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The Paones.

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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Paones.
    Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 19:46
Originally posted by Cadmus

Dardania was an ally of the Illyrians, before that the Dardanians started out as Hellenes but they became Illyrinised after that.
 
Archaelogical evidence indicates that the Dardanoi were simply of mixed Illyrian and Thracian descent. Ancient Thracian names have also been found throughout all of Dardania, mostly in eastern Dardania. The word "Dardanoi" itself, is a derivation of an Illyrian word meaning "pear". This element has also been found in the toponymy of the Thracians.
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  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 19:55
Originally posted by Penelope

Originally posted by Cadmus

Dardania was an ally of the Illyrians, before that the Dardanians started out as Hellenes but they became Illyrinised after that.
 
Archaelogical evidence indicates that the Dardanoi were simply of mixed Illyrian and Thracian descent. Ancient Thracian names have also been found throughout all of Dardania, mostly in eastern Dardania. The word "Dardanoi" itself, is a derivation of an Illyrian word meaning "pear". This element has also been found in the toponymy of the Thracians.
 
 
Isnt there also one notion that they were Trojans?
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 20:39
Originally posted by Tyranos

Originally posted by Penelope

Originally posted by Cadmus

Dardania was an ally of the Illyrians, before that the Dardanians started out as Hellenes but they became Illyrinised after that.
 
Archaelogical evidence indicates that the Dardanoi were simply of mixed Illyrian and Thracian descent. Ancient Thracian names have also been found throughout all of Dardania, mostly in eastern Dardania. The word "Dardanoi" itself, is a derivation of an Illyrian word meaning "pear". This element has also been found in the toponymy of the Thracians.
 
 
Isnt there also one notion that they were Trojans?
 
Yes, some writers proposed a connection between the Dardanoi of the Balkans and the Dardans of the Troad, however, this idea has not been verified by historians.
 
Just a footnote. This supposed connection may have also derived from Greek Mythology. If you were to believe in Greek mythology, the city of Troy was supposedly founded by Dardanus, who was the son of Zeus and Electra. He is said to have been the eponymous ancestor of the Dardanoi.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 12:30
The Dardanians were allies with the Illyrians  in Alexanders campaign in Illyria , Clitus the Dardanian was Bardhyllus his son and Glaucias was a Taulantian (Illyrian) both were routed by Alexanders forces..
 
Now didn't Aeneas visited Illyria or Dardania after Troy....or did the Dardanians from Troy fled to todays Kosovo(Dardania) and established them selves there?
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 16:59
Originally posted by Cadmus

The Dardanians were allies with the Illyrians  in Alexanders campaign in Illyria , Clitus the Dardanian was Bardhyllus his son and Glaucias was a Taulantian (Illyrian) both were routed by Alexanders forces..
 
Now didn't Aeneas visited Illyria or Dardania after Troy....or did the Dardanians from Troy fled to todays Kosovo(Dardania) and established them selves there?
 
This mythological character is said to have left Troy with his family, and a group of outlawed Trojans to settle in Italy. He passed though Illyria, and kept going, eventually becoming the progenitor of the Roman people. However, we all know that Troy fell in 1148 bc, and Rome was founded in 753, which means that this is highly unlikely. 


Edited by Penelope - 06-Oct-2007 at 17:02
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  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 20:30
Originally posted by Penelope

Originally posted by Cadmus

The Dardanians were allies with the Illyrians  in Alexanders campaign in Illyria , Clitus the Dardanian was Bardhyllus his son and Glaucias was a Taulantian (Illyrian) both were routed by Alexanders forces..
 
Now didn't Aeneas visited Illyria or Dardania after Troy....or did the Dardanians from Troy fled to todays Kosovo(Dardania) and established them selves there?
 
This mythological character is said to have left Troy with his family, and a group of outlawed Trojans to settle in Italy. He passed though Illyria, and kept going, eventually becoming the progenitor of the Roman people. However, we all know that Troy fell in 1148 bc, and Rome was founded in 753, which means that this is highly unlikely. 
 
Yeah thats interesting, thanks. Well just for the sake of argument, the story of Aeneas could work, if you change it to his progeny creating Rome, though its possible an original city was there or around that area. King Latinius himself was supposed to be the son of Odysseus and is also central to the Roman foundation myth . I guess its fair to say these heroes existed in some form or another, and that some elements of truth is found within legend and what we now call Mythology. Now whether or not they fought Automadon men, Clones and gods remains to be seen, but I find it believable that these men existed in flesh and blood none the less
 
Another thing is well, the similarities caused by the Indo-European languages. Which one major theory places in South Eastern Europe/Balkans with Proto-Indo Europeans being placed in Anatolia/Asia Minor, this may explain certain things.


Edited by Tyranos - 06-Oct-2007 at 20:34
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2007 at 16:55
This article mentions the Philistines as settlers in Teucria , who came originally from Illyria as Dardanians way before Troy.
 
 
Now this seems a bit weird , but it can explain that Dardanus or his Dardanians originally came from Illyria ,and after Troy returned to their native land.
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  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2007 at 21:51
The Philistines are looking more and more likely to have been Achaeans .
 
New Research on: The Philistines

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Published: March 13, 2007

In recent years, excavations in Israel established that the Philistines had fine pottery, handsome architecture and cosmopolitan tastes. If anything, they were more refined than the shepherds and farmers in the nearby hills, the Israelites, who slandered them in biblical chapter and verse and rendered their name a synonym for boorish, uncultured people.

Archaeologists have now found that not only were Philistines cultured, they were also literate when they arrived, presumably from the region of the Aegean Sea, and settled the coast of ancient Palestine around 1200 B. C.

At the ruins of a Philistine seaport at Ashkelon in Israel, excavators examined 19 ceramic pieces and determined that their painted inscriptions represent a form of writing. Some of the pots and storage jars were inscribed elsewhere, probably in Cyprus and Crete, and taken to Ashkelon by early settlers. Of special importance, one of the jars was made from local clay, meaning Philistine scribes were presumably at work in their new home.

The discovery is reported in the current issue of The Israel Exploration Journal by two Harvard professors, Frank Moore Cross Jr. and Lawrence E. Stager. Dr. Cross is an authority on ancient Middle Eastern languages and scripts. Dr. Stager, an archaeologist, is director of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon, a Harvard project.

In the report, the two researchers said the inscriptions reveal, for the first time, convincing evidence that the early Philistines of Ashkelon were able to read and write in a non-Semitic language, as yet undeciphered.

A few pages on in the article, Dr. Cross and Dr. Stager were more emphatic about the inscription painted in red on the jar fragment made from local clay.

Perhaps it is not too bold to propose, they wrote, that the inscription is written in a form of Cypro-Minoan script utilized and modified by the Philistines in short, that we are dealing with the Old Philistine script.

Dr. Cross said in an interview that several signs in the Ashkelon inscriptions fit in with well-known Cypro-Minoan, in particular from artifacts recovered at sites in Cyprus and at Ugarit, in Syria. He said the script had some characteristics of Linear A, the writing system used in the Aegean from 1650 B. C. to 1450 B. C. This undeciphered script was supplanted by another, Linear B, which was identified with the Minoan civilization of Crete and was finally decoded in the mid-20th century.

We cant read the inscription, and thats true as well of Cypro-Minoan writing found on Cyprus, Dr. Cross said. We will need a lot more samples before we can think of deciphering it.

The two researchers and other scholars said it was not surprising that the Ashkelon inscriptions were in an Aegean type of writing. The biblical Philistines are assumed to have been a group of the mysterious Sea Peoples who probably originated in the Greek islands and migrated to several places on the far eastern shores of the Mediterranean.

We had no direct evidence of their early writing, Dr. Stager said. We knew they had weights and measures for trading commodities, even precursors of coinage. So we assumed they had some notation or writing system.

The locally made storage jar, bearing seven signs, was found several years ago buried under debris of a mudbrick building, which appeared to date to no later than 1000 B. C. After the 10th century, the Philistines borrowed their Israelite neighbors Old Hebrew script and alphabet then evolving from Phoenician writing.

By then, the Philistines and Israelites had been in such close contact that they appeared to have reached some degree of amity, though tradition never forgot Goliath as the bad Philistine.

Publication of the discovery coincided with an article in Archaeology, a popular magazine of the Archaeological Institute of America, reporting concerns that excavators dig and dig but neglect to publish their findings.

The article cited Dr. Stagers practices as a primary example, saying the projects slow publication rate was the reason the Israel Antiquities Authority had declined to grant Stager and his team a digging license since 2004.

In an interview, Dr. Stager said, There was never a denial of a dig license for our excavations at Ashkelon. He added that he had been strongly urged by Israeli antiquities officials to resume excavations this summer.

Political unrest and a plan to concentrate on preparing 10 volumes on excavation results, not a failure to obtain permits, Dr. Stager said, accounted for the sharp reduction in fieldwork since 2000. The first two volumes are to be issued this year, and five more volumes over the next five years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/sc...749&ei=5087%0A


Edited by Tyranos - 07-Oct-2007 at 21:51
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  Quote sunnyspot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 08:25
 
Basically, Paeonia will be found in today's Republic of Macedonia (any self respecting person will respect their right to be called whatever they want - Greek nationalists call it FYROM) - as I so rudely discovered some time ago).
 
The Paionians were allies of Troy. I believe that some of them served as Generals in the Macedonian army right down to the time of Alexander. I think Phillip of Macedon spent some time conquering the Paeonians - before making them the vanguard of his army. My guess is - they were probably Thracians.


Edited by sunnyspot - 22-Oct-2007 at 08:27
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 21:17
Originally posted by sunnyspot

Basically, Paeonia will be found in today's Republic of Macedonia (any self respecting person will respect their right to be called whatever they want - Greek nationalists call it FYROM) - as I so rudely discovered some time ago).


Exactly...The area is Ancient Paionia.

Foremost, we in historical macedonia call it FYROM. Simply, because we want, like others, to respect the fact that we use the name for ourselves (Makedones or Makednoi). End of story.

Originally posted by sunnyspot


I believe that some of them served as Generals in the Macedonian army right down to the time of Alexander.


There is no report on any Paionian Generals in the Macedonian army.


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  Quote sunnyspot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 08:14
 
But the Macedonians (who you call FYROMS) aren't being as pig-headed and as stupid as you about this.
 
As I surf the forums - and read all the garbage - having a "province" by that name - does not make you "Macedonians"! You are after all Greeks. So show these poor people some respect. You remind me of the Brits - and what they've done to the Irish, and my beloved Dublin down the centuries.
 
I hate colonial empires Unhappy  - they rob people of their heritage.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 11:49
Here's one Ariston brother of the Paionian king PatraiosExclamation
 
The rider on this coin was actually Ariston, the brother of King Patraios, who accompanied Alexander III of Macedon throughout his Eastern Campaign. Before one of the battles, probably that at Gaugamela, a Persian officer named Satropates appeared before the warriors and, "as was the custom", challenged them to single combat. Ariston accepted this challenge, threw him off his destrier, pierced him with his spear and then hurled the head down before the feet of Alexander with the words: "In my country a deed like this is rewarded with a gold cup."


Edited by Cadmus - 23-Oct-2007 at 11:52
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 15:08
Originally posted by sunnyspot

 
But the Macedonians (who you call FYROMS) aren't being as pig-headed and as stupid as you about this.



You'd better first learn to watch your expressions, before calling someone a pighead.

Originally posted by sunnyspot


As I surf the forums - and read all the garbage - having a "province" by that name does not make you "Macedonians"! You are after all Greeks. So show these poor people some respect.


Welcome to the real world. Yes, the whole North-central part of Greece is called Macedonia which includes the original historical Macedonia (Bottia, Pieria, Emathia) before Philips expansion.

No, it makes me since that is my tribal division or local naming if you prefer sir! If the fact that my grandfather is a native of Bottia, i come from the historical macedonia, being called makedonas from other greeks doesn't make me Macedonian, then what makes anyone else? I'm Macedonian and therefore Greek (as you said), like the islanders and other Greeks that have a name but are Greeks after all.

Get this straight. There are Greek Macedonians, Slavic Macedonians and even Albanian Macedonians in 2007. That should be respected and noone should have the monopoly of such a name.

As for respect you know, respect is a receiving and giving thing. You get respect and you give respect. When some people calls you african in a racial matter, does not respect the fact that this term is a shared one (because the different nations in a later than ancient geographical area) and does historical revisionism against you, you're not so eager to show this great respect you speak about.

However, there are people like Cadmus for example, who is a good mate from the other side of the border, who I welcome gladly as a Macedonian, since he focuses on the non-biased history of the area, respects the fact that this is a shared name and does not spend time insulting other people.


Originally posted by sunnyspot


You remind me of the Brits - and what they've done to the Irish, and my beloved Dublin down the centuries.
 
I hate colonial empires Unhappy  - they rob people of their heritage.
 
sunnyspot


I never said Alexander had the best reason to go to Asia. Don't mix things up. And specify what "like the brits" mean? Now, if you want to speak about robbery, I think you've missed the point here. It is the other way around.

Now, all these points are irrelavant and it is supsicious that you choose to mention it in this thread. You after all, have already done what you accuse the Greeks for. If you want to discuss about it open a new thread on the appropriate forum and do not hijack this one please.


Edited by Flipper - 23-Oct-2007 at 17:25


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 21:24
Please sunnyspot show some curtesy towards Flipper he is a very knowledgeable person and good friend of mine who does not deserve such blasphemous accusations you adress to him...besides he is a good friend of mine from the otherside to....Big%20smile
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  Quote Paion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 06:46
Due to the lack of evidence we are not sure if Paeonians of classical period were 'Illyrianized' or 'Thracized'? Or Paeonians were just a "mongrel" ethnic group between Illyrians and Thracians? Such questions will leave without proper question for long time as archeology does not put in light any material discovery which may threw some light on the questions we are interested for.
All what we can say for now is that Paeonians belongs to the oldest ethnic groups of Balkan. As a response against some Slav historians who likes to show Paeonians as their ancestors, I'd like to present thoughts of George Finlay on the matter:

"The Albanians or Arnauts, who are now called by themselves Skiptars, are supposed to be remains of the great Thracian race which, under various names, and more particularly as Paionians, Epirots, and Macedonians, take an important part in early Grecian history."
(~History of Greece under foreign domination~ By George Finlay, 1857, page 406)





Tut, tut. Such ingratitude after all the times I saved your life.
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