians", Chapter IV.
 
 
Should I cite the article of Charanis where he writes about intermixing of Bulgars, Avars and Byzantines? Or you will make a search in this forum where we disputed this already?
You have the tendecy to mix all the writers when you have a lack of arguments.
 
Gimbudas.............not a sinle reference
Jirecek..................your link is in an language that I cant read
Charanis..............Thracian(as also Illyrian, Isaurian, Lycaonians) term has provincial meaning and not racial.(page 31,Ethnic Changes in the Byzantine Empire in the 7th Century)
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:29
Originally posted by The Hidden Face


Thank you again Anton. Bulgaria seems to be very multicultural country indeed. From that point, I was wondering, what Bulgarian regions do you think that have most Thracian traces in their cultures.
 
Not more than others in the region, I think. My point is that it is practically impossible to split the country into regions of influences. But if that would  be possible I would call mountain regions -- Balkan, Rodopi, Strandja.
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 23:51
Originally posted by akritas

You have the tendecy to mix all the writers when you have a lack of arguments.
 
looks like this is you lacking arguments.  
 
 
Gimbudas.............not a sinle reference
 
Gimbutas write about fuses of Thracians and Slavs (not in Balkans as I found now) in "The Origin of Indo-Europeans". Let us forget about her then.
 
Jirecek..................your link is in an language that I cant read
Tht is your problem. I provided you adequate translation with his conclusion about grammatics of Balkan languages including Bulgarian. We are not in a trial, we have friendly discussion.
 
Charanis..............Thracian(as also Illyrian, Isaurian, Lycaonians) term has provincial meaning and not racial.(page 31,Ethnic Changes in the Byzantine Empire in the 7th Century)
 
Charanis speaks about Avars and Bulgarians mixed with population of Byzantine Empire in the same article Ethnic Changes in the Byzantine Empire in the 7th Century:
Originally posted by Charanis

An episode described in the Miracula indicates that other invaders who Iwere not Slavs settled in the region of Thessalonica later in the seventh century. This is the episode involving Kouver a Bulgar whom the Khagan of the Avars had placed at the head of a mixed group under his domination. This group consisted of the descendants of Christian natives whom the Avars had carried away many years previously (about sixty years before, we are told) and the Avars, Bulgars, and other barbarians under the domination of the Khagan with whom these Christians had intermarried.

This is what I consider a support of your "amalgamation theory" by Charanis.

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Posts: 227 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2007 at 00:09
Originally posted by The Hidden Face


From that point, I was wondering, what Bulgarian regions do you think that have most Thracian traces in their cultures.

Nowadays, after almost 50 years of extensive urbanization it is impossible to talk about regions with distinctive anthropological features. But in the begining of the 20th century there were significant differenses in the phenotype of the populations of the different regions. There were even separate villages in which the population was very different anthropologically from its neighbours. Some considered such phenomenon as a result from the different minor ethnic groups (remnants of patzinaks, uzes, cumans, even goths) remaining relatively isolated in remote mountainous areas. I've always thought that the centre of slavic ethnic presence is in North-West Bulgaria, while the South-East and the Black Sea coast were predominantly with thracian/helenised/romanised population.
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